I've been 'clean and sober' since July 2004. My cayalyst was my wife losing the love for me. Very shortly after that I discovered a 'friendship' she had developed over the previous 7 months with a guy from my kid's school. Was met with all the denial until vivid proff was produced (cell phohne bill). Bought the 'just friends' line. Calls dropped off, wife made attempts to socialize with his family and me. A pattern of a few calls persisted and had me on gaurd. Just before Christmas I discovered a pattern of calls when she went out shopping. I also discovered a prepaid phone card that was used exclusively to call his cell phone. I had a chance encounter with OMW one evening and told her of my suspiciousions (exposure). My marriage has been thrust into hell ever since.

Now to the point of recovering alcoholics. I am one myself. Under a year of sobriety, so relatively new. My daughter needs counceling due to her making perceived suicide threats to classmates via AOL IM. The counseling center has recomended we bring her to a substance abuse focused counselor. I thought her problems were more related to the state of our marriage. I feel like we've been pigeon holed - 'oh alcohol abuse - substance counseling'.

My wife is raving mad at me since exposure. She just tells everyone she wants out of the marriage but is trapped due to kids and finalcial reasons. We've made some progress - from not talking to me at all to conversation becoming easier, but still a stark contrast to before exposure.

Some people have told me spouses get so caught up in the disease that they need to recover themslves as well. My wife has been with IC for over a year now. My IC says there has been a transference of sorts. I'm getting better and she is resentful and unaccepting of my changes. She refuses any MC on even alanon.

I guess what I'm looking for is stories advice from others who have been through simular situations.

She needs to go to Alanon. Part of her anger likely comes from the fact that an adult has moved into the house and is attempting to take away her position of sole power. It is a huge threat when a drunk sobers up and begins to assume some adult authority in the house. She is not used to sharing power with anyone.

This is a very common phenomena that we hear all the time in AA. Oddly, most divorces happen, not because the drunk didn't sober up, but because he did. Strange, huh?

unfortunately alchoholism is a family disease. your actions have taken their toll on the whole family. you all need to be treated---especially the kids. i have never been an alchoholic, nor my parent, nor my husband....how do i know what im talking about???? my teenage son was. the path of destruction was wide and took no prisoners....the one who suffered the most....his 9 yr old brother---he is still in some ways paying the costs for his brothers issues.

we found a wonderful counselor who deals solely with this sort of situation....she has been a godsend to us. the best way to find someone who does this is find a treatment program that specifically deals with kids in treatment....call and talk to the counselors and let them know you need someone for the whole family----kids included! good luck mark....

small correction here---i used the word was----my son IS an alcoholic.....my bad.

Melody,

My IC has said simular things. My IC has brought out a transferance that is happening. She is losing her authoritative grip on the family. She is now exhibitting more child like behavior. In the 20 years I've known her I had never scene her totally drunk (only mildly buzzed). Since my sobriety I've carried her home 4 or 5 times. She tells me 'you got to have one of these (meaning some delicous mixed drink)'. I have to tell her 'honey I can't...'. She's even lashed out by telling me my sobriety doesn't impress her and to her it makes no difference whether on not I was still an active alcoholic.

Mark,

I don't really have anthing to add to Mel and Nikko's response.

Just wanted to say I have a lot of compassion for your sitch, especially with your DD. And a WHOLE lot of respect for you for sobering up and taking the reigns, for all of your sakes.

Your daughter is very fortunate that you are dealing with this. I see so many kids around town whose parents are not whole and I sure do feel for them, and also of course can see that their own future is jeoperdized.

You go guy!

Hey Mark,

You may remember me... Gibby1...

Since the board changed I have not been able to log on, so I created a new user name.

I posted to you at the beginning because our situations were very similar. We are alcoholic (I'm sober 3.5 years), W having an EA but not owning up to any responsibility, anger, etc., etc.

We are still married, happier than we have been in years, but that does not mean it can't get even better. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

How did we start repairing our M? IMHO, I had to let her go first. Secondly, I had to become a happy person once again. I had to get a life, become interesting, aloof, mysterious, confident, loving,.....

I had to show her with actions over time that I want our M to work, but I will have a great life with or without her.

What do you do for yourself? Are you mysterious? Have you started anything new that is just for you? Hobbies?

I think when I first started posting to you, I mentioned that it took us 9 to 18 months for this process to start working. It has to be sincere though. You really do need to let her go...

Congrats on your Sobriety!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let me know if you any specific ?. I'm here to help if I can.


