</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Fishracer+:
<strong> Noodle:

(Not sure what KWIM is!)

Know What I Mean..I just figured it out last week after much confusion..so I must admit I'm quite pleased to stump someone else <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says [and I believe him] that he really and truly did not think that anything was going to happen until it did..and by that I mean..until it was very "in your face" happening with no subtlety. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There still seems to be a bit of: "I couldn't help myself", "The devil made me do it" and "It happened before I could stop it..." to these statements. Am I on-track?

In Hs case, there was no "the devil made me do it" aspect..perhaps I expressed it badly..it was more like.."I made the conscious choice..but I'm SHOCKED that I chose as I did..because I really did not until that moment intend to have sex outside of my marriage."

It was naive and self deluding for H to think he could immerse himself in the slum lifestyle for the excitement element..without being tainted by the low living element. In for a penny, in for a pound.

Would you agree with the general theory that WH as with all WS's has/had a "character-flaw" that attributed to A? If so, what are you & he doing about that?

Meh..yes and no. I think that every person living has character flaws that COULD under the right circumstances make them agreeable or at least vulnerable to an A. Make them ripe. I really tend to focus more on the boundary issues. Boundaries are specific and protective measures that do not change..regardless of where your head and heart are at any given time..when your boundaries drop or change position..major change is about to occur in your life. If you find yourself straining against them..it'd be a good time to do some introspective examination.

I also do not really believe that character flaws can be "cured"..I think that rather they are "managed"..if that makes sense. So, what I would be looking for change wise..is actively seeking greater self awareness..actively seeking to lay down the boundaries FOR HIMSELF and of his own choosing using knowledge gleaned by his own effort to become better educated about As in general, human nature, and himself in particular.

Noodle



L:

Thanks for sharing so much! Just a few questions for you:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, by the time I realized where I was, I was soo embaressed and felt soo guilty that I decided that I could not redeem myself, so I just let it all go </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IOW: Was this kind of like a "well, I'm late anyway, so I might as well stay out all night because there is really no difference in 1-hour late or 12 hours late...?" Isn't that a form of self-denial?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...See I am of the belief that if you know it's wrong, FIXIT! Not so easy in the A... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So you're the fixer in the family eh? BTW; I agree with u.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You wouldn't give up L. You just wouldn't. It would make me happy and angry at the same time. It tore me up that I could see what it took to fix it but I just didn't have it in me. It was easier for me to make you angry than to face reality. So I proded you into confrontations, I tried to pick fights with you, I deliberately would say things to hurt you because if you hurt more than I did, it somehow temporarily made me feel less guilty. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see this a lot here on MB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I found some things I liked to do (he claimed he and OW had a lot in common),... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Mr. Selfish was in command at this time!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I then said: 'you do realize that we know we no longer need you.' </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Almost choked when I saw this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I said the same thing - but it didn't work for me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Your DS sounds much like DD. Loves Mom - but not her actions. DD is using "fog-babble, alien intrusion" lingo in counseling sessions when talking about WXW. Making the best of a tough sitch. She's a trooper - no doubt about it!!!

Thanks.

FR <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Fishracer, thanks for starting this thread. I have been struggling with this issue for months now. Steve Harley told me something about myself months ago that unfortunately is too true. He said that some people can see the picture of a puzzle even though some of the pieces are missing, He said I'm one of those people that needs all the missing pieces in place otherwise the picture is still fuzzy. This is one of those missing pieces for me. What bothers me as much as anything is what I call the "choice point." To me this is the point before the A is so full blown the WS is totally addicted. The point when the future WS has that choice of doing what's right or doing what's wrong. In our case I see it as the point OW asked H to go to a park with her after work so she could give him a letter that she wrote him. They say an EA begins when feelings are acknowledged. THAT was at that point. He allowed that to happen, and that was the day he began to lie to me. The lie being a lie of omission.

Several weeks ago H and I watched an episoda of the show "Joan of Arcadia." One of the characters, a MM with 3 teenage kids, has a female boss who was clearly pursuing him. I haven't seen all the episodes but get the feeling he was getting sucked into the pleasure of having this woman to talk to and flirt with. In his case she apparently did some obviously immoral things on the job that woke him up to her character before an A occurred. Meanwhile, his W has the following conversation with a friend. She tells the friend she wonders if her H is having an A, but then disqualifies those fears. She says she's sure the female boss is really a good person and nothing is happening. The friend says something like, "Do you think evil always looks ugly? Evil can disguise itself as something pretty. It begins with little compromises that you begin to make with yourself." Two days later H and I were talking and I asked him what he thought about what the friend in the show said. Coincidentally we had this conversation and then went to church. The serman was EXACTLY what we had been talking. It's amazing how many time since d-day that has happened. H told me that he totally understood what the friend said. When he was in the A he thought it was something good. He told me shortly after d-day OW brought out the best in him. He felt good when he was with her. She actually gave him several religious cards talking about how God brought them together. They would talk about that. The idea that God isn't about lying, betrayal, and crushing others didn't enter his mind, or he quickly pushed those thoughts away. The A did not feel evil, and shouldn't evil feel horrible? Is a person tempted by something that feels horrible?

The other thing was already stated, which has to do with slowly doing things which compromise yourself. Steve told me it's like a person saying he's fine having a few drinks, but needs to stop at 4. Yet after 3 drinks he is already drunk, so continues drinking. Wipes out a family while driving drunk. For H he 1st allowed OW to cross bounderies. Her calling him at home to chat. He and I thought it was weird, but he didn't know how to tell her to stop. Then there was a night I had something to go to and when I got home I found out he met her at a bar. When I told him I was uncomfortable with that, he apologized and said her friend was there. That was before the EA began. Then he, her, and his business partner began going out for happy hour. I was too busy with school, kids, and the very sick father to join them. I'm sure the business partner might not always have come, or maybe would leave before the 2 of them. Then there were evening meetings they would drive to together. Then OW began doing some extremely seductive things at work. H was very uncomfortable at this point, I think because it was turning him on, but he didn't know what to do. He had no idea what his weaknesses were, what bounderies should be in place, or how he should have put OW in her place.

