Well, I moved my posts from "Just Found Out" to here. You can read my history under "Heard the Words". My H and I are barely speaking. I am doing Plan A and he is pretending like he's working on our marriage (even though I know he's still seeing the OW). He is moving out! He says we need time apart so he can sort out his feelings, but I know this means so he can see her without being inhibited by me or his guilt. He wants to be able to come and go as he pleases, without question, even though since I have been doing Plan A (this is the 3rd day) I have not said a word about any of this. Like I said, we barely speak, but at least when we do, it's not fighting or accusatory in any way. One thing I am curious about is, I tell him things involving our current life and things he should know about our home or business, and he remembers NOTHING.....it's like he shuts out my voice. I told him that I was going to be late coming home last night. He did not call me once throughout the day. When I got home last night, he tried to find out where I had been without actually asking me because he didn't want me to ask him where he had been. When I said, "I told you last night where I was going" he said, "oh, I forgot".....and once I was sitting right there talking to him about something, and he couldn't stay focused, he kept saying, "what, I didn't hear you" and I ended up repeating this 4 times. I asked him if he was sure he wanted to move..and he said he didn't "want" to move out, but being here was too stressful. Even though I'm virtually allowing him everything he wants at this point. I think he's resenting me because he doesn't want to leave our home and be inconvenienced. He may also be getting some pressure from her as well. Is he having mental or psychological problems? Or is this just an natural part of shutting me out..but shutting down. Any feedback is appreciated.

Ok now you know - tell us how long you have been married, any kids, have you told OW boyfriend? Are you plan A'ing. This is the time to read plan A and get busy. Are you reading any of the books ? They really help. You need to be strong now - this is hard. My WH had EA with woman from work for 2yrs. This is hard. So hard. I am sorry you are going through this .Others can be of more help.

We've been married 4 years but we've been together for 14 years. I have been doing Plan A, and I am also doing IC. He said he would go too, but now, he won't talk about it. He is desparate to move out, but he is concerned about the expense. He tells me that he wants to work on our marriage and not give up on it, but he makes no effort, his only effort is made in ways to speak to or be with the OW. After reading all of the posts and information, I understand where we are in all of this, it's just so difficult to do Plan A because I feel like I'm allowing him to continue with his A and lie to me. I have not purchased any of the books yet, but plan to very soon.

Forgot to answer your question regarding OW's boyfriend. I have not exposed to him yet because I don't know how to reach him. I only know his first name. They don't live together, and they don't work together. I am trying my best to find out his name so that I can take that next step.

I would finish exposure...his family, your family, friends, work (if need be), and DEFINITELY OW's BF. Be a detective.

Try to fulfill those EN's of his...I know, seems counterintuitive. Do you know what they are? Possibly Attractiveness of Spouse (dress up a little sexier) (that's my FWH biggie)?

When he moves out it would be good timing for Plan B.

Some insight (or what I think is going on) into the mind of the WH.

He is leading a double life...his mind is working overtime trying to keep all the lies straight. When he's with you he his thinking of her and all the lies he has to maintain with you...what he can't spill...what is safe to talk about. When he's with her he is thinking of you...the guilt...the lies he has to keep from her (a big one? "I'm not having SF with my W"). Yes, he is under stress, he has to keep two lives juggled. It only gets SLIGHTLY easier when he moves out...then he's got the guilt...

Plan A is important right now to show him the best of the M...the best you can be...it will remain in his memory during Plan B. He will remember the good times. Fulfill those EN's because OW will not be able to...and he will remember how well you did it...

You're probably right on with how he's thinking. All he ever says is that he's confused. Then he lies, and lies and lies...!! He wants to make this work, as he sneaks off to call her. He had alot of work to do, as he strolls in around 9 or 10PM....I'm doing Plan A...and it's the hardest think I've ever had to do in my life.