Blessings,
Gib

Mel said:


I ditto this. I was never interested in going to Al-Anon while my H was drinking ! I held the proud (dumb) position of being the real parent, the real adult, and enjoyed being the wounded martyr of my alcoholic husband. (this was my sick role in the alcoholic family, everyone plays a part)

When his A was over, my H went into AA (9.5 years now) .... and honestly, I was never more miserable than I was living with a newly sober man.

As you know, a drunk sort of freezes his adult development maturity level while drinking. So a newly sober alcoholic is a pain in the [censored] for awhile. Immature but grabbing on to authority like he knew something new that the rest of the world had never known. Tiresome. Annoying. And he just kept doing it ! He just kept reaching upwards .... like he knew he was capable of something better, and I knew (from experience) he was an immature jerk.

that was then, this is now

My husband is thoughtful, humble, and a reliable man to be with. I feel relaxed around him. I trust him. And yet ... I realize this could all go away if he decides to fall .... which can happen at any time.

So my task, instead of waiting for him to crash off the sobriety wagon, my task was to grow myself some courage, some confidence, and attend to my own inventory, and leave him to his.

The first 2 years of our sobriety coincided with affair recovery, and it was not pretty. In fact, I freely admit, when my husband was so happy and self-loving ... I became jealous of his growth because he was no longer stuck, and I was.... and being married to a drunk means everything bad is his fault .... but when he's no longer that drunk spouse I had come to expect, I now have ownership of my own unhappiness.... and I did not want to own it coz it's oh so much more fun to push it off onto him !!!!

~LOL~ (I am imagining Mel rolling on the floor right now laffin her Texas butt off)

But, no matter what ... YOU stick to sobriety, your own inventory and clean up your own mess .... and sooner or later, she's gonna have to clean up hers. I did.

Serenity to you

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

PS ... most alcoholics drink to quell anxiety ... so a newly sober drunk is anxious as hayul and lacks the tools to deal with life sober!

He went to so many damn meetings I thought AA had become his new mistress ~LOL~

Boy, that was NOT fun times remembering back.

I go to some meeting with him, especially when I am handing him a birthday cake.

Pep

Mark

I don't think you said you were going to AA. As you know it is a difficult job to stay sober and it is even harder to do it alone.

Of course I would recommend AlAnon for your wife and AlAteen for your child, I hope she is in IC as well. Many high schools today have counseling programs on their campuses. Churches have recovery programs. I can't recommend one in NY, but there has to be help there for you and your family.
H

I really liked Pep's post...Do they have a sense of humor in Texas?

Hi markNY,

It seems that Pepper was eerily similiar to how your wife seems to be now. When we meet people as they are now, it doesn't seem possible that they were that way then. It's strangely comforting, don't you think?

However, in the case of Pepper, I'm not sure if that's comforting or scary! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Have you read Ark's post about threadjacking Pepper--and Pepper thinking of turning toothpaste submission into something sexy? If you haven't, go read it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

Strange to imagine that your wife now could become the one writing (and doing) things like that one day. Something to look forward to!? Take note of Pepper's timeline too. It doesn't happen overnight. Take note also that it seems that her H was the one to lead the way.

Lead the way markNY, your wife just might follow.

Take care <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for all the replies. Pepper seems to closely parelell my situation so does Gibby. I am unaware of the damage done to other family members. My kids grew up in the environment and maybe didn't realize what was happening. Funny thing when I stopped drinking they noticed something different but couldn't but their finger on it. One day my S7 asked me why I hadn't had a beer in a while. I asked him if he wanted me to have one. He just said he'd get me one if I wanted. Just told him I didn't feel like having one (yes stuff stayed in the house and I didn't go for it). My D10 only noticed when shopping with mommy and asked if she should pick up some beer for me. Mommy told her I didn't drink it anymore. D12 never said anything. That was late last summer when things were honestly improving, even got an I love you from the wife once. Then the stuff with her friend started up again....

I do attend AA meeting, not as much as I should and I think my sponser has written me off. JUst found a group up the street from work that does lunchtime meetings. Think I'll drop in tomorrow.

I still feel like I'm in damage control mode with my wife. After disclosure things have not been the same. I am also fairly certain there is still contact between her and OM. It also concerns me that his marriage is in trouble over this too (as per OMW).

I guess for now take care of myself and fullfill my family obligations. AA is good place where you can be yourself. My D12 should start counseling soon. It is expected this will involve various family members. Maybe something will get through to the wife. She does exhibit signs like you have all mentioned. She still blames me for all her unhappyness and that has more to do with blowing up her friendship even though she won't admit that.

Mark,

Just wanted to say that I also agree with Pep's post. It's spot on.

The 6 - 9 months after my H joined AA and became sober were actually some of the worst months I've spent with him. I thought about divorce much more during those few months than the entire time he was drinking.

