Mimi, You did learn well. And if I have my chronology right, your Plan B lasted just a couple of weeks. Caren's husband has mimicked your husband in almost every way. Some Plan B's have to last for months (most, actually). But yours didnt, once you decided to do it right. And Caren's looked like days...not weeks or months. Her husband is so addicted to her that he was almost crazy making!! And she let him off the hook.

Caren,

I would jump back on Plan B right now if I were you. Drop a letter off with PBL attached. Say that you meant every word last night about how much you want the marriage and a new kind of marriage. But that you were wrong to say that you would continue contact with him as he made up his mind. That you had made up your mind and that you must protect yourself and your love for him. He is free to chose whomever he wants. But he can no longer have both of you.

And then go back to Plan B and stay there. You see, the odds are he will disappoint you in a week. He will ask for more time, or see her behind your back...or call your bluff! Or what he thinks is a bluff. And when he does one of these next week, where will you be? Worse off than you were before. A huge amount of your love for him will fly out of you, as he continues to chose her EVEN when you put the marriage on the line. This is why you dont threaten, dont make ultimatums. Because if he does indeed call your bluff, then you will be worse off emotionally.

So, go back to Plan B now. You still can. But you ride this out until next week, and I sincerely doubt you will get what you expect...and I am pretty sure the love you have for him now will be severely damaged.

In His arms.

Miker,

On yoru question. That is why you need to have a third party to go between you. One reason is if they meet the terms of the PBL, it has to be verified. Having a third party do that is the best option.

Otherwise, yes...there has to be a surrender meeting. But usually, that is after the WS expresses via third party or via email/voicemail that they are surrendering. Unfortunately, Caren had none of that. She wasnt meeting her WH to discuss surrender, because he never mentioned surrender to the terms of the PBL. She had a meeting to issue demands.

Never, ever have the discussion with the WS until they have shown to third party or expressed in some other way that they are willing to meet the terms of the PBL. In my PBL, I actually told my wife that she if she decided to get rid of OM and wanted to work on the marriage, that she was to leave a message on my voicemail that she was agreeing to my letter. That way, if she called and left a message saying "can we talk?" the answer was always NO because I knew she wasnt agreeing to the PBL yet.

You see, if you dont know ahead of time...then most likely, what you will be doing is feeding a slice of cake to the WS. There are exceptions to this, as we have seen. But usually there is some clue that they have broken.

Caren's husband in no way showed that before he came over. He did show emotion while there. But that aint enough to end the addiction. he has to break. And just as he was getting ready to break, she let him off the hook.

In His arms.

By the way Caren...you aint special! Your backside, it appears, is gonna be just as red as Mimi's was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Mortarman:

You are right. My OFFICIAL PLAN B only lasted about a month, come to think of it. I thought that it was much longer. I tried to start it a month before and kept failing. I would just get back up on my horse. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Then, I had a couple of months left of negotiating with him. Remember we called it a "MODIFIED PLAN B" and everyone kept encouraging me not to take him back too quickly.

So from PLAN B to FULL RECOVERY, 3 months. Now 18 months in RECOVERY.

Thanks again, MORTARMAN!!!!

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong>Never, ever have the discussion with the WS until they have shown to third party or expressed in some other way that they are willing to meet the terms of the PBL. In my PBL, I actually told my wife that she if she decided to get rid of OM and wanted to work on the marriage, that she was to leave a message on my voicemail that she was agreeing to my letter. That way, if she called and left a message saying "can we talk?" the answer was always NO because I knew she wasnt agreeing to the PBL yet.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks MM.

I think this is really important and something that shouldn't be overlooked.

Probably, as you say, your PBL should have the terms upon how you engage in a surrender meeting just so they don't manipulate you into communication before the time is right.

My thoughts...
"I will require the following things be mailed to me :
1. A copy of the NCL sent to OP
2. A copy of proof that it was received via registered mail
3. Proof that you have made a MC appointment"

Miker

Miker:

Actually, it's a good idea to do the NC letter together. It's a good start for RECOVERY. This is recommended in SAA.

