I'm not sure how to advise you. You are there in the situation and have better signals as to what is working and what is not. I would think that you would find that sometimes you are getting some indication that she likes something that you do for her.

It sounds like she is still seeing OM occasionally and that is keeping the addiction going and making her distant from you.

As far as spending time in the evenings, if she enjoys it then yes.

As far as Valentine's Day, go for it, try to make it special. Just be prepared for her to not be appreciative; don't expect her to be appreciative. Just do it cause you want to without getting anything back from her.

I think this is the hardest thing in Plan A; trying to stay cheerful and loving in the face of a lot of negativity. Hopefully, at some point you will see your wife peek through the fog and give you a little wink of encouragement.

You can try the EN sheet but just be prepared for refusal.

I think sometimes just the fact that you are reading books and trying to improve yourself, and them seeing it can have an effect. She should see you as motivated to change and confident that your marriage can be better than it ever was in the past. Remember, you are the man with the plan; she doesn't have a clue as to what she is doing.

legato, It was a horrible evening/night. When I got home she was in a bad mood. After we put the kids to bed, she said she was miserable and needed to go for a drive. 2 1/2 hours later she returned and was crying.
I told her I was there if she wanted to talk. She said " I want to make it work but just do not know how. I am here and going through the motions but I do not have any feelings for you. I feel like such a failure." I asked her if she has had any contact with the OM and she said "No, oh No. This is not about that."

I don't know what to do. Like you said earlier, I think she is still seeing the OM. I can't prove it and she denies it when ever I ask. I can ask her for NC with OM but she has to have the will power too, right? The other thing is that we haven't brought this out to our families yet. Would it be a good idea too. I get the feeling she is trying to make our relationship look like such a failure in order to take the spot light off the A.

I still practiced plan A pretty good last night I think. It just doesn't seem to be doing any good. I think the OM is keeping the addition going too.


Insight appreciated.

Thanks, options

So, I guess I am asking how do I handle the OM? I have never confronted him either.

I know I am hard to advise...(lol) but I really appreciate your insight. I feel as if I do not have a clue sometimes....This just hurts so bad too.

She definitely is not seeing clearly right now. This is so not like her either. My amature opinion tells me that she needs to be totally physically withdrawn from OM. That would mean quit job and move. I know she will not do that. She doesn't see OM as the problem. But I guess most alcoholics do not see the alcohol as the problem either. I just feel I am going to loose her unless some drastic change happens.

Or, could it be that she has dropped contact with OM and her being distant is something else?

options

I probablty would have said something like it's perfectly understandable why you don't have feelings for me because in the past I did not meet your needs. I want to change that. I've been doing some research and you can regain your feelings for me if I can learn to meet your needs. Will you help me learn how to do that? or something like that.

She may be having contact or maybe not. At any rate the fact that she came home and was crying is a good sign. If she had come home in a good mood I would have been very suspicious.

As far as no contact, she has to understand that that is how she can help to regain her feelings for you. Absolutely no contact for life. Then you can rebuild your marriage. Until she commits to NC the marriage cannot recover.

It's ok to talk to her about NC if she is open to the discussion but you can't demand NC; only explain to her why in your opinion it is necessary.

I don't know if she is open to Marriage Builders but you might lead her in that direction. It sounds like she wants to make this work but doesn't know how. You will have to judge her readiness for MB concepts.

All of the MB experts say that exposure is essential. I'm a little fuzzy on this. If she flat out refuses to commit to contact then exposure is probably necessary but it sounds like she is at least trying to diminish contact.

Keep posting as to developments and I will advise as best I can.

I don't know that confrontation with OM is necessary.

The fact that she is feeling depressed indicates possible withdrawl symptoms or feelings of guilt. In a way that is a good sign.

Make sure that you understand Plan A. Plan A is:

1. Discovering and learning to meet her most important ENs and

2. negotiating for absolute NC.

If after you have Plan A'd for a sufficient amount of time and she still refuses to make changes necessary for absolute NC then you Plan B is the next step.

So negotiating for NC in your case invoves persuading her that NC is necessary for recovery. Many WWs still want to remain 'friends'. This is not acceptable.

