So guys the story so far:

He has left saying there must be more to R than what we have. Had a taste of it with A and knows we are too broken to fix. Claims A is over, she has someone else, yet they still talk. I could never except continued C, phone only. I became untrusting, angry and scared, He said that I only pushed him to need to talk to OW. Chicken or egg!!!

Anyway my question is do you think he is still in fog so far along or is there no hope? I would have thought if things were going to get better they would have by now. If he has chosen to leave me again, what does that mean??????

S

He is still in the fog and babbling badly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Do you know what you need t/d?

L.

Orchid,

I just can't believe fog can last a year and a half!!!

I think you are going to tell me to Plan B. Am I right?

If so, give me some pointers. He says he isn't with OW but he no longer wants to work on us cos we are too broken.
So the basic Plan B letter etc doesn't really seem appropriate for me.

What did you have in mind?

S

I am new to this site and have heard plans A and B mentioned several times. Where can I find them? I am desperate to take positive action to save my marriage, even though he has zero willingness to save us at this point.

JodyM,
Wlcome and stay around, there are people here with a wealth of experience. Look through infidelity. If you can't find it look here later I will post the link for you.

Orchid,
Any answers for me?

S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong>He says he isn't with OW </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why do you believe this?

Either way, Plan B. Start with the Plan B letter in SAA and leave out any reference to OW. For example, instead of saving, "...until you can establish no contact with OW and commit to our marriage...", say, "...until you can commit to our marriage..."

In the meantime, don't give him any more excuses to claim you "pushed him to talk to OW." Anytime a BS LBs, this IS pushing the WS to seek comfort with the OP. The OP makes it ALL better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

WAT

Orchid and Wothatry,

OK so I leave out OW in plan B letter but...
it seems silly to suggest 'when you are ready to commit to the M" since has said he does not have any intention to work on this M any more. It makes me feel like I am the one living in false hopes and suggesting to H something he has clearly stated he has no desire for.

Am I making myself clear cos my mind is so blurry
S

Bump...

Orchid - I'm really keen to know what you had in mind. Are you there

S

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by arty:
<strong> Orchid and Wothatry,

OK so I leave out OW in plan B letter but...
it seems silly to suggest 'when you are ready to commit to the M" since has said he does not have any intention to work on this M any more. It makes me feel like I am the one living in false hopes and suggesting to H something he has clearly stated he has no desire for.

Am I making myself clear cos my mind is so blurry
S </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arty, why do you come here asking for advice if you are never going to take it? I don't understand why you keep asking for help and then quickly dismiss each and every suggestion offered? What is the point of asking in the first place?

Your situation just gets more and more hopeless as a result of your tactics. Your ideas got you in this mess while Marriage Builders principles have salvaged hundreds of marriages. When will you see that it is insanity to keep doing the same thing over and over again and expect different results?

Nothing will ever change for the better as long as you refuse to ever do anything.

What's the point of asking for advice that you will never use, Arty?

<small>[ March 14, 2005, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

Melodylane,

Thanks for your vote of confidence.

I may not have been able to follow MB principles all the time but I had my reasons. We are not all robots and it is unlikely that one solution fits all. if that was true MB could save all M.
I don't think I am here because of what I have done or not done. I did what felt right to me at each junction in this mess that my H keeps offering me.

All I wanted to know from all the vets out there was whether they thought at this stage there was any hope of saving my M. Or whether they felt like H does that we are too broken and I should just move on with out him?

I don't know if you have any idea how your harsh words feel. Ofcourse, I am partly to blame for where I am today, I am aware of that. I sit here tonight with my kids at their Dads for the first time, alone with my mess.

I don't need to feel like a child being slapped over the knuckles. I would have prefered kindness and support even if I have made some choices you disagree with.

S

Plan B is about the BS pulling themselves out of the triangle via NC with the WS in an effort to save what love they have for their M. Not love for the WS but love for their spouse. It's very different. Do you see it?

Whether plans A, B or whatever pushes the WS to the OP or not, is not what is important. That would happen anyway. Why? Because of that dern fog. The WS is on a destructive course and all your love can't stop him. The WS has to revert to an Xws or H and stop himself. You as the BS need to remove yourself from receiving the direct blows of the WS. It is not healthy to put yourself in harm's way.

Plan B is a protection measure not a fix measure. If plan B helps the WS see that you are NOT putting up with his A antics and refuse to enable the A, then maaaybe, just maybe he may come out of the fog. Even that could take a while. Recovery when it does start lasts usually twice as long as the A if not longer.

Right now you can't even think of recovery. What you s/b thinking of is strengthening yourself. More WS blows are coming. U must protect yourself.

Go back and read Wat's post again. Get yourself to a good MC or better yet, call Steve and get a plan together. Phone counseling w/Steve @ MB is worth every penny. Penny and Jennifer are also both worth their weight in gold. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have you read SAA and His Needs/Her Needs? Take a look at Love must be tough, this book is by Dr. James Dobson.

take care,
L.

Arty
MB has helped save hundreds of broken marriages.
It would save probably TEN TIMES MORE if BS adhered to the behaviours indicated by MB.