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 12:57 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Geez, guys...

So I'm in the middle of writing my Plan B letter and watching all that Caren went thru. I have no idea what my WW will do/is capable of doing. All I know is that she wants a D. Almost feels like a hopeless enterprise, with lots of nasty side effects and pain to the kids and I.

With barely any love left for her - I just feel neutral - it's been hard to express a desire to work on our marriage, it's been hard to express any kind of love. I am stuck. And threadjacking (sorry Caren).

Did just want to express my encouragement that you stay strong and that I care what happens - I want it all to work out for you.

David

Okay, I know you're right. But in Plan A, he would NOT have this talk with me...he would have gone cold on me and shut down on me.

I have been praying like crazy that I haven't made a colossial error here, but can I really go back on my word? How is he going to trust me then?

I know you guys are right, I know you are, I've ******it up, I caved. That was the 1st heart to heart conversation I've probably ever had with him....maybe I just got drunk on the pleasure of actually having an intimate conversation with him.

He is meeting me here tonight, we are going to DD10's parent/teacher conference. He sounded happy to hear from me, but then I guess he would after refusing to talk to him, eh?

I don't know this is in all probability going to blow the **** up in my face.

Tell me how to ******this situation.......I can't.

-Caren

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

Caren - sounds like you set yourself up for one more night of breaking Plan B - but from what I've read, it happens.

You're just going to have to let him know that this can't continue - that the letter you gave him still holds true, and you need the space to save your love for him.

I don't know what else to say - I'm no expert, I'm just getting my plan b ready, I'm probably as scared as you are, and totally useless. But at least you have someone here who is with you 100%

David

You could tell him that you made a mistake, that as long as he's cheating you have to avoid him, that you can't allow that chaos and injury into your life.

Caren, I don't like your new plan. I could certainly be wrong. But I think you expect too much, too fast. We warned you, don't expect to have a one-week plan B.

You have given an addict an ultimatum, and ask anybody who's been there - addicts don't respond to ultimatums. Their brain chemistry is too wonky.

GC

I mean all this is in God's plan, it has to be, or it wouldn't be happening. Please pray that it turns out for me......I don't know what else to do.

Before I read any of these posts I was thinking in the car on the way home thinking OH GOD, I'VE GIVEN HIM A FLIPPIN WEEK TO SCREW AROUND WITH THE OW WITH MY FLIPPIN BLESSING!

I said "Lord, Please, I am giving my marriage to you, I am asking you to please separate my husband from this evil, I feel I've made a mistake last night and I don't know what to do, so I'm giving it to you, Lord you are first in my life and I trust that you will show me the direction I should go, I promise that if you allow my marriage to survive, I will lead my husband to you by example, and I will be a wife in the true biblical sense. This I ask, in your son Jesus Christ's Name, Amen."

At this point that's all I can do. I do not believe God will fail me, although I have failed him more times than I can count.

I have felt through this entire journey that it was wrong to end my marriage, when I said that last night I was actually more trying to make my statement more emphatic.

He walked out of here looking shellshocked.

I am not one to communicate in an intimate manner, so I'm not sure he knew what to do with all the information. Hell, neither do I.

-Caren

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

What you did last night was show him you are not going to Plan B out of spite, anger, or revenge, but you are doing it out of love.

What you can do this week...and yes, stay in contact, albeit limited...no SF (poor girl) because you promised you would keep in touch, is let him know the reason you need to stay away and not talk or be around him is to preserve the love you have, stay out of the chaos, stay out of his life, that to truly show he cared and loved you he would respect your peace and stay away until he had OW out of his system ENTIRELY.

ALSO (and most importantly) talk with him about how to HELP the children in this situation, not harm them. Ask him if he has ideas about how to help them. Make these suggestions...

Don't ask the kids to relay messages.