<small>[ February 08, 2005, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: legato ]</small>

Thanks legato. I really really really look forward to your insight. I wish I could repay you somehow. I will keep you posted.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I probablty would have said something like it's perfectly understandable why you don't have feelings for me because in the past I did not meet your needs. I want to change that. I've been doing some research and you can regain your feelings for me if I can learn to meet your needs. Will you help me learn how to do that? or something like that.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great advice. I just wish I would have thought of that in the moment. I think I will ask her to just listen to me as I tell her that. Not asking her to talk. Or, write it in a letter so she doesn't feel like she has to respond. I think I should also just stress my thoughts (MB concept) on why NC for life is essential. Good idea or not?

Also, she is a counselor and is not real open to counseling. I would love to get her into MB counseling. That would be a tough move though.

Also, she told me last night that she cannot function at work. And that she breaks down crying at different times of the day. Would that be a good sign? I am just looking for all the good signs I can....

options

Too bad that she's not open to counseling. You can get individual telephone MB counseling, you know.

It's kind of tricky introducing MB concepts because you have to try to avoid the temptation to 'educate' her; she might resent it.

Somehow you have to introduce the idea of NC whether you tell her that it's your idea or that you got it from MB. You may want to pick up a copy of "Surviving An Affair" just so your clear on how to go about this. I believe that you know without a doubt that NC is necessary so you should be able to state it with confidence. She will probably resist the truth and say that it's not about the OM but that doesn't change the truth. You can't demand NC but only try to persuade, gently by clearly stating your position.

Mostly, if you really saturate yourself in MB concepts then you are the expert and it will give you confidence in your plan.

Yes, I think the unhappiness on her part is a good sign although I'm sure that it hurts you for her to go through this. If you can be her friend and comfort her that is a big plus.

Like I say, you are on-site and the best one to decide on short term strategies. Also ask God to guide you in this. God hates divorce and infidelity so He is your best ally.

I would love for her to do MB telephone counseling. I will ask her to do that. I will be prepared for the "no" response though.

I hope her unhappiness is a good sign too. It is hard for me to be her friend/comfort her when she is unhappy like that because she does not really let me. She does know I am there if she needs me. I have said, " I will always be here for you." many times...

options

I was just thinking that I do know how to meet some of her emotional needs and that I have been trying over the past month to meet those needs but she has refused to accept my attempts. (Writing a letter about my feelings, emailing her at work, telling her about my feelings, telling her about my day)etc. I guess maybe in time she will accept them....

options

I was just thinking that I do know how to meet some of her emotional needs and that I have been trying over the past month to meet those needs but she has refused to accept my attempts. (Writing a letter about my feelings, emailing her at work, telling her about my feelings, telling her about my day)etc. I guess maybe in time she will accept them....

options

Are these the needs that you were not meeting before?

Sometime you may hit on something that you do right without even knowing. And she may say something to you about it, about how she appreciated it. Be looking for anything like that.

Also, as much as it hurts to talk about OM, see if she will open up and tell you what needs he met.

Yes, they are the needs I wasn't meeting before. I have been looking very closely to see if she gives me any clue to as to any appreciation and have not seen any.

Update from last night- We talked for about 20 minutes or so. She initiated it. None of it was positive from her.

She said things like "what we had is gone and it will never be the same or better than it was. It just can't be. I know myself better than anybody or any research and I am just done. I can't bring the feelings back. I don't know why you are here. I am such a failure. I failure of a husband and a failure of a mom. My feelings towards you didn't happen or change because of the A, the changed over a long period of time, over a couple years that I have not been happy. I remember talking to my friends over the past couple years ago about how unhappy I was. The nice (EN) things you have done over the past month have been great but it is a little to late for me."

That conversation last night killed me inside. I am trying to follow plan A but with all the negativity in that conversation it is hard to remain positive. I don't think I did any LB's in the conversation and just tried to reassure her that I am here and not giving up. We can make it work. I tried to get her to do MB counseling but she refused and admitted that the counselor would want to talk about the A and she doesn't want to do that.

This morning we had more small talk than normal but the goodbye before leaving for work was awkward. What to think?

I did not read through all posts, but in addition to Plan A, you need to expose her affair to people she cares about (her parents, yours, etc). This will make things more real to her in her fog.

You might have a hard time believing this but I hear good things here. First, she's talking to you. She feels that she can share some of the confusing feelings, or lack of, that are swirling around in her head. Second, she appreciates some of the things that you have been doing. This is very good, don't you think? Isn't this the kind of positive feedback that you have been looking for? Third, what she says is true that her feelings changed over a long period of time. That is why it is going to take some time for those feelings to return.

