I would be very hesistant to add MORE delusions and illusions to already addled brains.

Going out looking smashing and projecting strength and vitality? You bet.

Pretense of OP? No way. For several reasons.

First of all..I thought that we were somewhat of the opinion that this sort of behavior was..what was that word..oh, wrong. That was it. Wrong. So..I wouldn't be too quick to make a hypocrite of myself for short term gain. That gain being making the WS temporarily concerned that they are expendable.

It might work briefly. It's a lie though, and the truth will out. Either you are neck deep in the same muck that they are..in which case you have no call to complain, they were right all along..or you are sad and pitifull trying to pretend you are living the life they rejected you for.

Yay. Good plan.

Then let's not forget the whole..I'm not quite right in the head..probably drinking quite a bit to boot..and while I am having my own affair..it does not mean that I may not become dangerously jealous.

On the whole..I think it's risky at best..lacks integrity in the middle..outright dangerous at worst.

No thanks. I stoop to that level for no man.

Noodle

Noodles,

You may be right that I could be coming on too strong. It may be better to be suspicious but not obvious.

This approach has had success for others.

BH, one good thing I see is your spirits are up and you are not sobbing at your computer tonight.

Maybe this little fantasy plan, took you away for awhile and now you are coming back to reality.

I think you just hope so much that your wife will make a U-Turn back to you....and there is a possibility, if she thinks she might lose you to someone else, she might realize what a fool she has been and become the wife you desire her to be.

And if she doesn't care if you find someone else, then what?...Noodles is right, it is a risky game, be careful not to take it too far...just have a LITTLE mystery....maybe not such a grand scheme as to pretend you went to Vegas...YOU ARE SO CUTE, I have to smile at your BIG Plan.

You know something, BH, sometimes women just NEED attention from other men...no matter how much affection and caring their H's give them...Maybe your wife is like that.

I have a little problem with that myself and for awhile there, I was emailing an old classmate and it was developing into an EA...It really felt good to have someone else caring for me and listening to my every word...I actually felt this SECRET wouldn't hurt my H as long as he never found out...I felt like a teenager again, loved the romance part of it, so I do understand how we can get off track in our lives, even when we sincerely love our mates.

Hang in there friend, good times are a comin!

Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I remember Carol's story right after I joined MB. She did a 180 from Divorce Busters. In a nut shell it says, if what you are doing isn't working, do the opposite, something entireley different.

After going through the torment of multiple ddays I decided to get on with my life - to live and enjoy life while staying true to my M vows. I started sailing on a race crew, going out Friday nights to a group ( not singles, just anyone who wanted to join in, kids too) at a church while my YS was at the movies, I started doing things for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

WS at the time lived 1200 miles away, but he began to notice. At the time, I didn't realize that he was paying attention to what I did. He began to call me on Friday nights & I would be out & he asked me & told him at the beach (town). I figured he just called me so he could get me out of the way before the weekend with OW.

WH would call home & YS would tell him I was sailing. WH also started to call me on Wednesday nights & a lot of time the whole crew would go out to dinner & WH noticed.

I started working out & over time I got in better shape. Guys started to pay attention to me, some much younger than me.

In Dec 03, WS asked to come home after a series of horrific circumstances but didn't know if I would have him - because he thought I was seeing someone else. He thought when I started sailing that I did so becuase of a man. I wasn't then and haven't to this day. He also told me that he would call on Fridays & I would be out. He told me a lot about what I did without me realizing he paid attention. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WH did come home for a period of time and eventually left again. I continued with my life determined not to let his unhappyness affect me.

In the fall I got flowers from a friend's son who I helped find a house to buy. I just left the flowers out & WH never asked.

Things looked pretty bad for our M for the latter part of 2004. WH got very drunk at a Christmas party. I didn't understand why until later.