Don't talk badly about the other spouse.

Don't badger them for information.

Don't introduce them to OP until AFTER the D.

Talk with him about a visitation schedule, and set up an intermediary you BOTH can agree on.

Be reasonable, loving, kind...if he balks or gets mad, remind him you are not doing this out of spite or anger, but out of hurt and protecting yourself and your children until he gets it...

Go back and read Mortarman's posts.

DO EXACTLY WHAT HE SAYS.

He suggests another PBL right away..

That's what I did.

You made a mistake. There's nothing stopping you from starting all over again if you want to.

What's stopping you?

Listen to what we are saying. He is an addict. He is addict. Can you demand for an alcoholic to stop drinking even if the alcoholic wants to and knows that it is killing him?

Have you seen folks smoking who are dying from lung cancer? I have. Same story.

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Okay WH came over @ 7PM so we could go to the parent/teacher conference. We left, and he wanted to take my car, his apparently won't go past 2nd gear. So I said "Ummm I don't have any gas" So we are driving to the school, and he stops by the gas station and puts 10 dollars of gas in my car, and buys me a pack of cigarettes. Then as we're driving the rest of the way to the school, I said "So, have you been thinking about what we talked about last night?" He said "Of course I have" I said "Anything in particular?" He said "Just weighing the pros and cons" I said "The pros and cons of us getting back together, or the pros and cons between me and OW?" He started laughing, he said..."I'm just kidding, about the pros and cons...I have been thinking about it alot though, I actually dreamed about you all night." So now we're at the door of the school, so we drop it.

We go in, sit down with the teacher, and she says that DD10's work is inconsistant, some days she does very well, other days she can't seem to concentrate. (I attribute this to the family situation, but I didn't say anything) She said "She has a VERY large vocabulary." I said "Yeah, that's me, I've always talked to the kids like they're adults, I just use a lot of big words, so they know a lot of them." She said "Well that's good, she knows alot of words that the other kids in the class are clueless about" I said "Yeah, it's my fault" I always have done that with the kids. When my DD19 was in kindergarten, they were testing the kids, having them name pictures, and there was one picture that every kindergarten student answered as "That's a stop sign" my daughter said "That's an octagon" I'm a word freak, I always have been....LMAO I can't help it. I don't speak in pompous language or anything, as I'm sure you can tell from my posts...I could, but it's pointless and makes you sound like an [censored], IMO. So anyway, DD10 is having trouble in math, she needs to memorize her multiplication facts..etc. But she's doing decent overall.

So WH asks the teacher if we should buy her flash cards, she said that's would be a great idea, (I prefer the multiplication table, but I guess she prefers flash cards) It's all memorization at that point...so whatever.

So we are leaving the school, and they'd also given us a picture they'd taken of DD10 with a book she'd done a project on. WH looked at the picture, and said "She's so beautiful, she looks just like you."

So we get into the car, and I said "So, what particularly have you been thinking about regarding our situation?" He said "Well, I would want you to move into my house" I said "It's not in the same school system, I don't think" He said "Well I have the option to buy it, so would you consider moving there?" I said "Yes, I'd consider it" I wasn't really thinking about the logistics of it all, and since we don't have a home that was "ours" anymore, it really doesn't matter a whole lot. I mean he couldn't move here, because we have 2 dogs, and the yard isn't fenced in here, and I'm not allowed to have dogs. An additional benefit would be that it's at least out of the city that OW and I live in...it's close, but it's not in the same city. So apparently he is giving this a lot of thought.

I said "Do you think that you would be tempted to see the OW?" He said "What do you mean?" I said "Well you've been having sex with her, do you think that you'd be tempted to contact her?" He said "If we get back together Caren, I would only want you...not to mention, she is going to hate my guts" So.....I don't know he appears to be leaning towards me.

Who the heck knows............I'm just going to see what happens...as I said, I won't be surprised if it blows up in my face.

All I can ask is for your prayers that he does the right thing.