On the negative side, she say she doesn't know how to regain those feelings, that its too late. They all say this because they don't know about the Love Bank. But the good thing is that you do. You are sneaking deposits into her Love Bank without her knowing. You know that its not too late. If she says something like this again I would acknowledge what she has said but state your own view that it's not too late as far as your concerned; that you love her very much and intend on doing everything in your power to save your marriage. And for her not to worry about getting those feelings back, that that is your job to take care of those feelings. Tell her to sit back and relax and watch what happens. She will find herself falling back in love with you because you're going to become completely irresistible to her.

It sounds to me like you handled this very well. You did not initiate this R talk. You listened to what she said and even though I know it was very painful to hear you continued to listen without lovebusting. Good job!

Thanks again legato for your support. I needed it this morning... I really look forward to your insight.

You are right I did not see our conversation as being positive last night but after I read your post it made more sense to me. I felt good that she opened up to me even though it wasn't positive verbage.

Also, today I wrote her a love letter sharing my feeling with her. (I think I actually saw her peak through the fog....) She read it and started to cry and pulled me for a hug. It was short and not much but it is the first visible sign of hope that I have seen. Hopefully, some LB deposits are being made. Everyday, I keep following plan A and ask God for guidance.

Again, thanks for the support and I will keep you posted.

options

options,

That is very good news. Just be prepared for the rollercoaster ride of your life because she is going to take you for one. There will be good days and bad days for her. And you will be along for the ride. As you have noted, it is very difficult to remain upbeat during the bad times because it's hard not to take what she says personally. Just keep in mind that the fog will roll in and out and you may find yourself being blamed for every bad thing that has ever happened to her.

When it gets really bad just take comfort in the fact that she is acting just like every other WW. Don't try to defend yourself or argue. Just try and listen as best you can. If it gets to be too much just take a break - go for a walk or to the gym or something.

Continue arming yourself with knowledge. The more you know the more confident you will be.

Legato,
You are right. The roller coaster ride seems to have already begun. Last night the fog was in. She didn't talk much and seemed very depressed. What a change from 2 nights ago. This morning was very awkward again leaving for work. Almost cold.

I thought I made a love bank deposit with the letter I wrote 2 days ago but I thought the positive effect from it would last longer than it did. She didn't throw the letter away though which I thought was a good indication or sign.
She told me yesterday in an email that she "thought the letter was nice but couldn't talk about it because she was to emotional- as I am nowadays."
mmmmm...She thought the letter was nice....How should I take that?

Is it normal for the fog to move in and out this often (daily after 5 weeks)? Is that natural for WW? I do know today she is working at the same building as OM and keep thinking that has something to do about it.

Thanks for your last post. I am reading a lot nowadays and I am sure that is helping me too.

Yes, she is acting according to the script. Your job is to try and stay emotionally balanced while you ride the rollercoaster with her. If she feels depressed or angry just let her feel that; don't try to fix it. Just be there for her and be willing to listen.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She told me yesterday in an email that she "thought the letter was nice but couldn't talk about it because she was to emotional- as I am nowadays."
mmmmm...She thought the letter was nice....How should I take that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't try very hard to interpret what she says; just take it for what it is, confused and fogbound.

I don't know if this will help you or not but here is something that I did. I'm kind of analytical so when I was going through this I actually plotted a graph each day in my journal that depicted where we were. So her line was on the right and mine was on the left. When she was depressed or nasty I would draw her line veering to the right and I would try to keep my line continuing straight. In other words don't go off chasing her because she's in a bad mood. Then if she became nicer I would draw her line moving back towards my line. Sometimes our lines would get very close and that's when things felt good.

I know this is very weird but it just helped me to ride the rollercoaster and maintain my sanity during the ride.

You might try starting a journal also just to help you get your feelings out about what is going on. Make sure you keep it in a secure place, like at your workplace. You don't want it falling into the wrong hands.

Good idea. I consider myself analytical too so I will try the graph. The journal really sounds like a good idea too. I will start one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she feels depressed or angry just let her feel that; don't try to fix it. Just be there for her and be willing to listen.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I made this mistake last night... I found myself trying fix it/make her feel better. When all she wanted was to be left alone. When she gets depressed like that she doesn't want to talk or anything but to just be left alone. I will try to handle that better in the future.

Thanks again for the insight!! We are going out tonight for V-Day.. Wish me luck. I will keep you posted on how it goes.

options