Nights are getting really rough. He won't let me fulfull even ONE EN. He is so wrapped up in her. He still says he is moving out to work on US, yet he hasn't gone anywhere and I know he is moving out to make this easier and guilt-free for him. Since doing Plan A we haven't fought, but we barely talk as well. He just won't and when he's around the house he is either watching TV or has his MP3 player blasting in his ears. I told him last night, just matter of factly, that I've read that once you separate you usually divorce, and he said, "well, then I don't know what else to do". He won't read anything I try to get him to so he can understand the falseness of his feelings and how she is fueling the fire. I think she is the one who is pushing him to move out. She is a three-time loser and a habitual adulterer! She won't leave her fiancee' because he has money. I'm still trying to find out who he is so I can expose her. How can I fulfill anything when he won't even speak to me!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I am acting happy and that has changed his attitude towards me, but he thinks I think that he has ended this, because he told me he would AGAIN!! But since we're in Plan A, I couldn't bring up that I know he hasn't!! What do I do now????

Yes you CAN tell him you know he hasn't ended it...Plan A does not mean LIE, it means you can tell him truths but in a loving way.

Try this next time he tries to convince you he's not seeing her,

"I hear what you're saying, but my gut instinct tells me differently. I love you and I want our M to work and be the best ever. There is no room for our M for a third person. I am trying to be the best person I can be and improve myself, it does not mean I agree with you having a GF. I love you and would love for me to be the only woman in your life."

Give him a kiss and walk away. Say this with a smile on your face and love in your eyes.

You seem to know quite a bit about the OW. Anyway you can find out more?

Hello steinla,

Glad to see you made it over here finally.

Listen,Plan A is designed to help negotiate the end of the A without DJ's,LB's and outbursts,etc and how to address the causes(choice to cheat).Many people mistakenly think that EN's are supposed to be filled during Plan A but Dr.Harley suggests that this be done AFTER the A is over.

Dr.Harley
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The BS should express a willingness to meet those needs after the A has ended </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most WS's do not want you to fill their needs since they are getting that from the OP and it's no wonder we have so many BS's going around feeling depressed and rejected when it's not reciprocated.Unless you are aware that your EN's will most likely NOT be filled by the WS and vice versa,you can set yourself up for failure.

Maintain your course of dignity,self preservation,care,honesty and openess with your WH but don't go overboard here and try to exact change.That will have to come from him but he seems more than willing to sit back and do nothing with regards to your marriage.Keep the time frames and find out who the OW's H is even if you have to hire a PI.We need to get this info out to him to help quash this A.

O

I have never understood Plan A to be a waiting period and a promise to fulfill EN's, but rather trying to fill those EN's as best we can.

I tried to find a Harley quote, here is an answer to a letter...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of his talk about the way he "feels" proves that he is addicted to his lover. So I recommend a three step plan to you.

The first step is to be the very best wife you can possibly be. Do everything you can to meet his needs, and don't do anything to upset him. Set a period of time that you think you can do this without getting too upset, say, six months. Once in a while, tell him that you think both of you need a fresh start somewhere else.

If he does not respond to your kindness and respectful suggestions within that period of time you're ready for the second step: pack up yourself and your children and move near your family and friends for their support. It should be far away from his lover -- another city or even another state. Have absolutely nothing to do with him. Don't talk to him, don't see him.

If you are forced to say something to him, tell him that you love him and hope he can free himself from the addiction of his affair. Let him know that the only way you will consider restoring your relationship with him, is for him to quit his job and move to where you are. From there you will start life over again. Be certain that your words and tone of voice communicate your care for him, not your anger.

Your husband is not likely to follow you right away after you've given him his ultimatum. He will try to develop a relationship with his lover first. But in the vast majority of cases, it doesn't work out because he needs both you and she. She meets some of his needs and you meet others. He will discover how much he misses you when he is with her.

In the event that he stays with his lover and he does not come back to you, you avoid untold sorrow trying to reach a man who is in love with another woman. As you wait for his decision, it is very important to surround yourself with your family and friends as you go through this crisis. In the end, if he chooses his lover, the experience will be much harder on him than on you.

If he eventually agrees to your terms, you begin the third step, which is to start again with a new commitment to meet each other's needs and avoid Love Busters -- in a new location.