I think the only thing I would add to the other posts is that the 'sharing of feelings' also was a factor for me. When my H was drinking he did not communicate with me, did not share feelings, did not meet my needs, etc. I asked over and over for these things for a long time. When H my got sober, not only did I suddenly find myself with a responsible adult, but one that decided to share his feelings and meet my needs. It took me a long while to believe it (first of all) and handle all that.

Take care.

sss

I was with my xWS when he was using, and when he finally got into Recovery and stayed in Recovery.

I did have to get used to the idea of sharing household/ family decisions. As much as I didn't like being totally responsible for decision making, I still didn't trust his judgment for a very long time into his Recovery (two years?). And, it was a big change to get used to having to consult with someone else to make decisions.

But, a few other things happened for me when he got into Recovery. One, I finally started to focus more on my needs and wants. No more living around his active addiction, dealing with his crap and its day to day effects on myself and our kids.

Two, I felt that I could finally share my feelings with him..and be heard by him...and hear him accept accountability for his behaviors. As I said to him, "You at least went through your active addiction "medicated". The rest of us dealt with it straight up."

Three, I made clear to him before he discharged from his last residential Recovery program that I wasn't sure our relationship could be worked out even if he was clean and sober. That so much pain had happened, that I was tired of dealing with the whole mess, tired of not having my needs met,etc. I acknowledged that I was an adult and had made the choice to stay during his active addiction, but that I wasn't sure I wanted to continue staying. He told me that he respected my feelings, could understand how I could feel that way, and knew that he had no right to expect that I would stay with him. He said he hoped that I would and that we could work things out. He said that he knew it was his responsibility to work his program and earn back my trust. That acknowledgment alone was a big start to our healing process.

Four, just knowing that he was on the road to Recovery, gave me more peace in knowing that if I left him, he would be better prepared to handle it. (I know! Very co-dependent of me!)

Five, I soon recognized that he still wasn't going to be very available to me even when in Recovery. He was going to at least 5 meetings a week. I knew that for him, his recovery had to come first, and that's how many meetings he felt he needed. His new friendships were being developed with his NA/AA members, and I wasn't included. He still wasn't emotionally very available because he was trying to find out who he was, how he felt, how he would deal with life, as a clean and sober person....and NOT PICK UP. Even though I understood this, there were many times I felt cheated and angry.

There was no other man in my life, which is a big difference from what you are dealing with. Had there been another man there to support me, meet some of my needs, I probably would have been very tempted to leave. As it was, I loved my husband, and I was use to living with him not being very available to me. At least there wasn't the chaos in our lives anymore.

He continued going to AA/NA and group counseling. I went for IC. We eventually had some marriage counseling. We had many good, fulfilling years together.

Not sure this is of any help. It might give you a few ideas about things your wife might be experiencing.

SSS,

Yeah I guess it tales time and I'm OK with that. My wife still looks at my exposure to OMW of something impropper as the last straw for her.

Heart,

I see signs of those very things you descriped. After rehab my wife was not very promissing of staying around. Then I descovered her 'freind' just 2 weeks later. I didn't need that on top of everything else. I feel there is a lot damage done by my drinking. A lot of resentment from my wife when I sobered up. A big change in family dynamics occured. I went through that 5 day a week meetings thing also. It scaled back fairly quickly to a few nights.

I do think we need some marriage counseling and soon if we are going to keep this together. She still has tons of anger from disclose almost 5 months ago. It's fading every so gradually, but it is still very intense. She says she's given up, but still can get riled up as to write 3 page emails bashing me. In a way thats good. I wish they were 3 pages of love notes.

I still haven't found out when counseling for my D12 starts. Its to be with an alcohol specialist and in a family therapy set up.

I hope to work through counseling with my wife so we can both start airing our gripes and get some objective advise. I'm willing to admit my faults, but I'm not the only one that did wrong here.

Once again thanks to everyone who has shared so far. It is enlightening. Anyone else please air your experiences.

Mark

The "blame game" is a viciouis cicle that only produces resentment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not the only one that did wrong here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

No you are not the only one who did wrong but blaming makes every one helpless.

I grew up with an alcoholic father and several alcoholic uncles. I never spoke to him or my mother about it. I didn't even know what I was missing because I had nothing to compare my family life to except other alcoholic families. I ahve passed what was "built in me" to my children and I am not an alcoholic but I behave like one so I figure that makes me "close enough" so I have gone to AA,ALANON,ACA and anything else with an "A" in it. Just when I think I am done I realize I am not done (sigh). I've decided I have to keep working on it because I'll never be "done."
H

Hiker,

You're right blaimng gets me nowhere, but it's hard to keep my mouth shut when I get blamed for everything. Recieving this on a daily basis on reachees his limit. I swear she could piss off the pope. I've been married to her nearly 17 years and still not used to it, and now she upper the dose. I'm getting a thicker skin, and realize not to take to heart whats said in anger.