This Jan, WH came home & said he wanted a DV. He said that neither of us is happy. He thought I was seeing someone else ( I haven't ever). He said I don't wear my wedding rings ( HE NEVER DID WEAR HIS - MINE REAL RING WAS CUT OFF IN 1986 WHEN MY FINGER SWELLED DURING PREGNANCY. I BOUGHT NEW RINGS TO FEEL BETTER ABOUT MYSELF CUZ HE WAS FLIRTING WITH A SINGLE MOM, EMPLOYEE) He said that at the Christmas party, my Broker asked WH if he had a bushier mustache when they met in the Spring. This conversation went on & our office manager joked & said " oh that was the other guy !!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

WH said he wanted to be a good Dad to our kids, and that he was a good Dad. (HE ALSO SAID THAT WHAT WENT ON BETWEEN THE 2 OF US THE LAST 5-1/5 YEARS DIDN'T AFFECT THE KIDS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I was able to share with him that I would be OK if he wanted to get a DV but it's not what I want. I had not been seeing anyone else, just decided to be happy & live a good life. I told him I loved him and I always will.

I took him to my attorney as he had some questions. Turned out WH was thinking about bankruptcy but found out that I had been to an attorney & that kind of shook him up.

Funny thing, after that he has started doing things I had wanted him to do - be responsible, be a Dad ( he ignored his kids for years ) be consistent, do what he says. And, he has not mentioned one thing about dv.

JULIE,

YOUR LINK TO AN INVERVIEW WITH GOD IS INCREDIBLE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

D.

I have to vote with noodle. So what if WS comes back, then gets restless again -- will you find a new fake OP, and set up all these stagey machinations once again? Every time there is a difficulty in your marriage?

It's all thinking about the WP too much.

None of this is getting on with your own life. Why not just get a big life -- not try to find a way to manipulate your WP into thinking you have a big life? These tricks might work, but I don't see how you can do a radical honesty policy if you are game-playing.

I have another theory. (don't I always?) A BS is hit with so many chemicals/hormones in response to d-day that they usually respond very sexually to their WS (at least many BWs seem to). Trouble is that the sexual response is not necessarily person specific. I have had a huge sexual response to my FWH ..... so is it just coicidence that a lot of men have come on to me in the last two years since d-day? I'm 52 - surely I'm not giving off pherenomes at my age? I could have cheated many times this last two years.

Yes I've been very sexual - an involuntary response to a most unexpected threat to my happiness. I'm just now begining to see how OTT I've been - but boy it's like conjuring up the demons - coz if you are going to be hot for one man, how do you draw the line at just one?

I've had a lot of attention from men and it's very flattering at my age. The latest guy is an Italian 79 yo and I find him absolutely charming. He swims every day as do I and he's tanned and fit and if he'd told me he was 60 I would have believed him. I actually find this guy quite sensual. Get a grip I tell myself. It's been a long time since a man has told me he's old enough to be my father!!!! But boy could he teach younger men a lot about how to talk to a woman. My H's A has woken me up from being a sleeply little housewife to feeling very attractive and powerful. I am not imagining it and yet I had years of being younger and prettier but I shut off to this kind of attention before - now I welcome it and enjoy it - and it's not just old guys as some of you will remember my encounter with the yummy flight attendant this time last years.

I think these are dangerous games we play. Not long before my H's bombshell, I remember thinking how great our relationship was because we loved each other and we didn't have to play games - but like another poster said, I think my H forgot how creative I can be. I've enjoyed showing him I can fight back and win.

My H is constantly frightened of what he thinks he's given me permission to do. He see's men interacting with me all the time. And to be honest, I encourage this in front of him to let him see that if he doesn't watch himself he could be history. I have turned the tables very nicely and apart from being bubbly and friendly to men I've done nothing wrong. And nor will I. I tried to, but I am not made that way.

So, I guess my point is that if you are confident and take care of yourself and you add a measure of unpredictability to your behavior - your WS will take notice of you. I actually feel like an OW these days - I get so many expensive gifts from my FWH, and far more respect and consideration than I ever got pre A. So, reinvent yourself and enjoy the ride.

AN

It is so good how these messages from people give a diversivied look at marriage and life.

'Will Get Through This' & Anyname's post versus Noodles & A.M.Martin's posts give different opinions on the same subject and the reader can decide for themselves which road they themselves want to take.

