</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously people don't usually go up to these husbands and say, "I hear you left your kid behind at the store," but I am sure they hear about it occasionally.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My Mom left me in the store one time. I was 7. I usually did NOT go with her. But this time I did. Right away I went to the comic book area and sat on the floor and read for about an hour. Then I realized I was there too long ... and I looked everywhere for Mom. She was GONE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> So, I walked home. Took about 45 minutes. When I walked in the front door Mom was giving me the business "WHERE have you been young lady? I've been calling and calling you for dinner for 20 minutes!" I looked up at her and said "You left me in the store." ... and my Mom bust out laughing and grabbed me and hugged me and she laughed and laughed.... so there ... my incompetent Mom unable to multi-task SHE left me at the store... Mom who I adore... she died one year ago next month ... and yet I survived. I did not suffer psychological damage ... it became one of the oft-told family stories....

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Nellie,

Who you daughters marry will have little to do with whether they can trust them to take care of children. However, the lack of trust usually has NO merit, as the H's have not or are not allowed to take care of the children.

My point is simply, that it seems to me that a typical stereotype of a modern woman is one that complains about the man in her life, or complains about the men who are NOT in her life. It has become very fashionable, and Father Knows Best, was right on in many households, but unfortunately in the "new world order" Father Knows Least, seems to be the common assumption.

Your exH may have what he wants in a mate, but I can tell you for sure, he is not a common male. Further, if these women have the time to complain about their H's at outings, it is a good bet they don't mind spending money their "incompentent" H's make.

I would strongly suggest that your daughters move from where ever you are currently living for in the areas I have lived and do now live, your H is a vast minority. As for the other women...what can I say? I would guess their H's get less "competent" the more the W's complain about them, I sure would. But, then again, if I truely got offended, she and her friends would know about it. I am NOT a very sensitive guy, when I decide someone has been running their mouth and it does not make much difference to me if they are male or female.

But, I do think the question that started this thread is poorly phrased and suggests that these women are neither compentent to judge the value of their H's or their contributions to a marriage. The fact that they are married does NOT indicate what kind of W's your friends are, nor what kind of H's their husbands are.

I am reminded of the old joke:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why do men die before women?

Answ: Because they want to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Men find that funny, most women do not. Why do most men find it funny? Perhaps many of them are married to the type of women you know.

Oh, I forgot to mention to you my response to my son about ALL of the worlds ills being the fault of men. I said perhaps your teachers were right, but then one must agree that ALL of the good things in the world are the creation of these same men, otherwise we would still be living in caves with a life expectancy somewhere 20 years and a large fraction of women dying in childbirth.

My point to him is that there two sides to such all encompassing statements. Or to put it like I put it to him </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> There are pancakes so flat that they don't have two sides. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would think your concerns about your daughters should be tempered with that last quote.

God Bless,

JL

Pepperband,

I am glad that you suffered no permanent psychological damage. I am also glad you were not kidnapped or lost on the way home. I can't say that I know anyone, male or female, who would want their 7 year old to walk home alone for 45 minutes in this day and age. I am sure there are mothers who leave their kids behind, but the vast majority of stories I have heard about this sort of thing involve fathers.

JL,

Actually, I am pretty sure from what my kids have said that whether a man appears to have to potential to be a capable father would have a great deal to do with whether they married him.

Many of these women who you believe might not mind spending the money their husbands earn are earning more than he is.

I don't think my H is all that atypical. In what way did you mean he was atypical - because he tolerates being treated like an idiot, or because he almost completely financially dependent on her?

<small>[ February 21, 2005, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Nellie2 ]</small>

I admit this thread frustrates me....yet I read it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Obviously people don't usually go up to these husbands and say, "I hear you left your kid behind at the store," but I am sure they hear about it occasionally. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, here's one for you about not one but TWO incompetent women:

My kids were 3yrs (son) and 3mos (daughter). I took them to Sears to have their picture taken. I took a female friend with me to help me keep them clean and happy while we waited.

We stopped in the toy section on the way to the portrait studio to adjust my daughter's clothes and put her frilly headband on her bald little head.

We were only focused on her a minute or so, but in that time my son disappeared. We figured he was looking at the toys. We walked around and called his name, to no avail. We walked around the general area--still no luck.

Minutes went by. I kept calling his name. No answer. I panicked! I was heading for customer services for help when over the store intercom we hear "Will the parents of xxx xx xxxx please come to Ladies' Lingerie?"

Yup! Little guy made it to the bra department and then found a store helper and gave them his name and we were reunited.