Yes I learn from AA and counceling. The latest has been a wall I built to keep people at a safe distance. Now that I now its there I can figure out why and then how to tear it down.

On some good news during the Saturday night agrument she did say something about going to alanon. I talked about the posts I recived on this thread and that's what started the Saturday night thread. I think it was the part about dealing with the new responsible adult in the home.

One day at a time, even with fragile relationships.

Mark...just a thought

When your wife starts off on her rants/raves you might try asking her "What do you need from me right now?" or "Is there anything you want or need from me right now?"
For example, she may want another apology...she may want you to tell her, again that you recognize all the pain your addiction caused her....she might need you to "just listen" and not justify, apologize, etc.,or try and "fix it"...she might need a hug...she might need some space..etc. If she says "Nothing!". Perhaps respond, "OK, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something that you felt could be helpful to you."

Mark,
I suspect the reverse, healthy side of the thick skin you talk about developing...and the "wall" you've developed.. is really about developing "boundaries". Drugs and alcohol can also be very effective ways to shut people and negative behaviors out.(But not in the long run!) It sounds like your wife could also be caught in the traditional "victim" role, if she has had this type of behavior for several years(blaming). Being a victim can sometimes give someone an excuse for not accepting responsibilities for their own choice, behaviors, etc. If I can blame it on someone else, I don't have to look at the fact that I have a role in it...and might need to change..

Just a few thoughts.

Last night wife opned up some talk, calm talk! Funny thing about our blow ups, the after effects are good, I think. I went outside for a smoke last night and lingered outside for a bit longer (nice night here in NY). My wife came out under the pretense for a smoke also (she's a light closet smoker). I started the BS small talk and she cut to the chase. Tonight's topic was respect.

During Sunday night's mildly heated discussion (as opposed to the Saturday night blow up), I clearly and repeatedly stated a boundry of mine. I will not stay with someone who has no love or respect for me. That was the statement she opened the talk with. SHe told me how I had no respect for her. I didn't appreciate what she did around the house. One topic that comes up is my walking on her newly mopped floor. Other things were my not picking up my dirty clothes until they became quite a pile, my not helping with the kids when they were over whelming her. Then there was the weekends when she'd work, she would get home and I'd take it as the shift change. Ah mommy's home now I can go have a few beers and neglect the family.

I basically agreed with her, but I said a few things in my defense. Not so much to dispute her feelings, but explain myself honestly. For example her coming home from work after a 12 hour shift. I said yeah I did feel like my job was done when you came home and it was Miller time. I also explained some of my behaviour was part of a power struggle of mine resisting her attempts to 'change me'. I pointed out the laundry issue. One night she called me over and directly approached me to say I have to pick up after myself, that it deeply bothered her. Guess what happened after that? I started picking up after myself. I told her I responded better to that than the rant 'I'm doing the wash right now and if your stuff aint in it it's not getting done.'

We played games with things. She wouldn't come right out and state her point, rather use rants that caused me to rebel. While I undrestood what she wanted I was just too damn stuburn to give in. Even though her approach was less than mature my digging my heels in was even more immature.

She also said she can't forget these things. They are amoung a host of other 'little things' that, over time, just got her fed up with me. I started a little talk about forgiveness v forgetting. You will never forget, thats how you learn.

I also mentioned some of the things people have posted here about being the spouse, parent, etc of an addicted person. Explained the 'family disease' concept and a transference of sorts thats occuring between me and her.

On the topic of transference she told me 'so you feel lonely now' and patted me on the shoulder. 'So how's it feel?'

Well we're talking more or again and I think that's a good thing.

Mark

The more you go to AA the more you will find out about what is inside you. Hopefully she'll go to ALANON...frequently the meetings run concurrently. So much of the problems we have is communication based...what we say and what we hear. He need to get the messages to each other and both of these organizations can help with helping us understand our loved ones.

I have been to ALANON meetings when the AA meeting was next door and the contrast is remakable. In the ALANON meeting there are tears and dispair the AA meeting sounds like a celebration. The alcoholic and the non-alcoholic are worlds apart. The non-drinker reacts to the drugs/booze the user reacts to the reaction. We become so one sided in our approach to one another that we miss meeting the needs that lie deep within our souls. We become experts in delivering pain and have no idea how to heal the hurt. The alcoholic drinks the non-alcoholic accuses and they both become helpless.
H