At first, he will be depressed because he misses his lover. He goes through a grieving process that usually lasts a few weeks. For some, it takes as long as a year to overcome, but this is quite rare. His affair is an addiction, and the withdrawal from his lover, puts him into a very painful emotional state. If he calls his lover on the telephone, or inadvertently sees her, the clock is set back to zero, and the period of withdrawal begins again. That's why he must avoid all contact with her for the rest of his life.

After the period of withdrawal has ended, he will open his heart to you and give you a chance to meet his need for sex, and other needs his lover met. He will also learn to meet your needs, particularly your need for affection. You will have an opportunity to build a new lifestyle together, one that fits your needs so well that it will affair-proof your marriage.

When the ordeal is over, you will both know what a marriage should be -- what yours could have been, right from the beginning.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I copied all of it, because it gives a very good guide for how the steps work.

I've read many a person on here that has counseled with SH and he has suggested fulfilling those EN's,even requests the questionnaire is filled out ahead of time.

actions speak louder than words, and you have to show your S you are capable of fulfilling those EN's.

Then maybe he needs to revise his website because he is giving out dual information of how to address A's.I for one believe you can try to fill needs but I think many people do not realize that it mostly goes unnoticed or at least isn't reciprocated and may make a BS feel even more rejected and used.

IMO WS's mostly soak up all the attention from both parties and harldy make any changes themselves.

I also think that there is much else he could revise about his suggestions(i.e. the Plan A time frames).I don't agree with everything he talks about.

Also,it was clear that my Plan A was all about being a MAID all over again to my WH.That is all he recognized my efforts for,not for wanting to have a better marriage that we could both find healthy and fulfilling,for us and our children.

One example I find truly appalling is trying to meet SF needs while your WS is out having the same with the OP.I don't understand how people can do that if the A is ongoing.I would not.

I think the ENQ and filling EN's is more appropriately done when the A is over and you are both committed to one another,not the triangle.You can SHOW your WS(by doing the ENQ,reading,counseling,etc) that you are willing to meet EN's and work on the marriage IF and when the A ends.That to me is the clincher.I also don't believe EN's are the only reason(even that is questionable to me) for choosing to cheat.There is much more to the WS.

I just don't see the meeting of EN's while the A is ongoing working for many here.There are a lot of depressed and rejected feeling BS's going through this and wondering why when it doesn't appear to make much difference.And with 2/3rds of marriages succumbing to D after Infidelity,I myself am not convinced this is the best tactic,but that's just me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

It is very hard to meet the emotional needs of a detached person, however, I think Harley recommends that one try to do this in order to attract them back and convince them that the BS can and will meet their needs. Then follows Plan B, whose effectiveness is contingent upon this belief. What makes Plan B work is the belief, on the part of the WS, that his needs CAN BE met at home. This is the goal of Plan A.

Ideally, once the WS sees that he can his needs met at home, he realizes he doesn't have to go outside of his marriage to get those needs met.

That being said, Plan A is sometimes not enough to end the affair, hence Plan B.

So I agree very that a BS should TRY to meet those needs as best he can.

I don't know Mel.How can it appear to make a difference if:

a) the WS is so fog bound they can't see straight anyway.

b) they are so emotionally tied up with the OP that they do not recognize these attempts we do as anything but feeble.

This goes back to the assumption that EN's are the only deciding factor that a WS decided to cheat.I just don't buy into that.Of course we would all love to know what EN's each other have and have all the time to fill them every day.But how many non MB people know how to do this?

Using myself as an example again,like I have before,I was a really good wife.My WH admits this time and again,admits that I didn't deserve this and never once sat me down to tell me he was feeling X so let's work on our marriage.He admits he never told me he was feeling differently so I went along doing what I thought was what he wanted.Even on the ENQ I did really well.It doesn't add up for me.

In my case,it want' about meeting unknown ENs' but was more of a great turmoil that my WH was going through inside,much of which he has avoided taking a cold hard look at and had nothing to do with me really.It was his outlook on life and his perception of me that changed for some reason.