Finally there is the moral fabric around us. At least one book I've read said that if a person has close people in his life, family or friends that have had As, it adds to the vulnerability. In our case H's younger S and B both had As and left their Ss. Neither one would give up the OP. Within about 5 months of d-day the OPs were accepted with open arms. Getting together with the family, suffering no stigma, no adverse consequences. H admitted to me that he thought OW would be accepted at some point. At the very least no one would give him a hard time for his A.

His A is textbook material. Yet, writing all of that, my understanding as yet has not moved from being intellectual to my heart. My heart still hurts like he** over that 1st choice that led to all the others. CV

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chackler: No 2x4's from me on this post! I've also learned that adultery is an equal opportunity offense and often includes Christians. As a Christian; how much do you believe Satan is involved in A's? Another question: Did you read the Bible, continue going to church, etc. before and during the A? If so; what was that like?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, you are making me think!

I’ll take this question by question.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a Christian; how much do you believe Satan is involved in A's?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At first I never really thought of it as a spiritual battle. In fact, it really didn’t dawn on me until after the A was over that I thought Satan was involved. I read a book a couple months past d-day on spiritual battles “Seeing the Unseen” and it totally made sense to me because the enemy uses our emotions against us. I mean I still crossed the line but I can definitely see the influence, but it wasn’t until the damage was done that it became noticeable. It’s kind of scary because I never in my life thought I would be a target of Satan because I am so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I guess even us nobody’s are targets too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you read the Bible, continue going to church, etc. before and during the A? If so; what was that like?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a quick slipping away. My husband was going through a very intense study of the bible and would pour hours in the evening and weekends over scripture (good stuff too! Let me know if you want to hear about it and I’ll give you my e-mail addy). Anywho, at the time I began to really resent him for choosing his studies over me. I would ask him to slow it down a bit but that didn’t happen, so I really began to resent God and everything about Him. I felt that my hubby chose Him over me, which is how it should be anyway. Then things started to pick up with OM and I was really filled with anger over my situation. I didn’t want to go to church, read the bible, or do any studies with my husband because it was like I was fighting God for him, yet at the same time, I had this OM who would (in my fantasy mind) would put me above everything. I thought it was a horribly unfair situation in my mind and heart, but in all actuality it was my sin consuming me.

Thanks!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read a book a couple months past d-day on spiritual battles “Seeing the Unseen” and it totally made sense to me because the enemy uses our emotions against us. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did the book's message have any influence on ending the A? (BTW, I'm surprised that you read this book during the A. That is very "un-foggy"!!!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It’s kind of scary because I never in my life thought I would be a target of Satan because I am so insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I guess even us nobody’s are targets too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My preacher and good friend would say to you; "You were a chosen target due to your Christianity. Why would Satan worry about non-Christians - he already has them".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was a quick slipping away. My husband was going through a very intense study of the bible and would pour hours in the evening and weekends over scripture (good stuff too! Let me know if you want to hear about it and I’ll give you my e-mail addy). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Love to read them. Thanks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn’t want to go to church, read the bible, or do any studies with my husband because it was like I was fighting God for him, yet at the same time, I had this OM who would (in my fantasy mind) would put me above everything. I thought it was a horribly unfair situation in my mind and heart, but in all actuality it was my sin consuming me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. Amazing how clearly one can see - when the fog has lifted. Good for you and H. I have some good reading that I will send to you about OM. It's all very sciptural (hope that's a word) and you will probably enjoy reading it. BTW - how is H holding up? How are you 2 doing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

FR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Fishracer+:
<strong>I'm interested in your story. Given another chance to control your own actions in the same sitch; what would you do differently? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's a very good question. I don't think I knew how to save my M back then. What that means as far as what I would have done differently, I don't know.

I do know that, even without finding MB, if I had to do over again I would not have the A.

My W was done with the M. She wasn't even really hurt by it (her words). She is using it as a good excuse to end the M. It seems I hurt myself the most.

Actually my husband is doing great. He never once wanted to leave me, though he had every right to. I am continuously amazed at his love for me and I will never take that for granted again.

It's so true - people say that after an affair your marriage will be different but better. I can see that now, I really can. He tells me he appreciates me more, how he admires me for the things that I do. He said that he looks at the affair as if it was history, like previous boyfriends I had before we got married. I don't know if I could do that. He's forgiven me... He's a blessing.

I tried to get him to post here to give his side of the story but he's been so busy at work that the last thing he wants to do when he gets home is look at a computer screen.

My husband is very analytical, a complete opposite of me. It's hard to tell if he's still upset or not but he has learned to open up more to me in a way that makes him comfortable. I have to admit it's been difficult since we are both conflict avoiders but it's getting better.

I would love to see the scripture. You can send it to chacklerbelle@yahoo.com.

I have to admit I am not totally back with my walk with God but it's getting better. At first I was so ashamed that it took a lot just to approach God, I felt lower than dirt. It's not so bad now, but I do have my moments.

I'm sorry if I misled you on something - I read the book after d-day, but not long afterwards, maybe within a few weeks. I think Believer recommended it but I am not sure. It wasn't until a couple weeks of NC did the fog lift once in a while and I could see the deception that the enemy threw at me.

I highly recommend that book, Seeing the Unseen. There are some things in there that I don't totally agree with, but it's the core of it is great.


But again, I am rambling...

chack

well said meremortal!