-Caren

***Edited to say: I'm exhausted, I'm off of here for the evening. The group therapy thing gives me a wicked emotional hangover compounded by having to go to not 1 but 2 parent teacher conferences (DD13 is failing EVERYTHING...I have a tutor lined up for her, she starts Monday...it's the youth minister of the church, so she's doing it for free <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and the stress of my marital situation....I'm too pooped to pop.

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: CarenMc ]</small>

Caren, just want to say you can do this.. You have the strength to do a good Plan B.

Thinking of you.

Okay here is my advice if you won't consider going back to plan B and decide to go through with your1 week modified plan.

If you HAVE to do this modified plan then you better do it right...

1. Action speaks louder than words. Dont ask and Dont talk about relationship...let him bring it up and if he does bring it up...tell him to do the NC letter than you will be willing to talk more. Repeat the NC and talk of nothing else

2. NO SF

3. Be calm and act like you dont care.

4. DONT contact WH...let him contact you if needed and make the conversation SHORT

5. If WH drops by...act busy

6. At the end of 1 week if still no changes...implement the next plan B

7. Maintain kindness and compassion in all contact with WH. Dont show hate or anger. Be confident.

At your stage this act will be hard to do...its better to do a full plan B until you have journey more into this ordeal but since you are determine to do this 1 week than you had better do it right.

I hope you will do well...good luck

But Caren is not responding to our posts.

Caren,

You are reporting info. to us but you are not responding. What do you want us to do with this?

Do you really want our opinions?

I know how it is. You are under his spell and want to believe him. I don't hear him talking about No Contact unless you ask him. What about the No Contact letter? How do you know he does not want you both?

I don't believe that there is a MB System that we make up on our own. Either PLAN A or PLAN B...

Consider reading back over Mortarman's Posts!!!

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 10:01 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

I'm going from my gut here, and I'll admit that I didn't even thoroughly read all the posts from today... so "gimme a break" please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I mean NO disrespect at all... to anyone.

Is there such a thing as too much help?

How is Caren supposed to "process" all this stuff?

Caren is in the thick of things... with all these opinions and orders and admonitions being thrown at her... she's exhausted... she was/is? sick with a nasty cold, to boot!...

Everyone has told her how strong she is... and she is!!... I'm blown away by her strength and determination!!... so...

I just sense that Caren is getting overloaded --- as would ANYone in her shoes.

And Caren, you're getting overloaded because everyone likes you so much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Off to find my helmet...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong> I'm going from my gut here, and I'll admit that I didn't even thoroughly read all the posts from today... so "gimme a break" please <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I mean NO disrespect at all... to anyone.

Is there such a thing as too much help?

How is Caren supposed to "process" all this stuff?

Caren is in the thick of things... with all these opinions and orders and admonitions being thrown at her... she's exhausted... she was/is? sick with a nasty cold, to boot!...

Everyone has told her how strong she is... and she is!!... I'm blown away by her strength and determination!!... so...

I just sense that Caren is getting overloaded --- as would ANYone in her shoes.

And Caren, you're getting overloaded because everyone likes you so much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I know that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Off to find my helmet... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm with you tqt - she needs a little time to heal and process - and do what is right. And Caren, you will.

Now, will someone please help me compose my plan B letter? Give Caren a break and help MEEEEEEEE (David whines selfishly)

David

<small>[ February 17, 2005, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: tanelornpete ]</small>

I would recommend that if Caren has a choice she needs to listen to MORTARMAN.

He is the PLAN B Genius and has counseled many, including me through this process.

Along with Steve H, I credit him for helping me towards RECOVERY.

Of course, it's her life. We are only trying to help her because we have been there with FWS' just like hers.

Caren is thinking that her WH is special although he is following the standard script. So is she.

We are just trying to save her from the hurt. I certainly wished I had listened better to what everyone here was telling me. When I tried to do it my way, I prolonged the A.

OH WELL......