I am like what the two ladies wrote..I am very sexual lady in my 50's. I am 5' tall and have a cute curvy body. (150lbs, no skinny minnie here!~lol~)

Yep, if most any of us BS wanted, there is always someone that would be more than willing to romp in the hay with us. (I live in the country and we have a barn with hay!) But our hearts know enough to say that is not what we want, the excitement would turn to remorse and guilt and just not worth it for the 'thrill' of the moment.

I still feel Plan A is a bit of a manipulation Plan (albiet a good manipulation) because instead of doing what our heart tells us to do (constantly send out love busters) we become very sweet and kind.....I have a post about how to do a proper Plan A...I am going to find it and start a thread, it is very good.

And keep in mind, everyone reading this, this thread was meant to represent a hypothetical OP to make the wandering spouse open his eyes to the fact that he or she may lose their mate to another. (That is why I used the word 'THINK' in the subject line.)

It was not meant, even in the slightest way, to suggest the BS, hook up with an OP.

Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 06:36 AM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

noodley said...

I would be very hesistant to add MORE delusions and illusions to already addled brains.

I think that these tatics done small, slowly and as always with NO verified evidence of anyone else....NO real use of anyone....is not the addition of delusions and or illusions...but perhaps a window into a reality...

many many many WS can not even see their own deception as 'a betrayal...because it's so wrapped up in justifiction and just friends layers....
the thought or the reality of their spouse ever ever being interesting to someone else..can be mind boggling...as if they never even saw that it is a possibility.....

the illusion that this is true that what they wish for..their spouse to move on and 'find' someone new....is often more akin to be careeful for what you wish for....

it is often a huge smack of reality that hits home....it is a potential consequance of their own actions...

so perhaps the WS needs to pine a few nights worrying and wondering what it is their BS is up to....
it is an exact reflection and window in to what a BS feels often....

should the BS protect them from that reality...even if the reality is an illusion...

though I can not stress enough that it should never ever involve another real person...and it should never be blatant as is obvious dating or romantic encounters...

that's why I say it must done in a way that is non-convictable....

willgetthroughthis did it with a sailing club...brilliant...

my friend ms. martin said....

So what if WS comes back, then gets restless again -- will you find a new fake OP, and set up all these stagey machinations once again? Every time there is a difficulty in your marriage?

IF a ws comes back and gets restless it is hoped that the BS has prepared for this with strict boundaries and a plan as to what to do if the WS returns to fogdom...and surely this tatic would not be the first one used...as the BS must and should have much more tangible boundaries that have direct consequances....

not try to find a way to manipulate your WP into thinking you have a big life?

again I don't see as manipulation but as a window in to the reality of their creaton...

it's a fine line to walk
it takes small doses...at a time..no huge overt things...tiny tiny actions...on the peripheral sight of the WS...

I think done right it is a good...
ARK

Everyone, this thread has helped me. I have tried everything to get my WS back from her EA. She has moved out and right now she wants it to stay that way and divorce.

So, I start doing things for ME. By doing things for me, she will see what she has lost. She may care, she may not. The important part is that I will be taking care of me.

Yes, I can give her the slight illusion that there may be someone else but there will not be.

Keith

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04.:
<strong> TMCM- Just what the heck is an exit affair. I know the definition, but it seems pretty phony. An exit A is used by the WS to end the M. It is a way out. If this is true, then why is it secret, why does the WS even have one. If they're done, they're done. Get out of the M and do whatever you want.

It just seems that the "exit" part becomes the excuse once the A is discovered etc. Up 'til then it is just garden variety selfishness, just like any other A. The WS becomes the X because they see that as the easiest way out once caught even thought hey may not really want to leave and give up their current life.

I also think that the WS can become convinced by outside influences that their A must have been an exit A.

Your opinion? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bear,

Noone answered you question so I thought I would take a stab.

An exit affair can be the WS's last cry for attention before they bolt. It can be the last and final try to show their spouse just how unhappy they are in the relationship. It can also be the cowards way to end a marriage. The WS may think the BS will surely file for divorce once it is know that they are having an affair. The WS wants the marriage to end, but they don't want to be the bad guy, the one who files for divorce. It is kind of like taunting their partner into doing what they can't bring themselves to do on their own.