Two women couldn't keep one three-year-old in their sight, but that one three-year-old male was smart enough to get help for himself.

And I agree with whoever posted earlier that it seems that most really tragic child neglect/abuse stories lately involve women, not men.

Don't be so hard on the male gender!

LL

Have it your way Nellie. You have your perspective and you will pass it on to your daughters, and when they get what the expect, they will be very unhappy.

You set the tone as do these other women. If the best they can do is gripe, and they clearly are not good enough women to change these men they married then they have failed, because as all of the women's magazines say, it is the woman's job to change their husbands into someone they Like, love, and will do their bidding.

My only question is "how is that working for them?"

The complaining is not working, the lack of respect is not working, their efforts as a W have failed. I'd say they were "incompentent". That is the ONLY conclusion I can draw. By any measure these women have failed.

Whether they make more money than their H's or not, they are still spending it right? And if more money is the measure of merit, then what does it say about the rest of the women?

Do you see the hole your question is digging for you? Do you see the hole your friends are in? Either they just love to complain which is rather annoying to listen to (although their friends and you enjoy hearing it) or they are in fact incompentent as W's and women. They have bad taste, bad manners, and therefore bad marriages.

So you win, you are right, tell you daughters to stay away from men. None of us follow instructions well, except your exH.

JL

When my son was about 18 months - 2 years old I saw the neighbor outside and stepped right outside the door to speak to her for a second.

All of a sudden I heard "bye bye" and a slam. My toddler had slammed the door and guess what...he was locked inside.

I ran to the neighbors to call my husband to come home with a key. He was not in his office. I could imagine all that our son was getting into in the house. It was an older home and the screens were very hard to get off, but I discovered one window unlocked and with the power of superman I pried off the screen and jumped pretty high up into the window.

I grabbed my son and cried. It scared me to death. He didn't grow up with any permanent scars, LOL, but I have NEVER forgotten it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Then there was the time I was teaching him to get his underwear out of the drawer and dress himself after his bath. To close the drawer, he would throw his ENTIRE body against it. Guess who got slammed in the drawer? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> OUCH! No permanent damage there either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Oh yeah, forgot this one.

I took a job when my son started 4 yr kindergarten. I was working away one day and totally forgot to go pick him up.

When I finally drove up, there he stood with the teacher...all of the other kids were long gone.

The teacher was saying "now WHERE does your Mom work, L?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Well, that settles that! Women are incompetent!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Mel,

No they are "incompentent" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heck, how do you spell that darned word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What I find most interesting is that Nellie would take her guidance about men from a bunch of women who by her description do nothing but complain about men. Which suggests that they don't know much about them, less about "changing" them, and even less about how to achieve a good marriage. Sounds like real roll models to me.

Oh well, I think I have enjoyed about all of this I can.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB] Mel,

No they are "incompentent" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Heck, how do you spell that darned word? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">dang, if I know, I am incompetent!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sounds like real roll models to me.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like harpies to me, JL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Regarding differences between men and women, I'd rather be right than President of Harvard.

Lawrence Summers

This is ridiculous. I never said I was taking guidance from anyone, including co-workers. I am sure these co-workers and their husbands would be rather surprised to learn that they were in "bad marriages."

When I posted the question I was just wondering if their experiences were similar to those of others. As I said more than once, and was ignored more than once by most posters, I was hoping that their experiences were not universal. Posters could have simply said, no, their experiences were different - but I guess it is more fun to get upset.

Nellie,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I posted the question I was just wondering if their experiences were similar to those of others. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, but I don't believe you. I believe there are other motivations ... as demonstrated by your earlier posts on this thread.

I work a minimum of 6 days a week on the graveyard shift. 11PM until 7AM. I chose this shift so our son would never need a sitter or daycare, feeling that the best way to raise him correctly was to do it ourselves. This means I am lucky to get 4 hours of sleep a day, and am making much less than I was before I took this position. I would do it again in a heartbeat. Our son is worth it.

I am our son's primary caregiver(timewise) at least 4 days a week and sometimes more, depending on FU's work shifts. In the time he has been alone with me, he has never gotten so much as a stubbed toe. He has, however, gotten a great deal of love, care, interaction, and maybe even a little early education in how to be a good man as opposed to just a member of the male gender. He will continue to get these things from me regardless of cost for as long as I draw breath. I am very, very lucky to have him to share this with, and I thank God every day for this priviledge.

In addition to being a father and breadwinner, I see that our cars are taken care of, our house and all of its fixtures are kept in good repair, that I am personally physically and mentally attractive to FU, and continue my informal self-education for all of our benefits.