To some of us, for whom MB has worked in OUR situations and who have seen it work in countless others, it is very furstrating to see posts like yours.

Your situation is EXACTLY like saying:

"I know my kitchen is on fire, but I won't use the fire extinguisher. After all they don't work on all fires, and it might just make the fire worse. Can I have some sympathy while my house burns down around me , and I do nothing but worry and prevaricate please?".

DEAR Arty, we all know EXACTLY how you feel but you MUST take brave action in your own prtection to achieve ANY successful outcome. SO you think teh recovered marriages of folks like Orchid, Mel and Pep for example JUST HAPPENED while they did NOTHING ?

These folks are DYING to help you, but these wise folks are giving you options and you're just rejecting them all and wallowing in self pity.

Hardly any WS want to work on their M. Plan A/Plan B can help restore this desire if properly adhered to.

And even if your M is one of the monority that can't be recovered through MB, you can achieve a personal recovery like friend WAT has.

PLEASE Arty , take up the challenge of recovering your M.

All blessings. I know how hard this is for you and I pray you find courage to execute the right plan.

Orchid and Bobpure,
I am really not trying to avoid Plan B anymore.
I am trying to find out how you guys would advice me to impliment it within my specific situation.

As you know I have not had the typical story.
I tried to plan A for far too long and with varying success. He left not for OW but because he didn't want me anymore.

The bits that I find inappropriate for me are:
1.Sending him a letter I find a bit wierd. H has often said that my words do not corollate with my actions (ie I say I love him but I don't behave as if I love him). I think he would get my letter and just roll his eyes at me.
2. Is there a point to offering a new life together when he has made it clear he wants to move on without me. He does not believe I can meet his needs.
3. What would be the point of saying 'when you have ended C with OW' when he claims she has moived on.
4. Offering him to discuss a future together- he says he doesn't want a future with me.

I'm just not sure what to write in a letter that makes sense in my situation.

S

1.Sending him a letter I find a bit wierd. H has often said that my words do not corollate with my actions (ie I say I love him but I don't behave as if I love him). I think he would get my letter and just roll his eyes at me.
Well this is your chance to start having your actions match your words. A letter will be required as there is ZERO contact during plan B. WH can roll his eyes if he wants.
2. Is there a point to offering a new life together when he has made it clear he wants to move on without me. He does not believe I can meet his needs.
All WS say this. All of them. RIght now the important thing is do YOU believe you can meet his needs, and do you want to. If so you should fight on. Study the 'lovebank' theory of Harley. You can invest enough in his lovebank to set the scene for renewed love for you from him. Worked for me an many many others.
3. What would be the point of saying 'when you have ended C with OW' when he claims she has moived on.
Change the words then. " when you can demonstrate to me that you are not in an affair and have every intention of working on teh restoroation of our marrige" or similar. They all say they quit contact. They all lie. Can't help it during the fog of an affair.
4. Offering him to discuss a future together- he says he doesn't want a future with me.

They all say that. Don't discuss Jack Sh*t with him in Plan B. Just say in your letter that you want to work on a furture together with him, but you won;t stay in contact to be hurt and disrespected anymore. That he should contact you if/when he wants to try to work on your M and has evidently forsaken any extramarital contact.

Arty,

I'm not aware of your situation. Have you been in counseling at all? Like Orchid said - a good pro-marriage counselor is vital.

The coaching through MB is the very best....

Csue,

I am in IC. H not interested in MC

S

BP,
Thanks for answering my questions so clearly.
I do think at the moment he will think it a futile jesture but I will feel empowered to start calling the shots and controlling my destiny. I think at very least minimum contact will help me deal with my anger.

I will pen a letter and post it to you for suggestions,
Thanks again
S

Sorry BP,

Just reread your post and have a question.
You wrote:
You can invest enough in his lovebank to set the scene for renewed love for you from him

How is this possible in plan B?

S

Investing in lovebank is not possible in plan B, but neither is it while he is active in an affair, at least not without your self-respect being abused.

Active WS aren't normally receptive to having lovebank deposits.

Plan B removes all the benefits of being with you from WH so he can't fence-sit.

It also removes you from the repeated hurts and slights of his active affair and lack of contribution to your recovery.

In time many WS,decide they want to work on their M, and demosntrate to BS that they have quit their affair and are truly willing to work on the relationship. It is THEN you can work on filling hi s lovebank, once he is receptive to it.

Most WS in plan B try every possible way to stay in contact with the BS, so they do not feel so rejected and guilty.

You must stay dark. No direct comunication.

A few BS do not return to the M. If so, thats not the fault of plan B, that the fault of having an affair.

Arty, read up on plan B on this site and also in Surviving an affair. It will all become clear.

A caveat from me, I never had to go to plan B, exposure made the OM 'dump' my Squid before I needed to plan B. But I am confident enough that I know the tenets of PB to provide this level of advice. Other wiser heads may clarify.

But PLEASE study and build yourself a plan. Knowledge is power for BS.

All blessings.

never mind...

<small>[ March 15, 2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>