Well, I don't know if that helped, but there it is from one who behaved in the coward's fashion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Blessed TIME

Miss Priss
I don't quite understand. Are you saying while trying to make your H a little jealous, you ended up having an EA with an OM? Is everything ok now?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I NEVER set out to make my H jelous.

Throughout our ordeal my H kept telling me to find someone else. He told me that SO often that I did just what he told me to do. He had me convinced that it was over....so I started moving on.

I DIDN'T find someone else to have a relationship with though. I met a friend of a friend.

I ended up going on a little trip with this friend of a friend. PURELY friendly though. It was a way for me to get away from everything for a couple of days.

On that trip my H....who was practically living with the OW at this point....called me 17 times in one day.....and 12 times the next day. According to my sister he was a complete wreck. He couldn't work that day.....and he was pacing the floors.

Now....all that reaction from someone who no longer loves me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pi$$ed the OW off BIG TIME.

Now....understanding my friendship with this person was hard for ALOT of people to get.

There were no "romantic feelings" on either part....and nothing happened. I simply tagged along on an already planned trip of his. He did his thing....I did mine.

Now as to the reason that it had a negative affect on me.

Later...I went to a party this man was throwing for his business. I wasn't "with" him.....I was simply invited as were ALOT of other people...men and women.

I was almost raped at this party. I will not go any further into that story though. Sickens me to even think about it. All I will say is.....I put myself in that situation.

Now.....all the while....a supposed best friend of my H's was constantly calling me.....asking me to go out with him. He had a GF and had 2 children with her. He wouldn't leave me alone no matter how much I asked him to....so I had to ask my then WH to have a talk with him. He finally quit calling me.

I had exhausted all my efforts to save my marriage. I had reached a point where I had no energy left to fight for it. I had done everything I could. IMHO

The reason why I don't really agree with the whole making the WS think your moving on or are interested in someone else is because I think that alot of the times the BS only focuses on the things that will get the WS back......but sometimes the BS forgets what the other affects can be. As in having the complete opposite affect your going for.

I think that in order to do this......one has to be ready for the negative affect.....possibly divorce. Most of the time the BS ISN'T ready for that affect.....sometimes they never are.

I think also that you will have to remember that I don't agree with ALL of the MB Concepts.....I took what worked for me and used it.

You also have to remember that when I did this....I was the one filing for divorce.....not my WS. I was done.

I read one BS's story on here with a WH that was FIRMLY entrenched in his A and D. Plan B was dragging on and on and with the advice of a coach she started to go on with her life...or at least make it appear to.

She was VERY appropriate, but made it seem she was starting a social life, without him.

What would she do?

When he would come over to pick up kids she would be dressed to go out, be anxious for him to leave, sometimes have someone call (brother, girlfirend, etc.), be flirtatious over the phone. She would ask for change in visitation plans because she had made plans. Let him see she had a bag in the trunk, was going out of town. Always, always, always, dressed to the nines. When actualitly she was going home to a good book, or going to neighboring city for antiquing, or visiting a friend. she would take herself to movies (so the cell had to be off).

When he would come back to drop off kids, she would be unpacking (all her fancy lingerie or fine jewelry) and getting ready to take a shower.

Make it appear as though you are moving on with your life.

A wise counselor once told me that of all the D men she worked with, almost all of them came to regret the D one day. What I think is so important about Plan B is it helps the WS face what life would be like without their S...helps them face that regret a little sooner...

On another soapbox, I hear folks on here criticizing counselors because they seem to be helping a couple D instead of reconcile...my thought on this is that if a couple is deadset for a D, it is ia counselors responsibility to help them face that...and possibly see ALL the reality of that (and perhaps see they don't want it). Don't begrudge a counselor that asks a couple to jump in the pool of D, it may be the shock they need to decide the water's too cold...but this is a topic for another thread...

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: StillHereMakingIt ]</small>

Thanks to all that have posted and kept this thread going...All your messages have been very interesting and thought provoking.

I wonder how Carol is doing....the lady referred to in the first post, to click on, for her unique story.

Love, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

That was me bashing the counselor. She now has my STBXW (maybe it's her recommendation, i don't know where else it came from) reading articles on codependency. What the heck is that all about? I hardly feel like she was ever codependant on me.