Absolutely the ONLY things I have felt incompetant in since the birth of our son is my ability to choose a decent mate and my judgement of female integrity. And frankly, I am quickly regaining my faith in the first thing with FU's help. The second is a little harder to regain, having known far too many weak, indecent, dishonest, and dishonorable women in my life...but for every "bad" woman I have known personally, I have heard of thousands of "good" women. So, even with the pounding that my confidence took in my judgement, I am already seeing improvement there as well.

Opposites attract is the only thing I can see to say about your friends' situations. Which leads be to believe that their husbands are kind, respectful, decent people. So, perhaps their children can learn how to be successful and "competant" from your friends, and can learn to be worthwhile human beings from their fathers. Both good lessons, if you ask me.

-OAK

OAK,

That was a great post, and a point well made! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2 on EN board:
Money. Convenient sex, companionship, and having a live-in maid/cook may be part of it, but mostly it is money. Most women now work for most of their adult lives, and from what I see in real life and on this board, it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So N2, based on that comment on why men marry can we expect another simple thread?

Nellie2 will your next thread "simply" ask the question "Do all men have trouble holding onto jobs and mainly marry women for the finacial support they (women) provide?

I'm sure that most of the male posters here would be surprised they contributed to "your experience" that
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from what I see in real life and on this board , it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.

<small>[ February 23, 2005, 06:07 AM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2:
<strong> Posters could have simply said, no, their experiences were different - but I guess it is more fun to get upset. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that it is perfectly reasonable for a good man, or the spouse of one, to get a little upset at being called incompetent...

OAK is the most responsible, able person I have ever met, and not just among the male gender... don't think for one second that just because I'm female that I'm automatically the better parent in our situation... I have learned more from him than I ever, EVER did from my mother.... just one more reason in a million for me to love him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

-Falling Up

In my neck of the woods, if you are fortunate enough to have a decent job you hang onto it for dear life. Male and female alike.

We mostly fear corporate layoffs.

Nope I see no gender favors in job hopping or unemployment. If laziness is the cause, it is a character issue and not one of gender.

That theory just does not hold any water from what I can tell in my world.

I happen to work with many competent men and just as many competent females. And they mostly seem happy in their marriages, and strangely enough they are mostly in longterm marriages.

Now go down and hang around the bars for awhile and you will see a whole new aspect of incompentency, both in male and females.

As JL said, maybe it is a matter of where you live or in your immediate world?

And on this board the male posters seem more than competent to me. Same with the female posters.

OK, this really is my last post to this thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am beginning to think Nellie2 is doing the same thing my STBX did. Just saying and doing the most outrageous things and then saying, "what?"

Perhaps we need more Ochid on here to reverse babble to Nellie2. But what is really the point?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Posted by Nellie2 on this thread:
I would also hate to think that there just aren't very many competent men, but that seems to be the case from what I have seen and heard . I wonder how many mothers are absolutely sure that there husband can do as good a job of keeping their children safe, much less keeping their lives organized and getting them where they have to go with what they need to take with them, as they do. For that matter, how many men believe they can? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie2 on EN board "Why Men Marry":
Money. Convenient sex, companionship, and having a live-in maid/cook may be part of it, but mostly it is money . Most women now work for most of their adult lives, and from what I see in real life and on this board, it it generally men who are long-term unemployed, or who jump from job to job. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Based on what Nellie has posted on the EN board (Why men marry), and her own thread here on GQ it appears that the prevalent behavior of men that she has experienced and observed is that:

1. Men are incompetent in areas of childcare and household organizational matters.

2. Men are shiftless and have difficulty maintaining gainful employment and are increasingly using marriage as a tool to raise their standard of living.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie2 says:
Posters could have simply said, no, their experiences were different - but I guess it is more fun to get upset. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nellie2 did not “just” ask a question. She is not looking for proof, or truth. "Warning, DJ ahead" Nellie2 is looking for validation of her own sexist beliefs. She is looking for the same validation that she gets from her “friends.”

She was given replies and anecdotal evidence to the contrary to what she said, however her chosen response in almost every case was, to paraphrase her, “thanks for that story, BUT , in my experience and the experience of women I know most men are incompetent.”

Hopefully most posters here will realize that Nellie2 is not looking to gather information to reach a conclusion. She has already made a conclusion and gathers evidence to support it. All evidence to the contrary is a just a rare exception.

I have the perfect solution 2 the problem stated here:

"Hire the incompetent!"

Nellie: Don't believe everything you're told.

-ol' 2long