This is why I really do not see that many Plan A's working out,many are forced to go to Plan B.That is where the real changes take place I think,if at all.If we agree that the old marriage died,what does the WS think he is going to go back to? A life of unending emotional fulfillment and giving on our part?

Marriages are not an endless well of support,EN's,sex,comfort,etc,etc,etc.That is a huge role to try to(unrealistically) fill when we are dealing with men/women,families,children,bills,laundry,illnesses,aging parents,LIFE in general.It's life,not a fantasy.I still think that if the INDIVIDUAL isn't happy within themselves,no one will be the answer to them for very long.

Ok,I am just still trying to work this out in my own brain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

O

that may be the case in your situation, but in general, A's occur because a person finds themselves in a situation (or seeks it out) where an OP fulfills an EN that is lacking in their M. This is not ALWAYS the case, but most times.

Consider it a leak in the M boat. Plan A is about patching up the leak.

I have NEVER read anything on this site, in advice on the forum, in folks paraphrasing advice from phone counseling with the Harley's that said to wait to fulfill those EN's until the A ended.

Your situation may be different. Did you ever figure out what about your M created an atmosphere that allowed an A to happen?

OG,
I agree with you on some aspects from my personal experience. My WH has also been very confused detached and in turmoil for 2 years and getting worse until d day. He was barely talking to me at that point but during the 2 months of plan A he was much better although the A continued and he never even suggested it wouldn't.

Our marriage was sort of like yours in that I was a good wife. My rationalization for plan A was that it felt like the right thing to do to provide a safe environment for him if he should decide to come back AND not feed the A.

Did it work? no. after 2 months I asked him to leave and he took it very hard! Surprising isn't it?
I think he was really angry and not expecting me to do that as he wasn't expecting exposure which I did too, during plan A.

What have I learned? At least he respects me. He continues to pay for everything and has not contacted me directly except about some financial issues in HANDWRITTEN notes which I allow.

I hope Dr. Harley is right about the length of affairs but I have my doubts. So far, (2 1/2months) the A continues but he still pretends it doesn't exist. I don't really know what that means and nobody has been able to explain it to me. Could it be he's ashamed? too guilty?
I don't know.

It will be nice when there is an ending to this.

But again, I think the importance of plan A is to provide a safe environment for the WS to come back to when the A doesn't work out.

SHMI,

I do not agree with the assertion that I had a hand in "creating an environment" in my M that allowed an A to happen.I really and truly feel that is faulty thinking and unfortunately I hear it when people first arrive here taking unncessary blame.

And it's upsetting that this kind of thinking perpetuates the idea that anyone but the individual is responsible for their actions.No matter what our marriage was like,good or bad,no matter what I was like,good or bad,it was solely my WH's CHOICE to cheat.Period.There were several other options he could have taken to either improve our marriage or end it if he wasn't happy.

Marriages do not start out perfect nor do they ever attain that status,IMO.It's agrowth period for everyone.It's working toward a mutually fulfilling,balanced and healthy relationship that is to me fun and the goal of being married.Not going out and cheating because the marriage and the spouse didn't live up to some unrealistic expectations or By God things get tough and it's not so easy and without responsibilities.Isn't that what A's are about in general,escape,fantasy,excitement?

I find this idea that I had a hand in my WH choosing to cheat offensive actually.I would not blame my WH for any action or choice I made no matter what feeble excuse I was telling myself at the time and did anyway.

O

Sorry for the threadjack steinla.

edited for typos

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> I don't know Mel.How can it appear to make a difference if:

a) the WS is so fog bound they can't see straight anyway.

b) they are so emotionally tied up with the OP that they do not recognize these attempts we do as anything but feeble.

This goes back to the assumption that EN's are the only deciding factor that a WS decided to cheat.I just don't buy into that.O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But who assumes such a thing? I sure don't, and Harley doesn't. But.. the truth is that often it IS the underlying factor. Not always, though.

And sure, most WSes are so fogged out that they wouldn't recognize a met EN if it slapped them in the face. However, it does get through, and over the years I have seen many postive examples where a detached WS was attracted back to the BS because they started meeting their needs.

A WS needs to be assured that their needs can be met in the marriage if they come back. There simply is no other way to convince them of this if the BS doesn't try.

I agree that most have to go to Plan B in order to end the affair. That is exactly what Harley says. However, Plan B can be a RELIEF if the BS has not conducted an effective Plan A. [as effective as possible] But that is not an indictment of Plan A, no one ever said it was guaranteed to end the affair all on its own.

But please don't think I am saying that all affairs are the result of marital problems. I am not saying that, and Harley doesn't say that. My H's affair WAS NOT the result of any unmet needs and he admitted that. His affair was a result of his skanky character.

The saga continues. It seems as though WH isn't even trying to hide this anymore, although he thinks I am stupid enough to believe the lies he makes up and that he isn't moving out to carry on his A. He has tried to make every justification in the book as to why he must leave "for us to save our marriage". I made it clear, in a nice way, that we couldn't save our marriage if he continued his A, which again, he denies. He doesn't want to admit that this is our MAIN problem right now. He started again with the reasons, 1. he can't stand to be around me, 2. I irritate him just being in the house, 3. he doesn't call because he can't stand to hear my voice, etc. Sound like guilt to you? I know it's because he has replaced me and I only remind him of how much pain he has caused. I asked him what his plans are for the future and he said, "I would still like to hope that we can have a future together"...and I said, "we who, you and I or you and her". He said it scares him to death to move out, but he can't see any other way to try and regain the feelings he has lost for me. He's not going to regain anything as long as he's in this A. I know, by reading all of the information here, that this is all classic, but he won't even TRY to work on this. It's like the minute he turns out of the driveway, I cease to exist. He's on to work, and her, and he comes home later and later with every excuse in the book as to why he's late. All this week it has been that he has been looking for a place to move to...at 11PM!!! Then he has the nerve to say, "you're just so down on yourself", and I respond, "how would you feel about yourself if I was telling you the things you're telling me"? He said, "probably the same". I think there's nothing left for us but Plan B, and then probably divorce. I just don't see how we can save a marriage if we're apart, but he says it has to be this way. I just can't stand what he's doing and why he's doing it. He won't go to counseling! I feel he's just trying to start his new life! Now what?

One other issue that hasn't been answered here which I'm curious about. He still contends that it was I who made his feelings disintegrate because I was always on him, trying to find out the truth. He says that is what eroded his feelings for me, because I was being mean (by asking him questions about his infidelity that he continued to deny). Even after I found out the truth and caught him with her and he admitted to the A, he doesn't think that my harping at him was justified, and said if I hadn't done that, he probably could have ended it and came home. Does this sound logical. I know he's in a fog and I know I can't believe a thing he says, but is this even logical??? Please respond.

ok Steinla, please calm down and let us help you put a plan together. Your H was going to leave anyway, but he is using your rightful questioning as an excuse to leave. He is trying to blame this all on you. They all do that.

Stop paying attention to what he says. He is a drunk under the influence and you can't reason with a drunk.

StillMakingItHere gave you great advice. You need to stop all lovebusting, stop any whining and get to work exposing him TODAY.

Then ask yourself this question: if you were him who would you find more pleasant to be around? The OW or you? Does she nag him and carry him? Do you?

Who would you choose to be around?

My point is that you should act in a way that is attractive, not repellent. Please concentrate on that right now. No lovebusters, no accustions, no disrespectful judgments, etc.

When you do that, you just make him defensive - and a defensive man doesn't THINK about what he is doing because he is too busy defending himself.

That doesn't mean that you don't tell him when you are hurt, but do your best to smile and be pleasant because he is using your sour mood as an excuse to leave you. Don't give him that excuse, ok?


And stop trying to reason with a drunk. The next time he tells you he wants to leave, tell him: "I sure hate to see you go, dear, but only you can make that decision." Smile sweetly and LEAVE THE ROOM.

Now scroll back up and read StillMakingItHere's post, ok? Calm down and get going on your plan!

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>