Really, the fog my WW spews, she uses what the MC says, turns it around and justifies her behavior. "The A is just a symptom of our bad M. WE're not supposed to compare bad acts, it's no different than you not helping with the laundry." and "According to (MC) our M was over long b4 I had my A."

How can I not see the MC in a bad light?

BT, I was drawn to your thread because I'd just suggested the same thing about BHs when WWs stay in the marriage but don't appear to want/enjoy sex with their BH's after their A's. Noodles thread about sexual imagery and the dark side (very interesting thread) evolved at one point into a discussion about too many WWs being couch potatoes in the bedroom in recovery. Have you noticed how many BHs comment that the WW doesn't feel like sex with them and the BH is left wondering why she felt like it so much with OM who was neither tall dark and handsome, or a kind and loving and decent.

There were some interesting theories as to why this happens more with wayward women than with wayward men - but one of my comments was that I thought a BH would do better to feign an A than sitting there day in day out torturing himself with thoughts of how much his wife enjoyed sex with om and how much he'd like it if she would turn on some of that on for him. Doesn't he deserve something for loving her and supporting her all this time? Apparently not! The WW doesn't care what the BH deserves - but she might care when she realises her stable steady reliable always there BH, has found another woman who sees her BH as a desirable catch and a man she'd be happy to get down and dirty with!

I think there is some truth in us wanting what we think we can't have. Miss Priss's comment about the phone call was a classic.
AN

Well this was advice to BHINWI but I thought I would give it a try. My WH finally arrived -- instead of 7-8pm last night about 5:30 this am. Didn't bother me one bit -- time does change ones attitude-- Well before I went to bed I took my beer -- a new kind that I bought for myself and an older one (yes I am a slob) and put them on opposite sides of our dining/kitchen table. Well he noticed -- wanted to know who I was having a beer with. I just said I didn't know what he was talking about. He didn't stop asking me about it.

Last month I went to a friend surprise birthday party -- on a night my wh was working. My wh came home that night (he never does he stays at our other house) and with a mega phone calls out in my back yard "your husband is home He would like to see you" Two people who were out on the deck came in telling me that my wh was yelling to me with a mega phone. I played it off - but I was smiling inside.

tdr

tdr...that is soooo good...the two beers.
Loved it...You are such a witty lady!

Anyname....what you said here:
"The WW doesn't care what the BH deserves - but she might care when she realises her stable steady reliable always there BH, has found another woman who sees her BH as a desirable catch and a man she'd be happy to get down and dirty with!"

I can tell you from my own experience that the bedroom scene here was occassional and boring.

HOWEVER the very second I found out about the other woman, my libido did a 180 and I felt like a 'h*****'(not 'proper' to use that word here~lol~) teenage girl...But it is VERY VERY true.

I wanted to have sex with my husband in every postition, every single way including BJ's! In the car, wherever...all the time, whereas before, every other Sunday, was fine with me!
I can hardly believe the change in myself.

That is why I am stressing if the BS even gives off the illusion that they possibly have or just might find someone else, it just might open the eyes and hearts of the WS.

Kinda like in the movie: "It's a Wonderful Life."
They just might see how their life would be without you in it.

Just some thoughts.
With love and caring, Julie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

P.S. Bear04, there was a reply to you earlier in this thread...If you want you can tell us your story, where you and your wife are in recovery and even if that is really what you want.
I can tell you have been hurt very deeply and I am sending you a HUG.

*************************************************
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<small>[ February 25, 2005, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Blessed TIME ]</small>

Blessed Time

I so agree about the libido increasing. I though it was my age (35 at my peak thing). But my D day night I gave my wh a bj and swallowed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> something I refused to do in the 11 years we were together and have continued since then. Just the sound of his voice on the phone sends me into frustration. (I'm on my 2nd glass of wine never in a million years would I have said that w/o it.)

tdr

Your post made me giggle. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />
You will probably be deleting it tomorrow!~lol~

But really, BS need to hear this.

If their WS feels he or she may be losing them to someone else, he or she might get that same wake up call that we got.

At least there is HOPE that they will!

Love, Julie Jo <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />