I am a holder too. I've been trying to evaluate the why's and how's of it and if any recovery is possible for me. My H is not happy about some of my holding patterns.

Maybe you just need to cogitate for a bit. I know you spoke with SC and are formulating your plan. I understand that these are your choices even if you choose the status quo.

We all wish you the best.

LOL LOL LOL

It's been a long time since I heard anyone say "Jiminy Crickets"...

I know where he lives, abduction can be arranged !

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

It seems to me something about 2long’s (and my own) situation is being overlooked in the advice given here. All good and true advice, for sure. But something very strong is holding us long term affair BSs back. I have seen it on almost all LTA BSs threads. The threshold of decisive action is really, really high. Why is this?

I think a huge confusion factor exists wrt to LTA’s. Deep confusion that does not go away with time and tends to paralyze the BS.

Our Ms were not unendurable while 2long’s and my Ws were in their long, long As (around half of both our Ms). Even though OM was always in the background somewhere, and there were all these hidden barriers to deep intimacy that we couldn’t explain, we thought and felt things were on the whole good, wholesome and true. Our WWs somehow found a perfect balance between two parallel lives.

This balance is due in part to the fact that they trained us very well over many years to be the perfect H. We have been expertly conditioned by our WWs to be completely predictable. Pavlov could not have done it better. They know exactly what to say, when to ring the bell and precisely what to do in every tense moment. To keep an LTA going, our Ws have become masters at keeping us right where they want us. It’s almost as if we have no free will in the matter any more. It's also why they never left the M - we are very good at meeting their ENs.

When I think about the aftermath of an LTA compared to that of a BS dealing with a ONS or a regretted fling (less than a couple of years, say) I get an image of an all out nuclear war compared to a big but localized earthquake. After an earthquake, you rebuild – even if it’s after moving to a new house or town. After an all out N war, the few survivors barely cling to life by their fingernails. And there isn’t anywhere else to move to either.

LTAs feel like that. Everything glows eerily in the dark. Everything is too hot to touch. We are hanging onto shadowy memories even though we know they are not real any more. But that’s all there is left, actually. So we hang on to what little we have and just survive from day to day for as long as we can.

My W even said once, “What was so bad?” Well, how would I even put my finger on it? It is everything that was bad. Everything, big and little, that I thought was good is in fact bad. There is nothing left.

Yet, because I was so skillfully manipulated and conditioned for so long I find myself almost believing her. If she could make me feel things were good when they weren’t, and I still love her (unconditionally? – a separate thread) why not just keep at it until I die? I did literally promise that after all.

I guess where I am trying to go here is to describe the feeling that even though we LTA BSs were married a very long time to a virtual bigamist, still it wasn’t so bad if we pretend to not notice that one little problem. Why give up what tiny little happiness we have left? And if we could only just grab that elusive NC ring....

OK, please hold the 2x4s. I know that the logic is faulty. I am expressing feelings and emotions here. It isn’t logical. And that is the real tragedy of what our W’s have done. They have applied such consistent pressure for so many years that we LTA BSs are warped. We don’t think the same as the rest of you any more.

The most effective prison is the one we impose on ourselves. Our Ws have conditioned us to fear our freedom as much as we loath the LTA. It is truly a living hell.

2long is, I hope beyond hope, finally getting to a break-out place. He is giving me some hope that I too might someday...well, do something.

Arrghh.

Look. I'm not judging here. Well, maybe I am, but I am not being judgemental.

When I was 20, I would have said affair=over, no questions. But then she and I WROTE a history together. Had kids together. All that.

Here comes the A. And the older, wiser, seasoned me said, "Ya know, this isn't a dealbreaker as a matter of course." And I forgave and worked on the marriage.

Now 2Longs "threshold" of how much he is willing to endure will be different from mine. Different stuff invested, different history.

If the status quo is OK with him, then it is OK with me. There are people who have OPEN marriages. More power to them. I don't agree, but I am not going to condemn them.

2longs boundaries are being violated. It mattes not whether we agree with them, they are HIS boundaries. All it does is drive our opinions. Lord help us if we start judging him for them. They are his.

He has communicated these boundaries clearly to his WW (I hope, I mean we don't really KNOW that he has).

She has chosen to ignore them.

2long is now faced with a decision. And it will be the SAME should he chose to make it this minute or next month.

Is it REALLY a boundary?

NO - Then he has to accept that this will be how his marriage will be and he has to GET OVER IT.

YES - Then he has to enforce that boundary and show her that he will not accept her behavior and GET OVER HER.

He can make the choice of no choice, remain in pain, and see if she comes around. Not likely. 2 years is plenty of time to wake up and smell the coffee. And he will post he is in pain. And we will comfort him because we care about him. And eventually we will start cutting and pasting our responses because I don't think the WW will change without a catalyst.

Bottom line, if 2long wants to end the pain, he has two choices: get over IT or get over HER.

Again, not a JUDGEMENT on 2long. I have no idea what he has at stake in this. Just calling what I see. And trying to be a little provoking. Hear it takes a while to get a wookie to do anything.

NCW

Here's the faulty logic: you are confusing cause with effect.

We didn't suffer LTAs because we cut them off while they were still STAs. That's why we haven't gone through what you have. I expect if a lot of us hadn't, say, gone to Plan B as I did, our situations might have evolved into ones akin to yours. We didn't tolerate it.



Yes. The longer one postpones action, the harder decisive action becomes. One's will erodes. The intolerable becomes more tolerable with repetition and familiarity.

That's why I don't think 2Long is at "breaking point," as you do. As shown by his subject heading, this is just the three-millionth D-Day.

One thing I do notice, Aphelion, is that your posts on this thread tend to be long -- not complaining, I don't mind at all. But you both have kind of wordy descriptions and rationalizations of your situations. I think that's the sign of eroded will, and the kind of mind-set that allowed these situations to become what they are.

That's why I'm suggesting, as one alternative, that 2Long drop the rationalizations, the explanations, the verbose theories -- and just accept his situation for what it is, and his lack of decision-making for what it is. Drop the lies -- the idea that she's about to change, or the situation is about to change, just as he listens to WW's lies about how she's not responsible for the break-up of RM's marriage, and that she's going to taper off contact, whatever (lies, lies, lies). Face it for what it is.

Oh well, I'M becoming verbose, now!

OK 2long, you may not agree with everyone, but at least say HI so they know you are reading.

SS

I agree with A.M. Martin that many of us would be in similar places dealing with LTA's had action not been taken.

With my H's on again off again 4 yr A...each new D-day called for raising the bar for reconciliation...(all pre-MB, but at some point I had read 'Love Must Be Tough'...and then HNHN). 1st on the list was that he had to leave/move out. The last time, he finally moved in with FOW which faciliated the final end of that A, within a couple of months.

2long, you might not remember me, but I've followed your story all along from the lurker's perch.
I just wanted to send you a hug (((((((((((((2long))))))))))))
You have been given wonderful advice, and I hope you can figure out exactly what you need to do to be happy.
You deserve it, very very much.

AMM; "The longer one postpones action, the harder decisive action becomes. One's will erodes. The intolerable becomes more tolerable with repetition and familiarity."

A: Exactly. That's why I wrote, "...that is the real tragedy of what our W’s have done. They have applied such consistent pressure for so many years that we LTA BSs are warped. We don’t think the same as the rest of you any more."

AMM: "One thing I do notice, Aphelion, is that your posts on this thread tend to be long..."

A: Got it. Sorry.

So your kind of like a frog being boiled to death.

OR, you are kind of like victims of the Stockholm Syndrome.

No, no, no! I like your posts, Aphelion! It was an observation, not a criticism!

Wow, there's 2 more pages after this?

JL, I want 2 respond 2 you first.

You know me a lot better than you give yourself credit for. I am a holder.

In my workshop in the basement there's a box of household nails that my dad bought 40 or 50 years ago. I've used one or two, but I'm very careful of that box. Why? It's not even particularly valuable.

A couple of times in the past 20 years, though, I've grit my teeth and got rid of piles of old stuff I've kept but never used.

I try not 2 think of my family, particularly my M, in such terms, but the truth is that, unless SHE decides 2 make a fundamental shift in her consideration of me, I'd just as soon be done with this relationship. It has been a strained friendship held 2gether by 30 years of emotional fusion. By my W's own admission (such as it is), it was "ac2ally pretty good for the first 15 years", but you know? I remember an EA she had 23 years ago that tore me apart emotionally at the time, and we never really addressed in any positive way. So, for me it was maybe the first 6 or 7 years of our M that was "pretty good."

Now, I hang on because I do love her, but even though I've felt like I had come 2 a pretty good understanding of what emotional fusion and differentiation (David Schnarch, Passionate Marriage) means, I've fallen in2 a pseudo-comfort trap over the past months because I truly believed that contact had ceased in August last year (she changed the phone accounts so that her cell is on the same bill as the land line, and it shows incoming and outgoing calls, and there have been none 2 or from him since then), when in reality email contact continued (whether that was 'only occasionally', as she claims, or 3 times every 5 minutes I don't know or care).

...the upshot of this long-winded post is that I agree with you, and maybe that's why I don't feel like I could do plan B - I would be done right away, because I SHOULD HAVE been done 23 years ago. Our marital relationship is now "complete". We just need 2 realize it and let one another go for keeps.

That's how I feel.
-ol' 2long

2L,

I sort of agree that plan B does not seem very advisable given the nature of this. I think you got the jest of what I was trying to convey. We often hold things that are NOT of value and when push comes to shove we only get rid of them when forced to evaluate their value in our current situation.

Sort of like when moving offices or houses. Lots of stuff that we valued, but do we "really need to move this?" "How long has it been since we used it or found it useful?" I know once I have done that, then I can get rid of stuff. But, my basic nature is as I described; a holder.

So as a fellow "holder" I would suggest you need to decide if what baggage you need to carry forward into your new life. You new life starts this very next second by the way. If you were a decaying muon, that second could last a long time, if you are moving fast enough, or go by very quickly if you are not. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> It is all relative as you know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

You rock guys think a few mil is a short time. Us guys think a second is a long time. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Must go. I truely wish there was something I could do, but frankly what needs to be done SHE must do and if she won't then you must do what you must do.

Take Care,

JL

bwaHAHAHAHAHA!!!! LOL!

You guys are great! Abduct away!!!!! (2long puts hands behind back, 2rns 2 face them 2ward the kidnappers)...

-ol' 2long

Don't tempt us -

SS

Okay, I'm still reading, and I may correct myself after I go farther, but AMM said:

"Here's the faulty logic: you are confusing cause with effect.

We didn't suffer LTAs because we cut them off while they were still STAs. That's why we haven't gone through what you have. I expect if a lot of us hadn't, say, gone to Plan B as I did, our situations might have evolved into ones akin to yours. We didn't tolerate it."

You seem 2 be implying that we ended up subjected 2 LTAs because we didn't put a stop 2 them before they became LTAs. We weren't AWARE of them before they'd already been carrying on, at a very low level, for YEARS.

Aphelion described how I've felt but couldn't put my finger on EXACTLY.

-ol' 2long

AMM:

But 2 be a little kinder:

"That's why I'm suggesting, as one alternative, that 2Long drop the rationalizations, the explanations, the verbose theories -- and just accept his situation for what it is, and his lack of decision-making for what it is. Drop the lies -- the idea that she's about to change, or the situation is about to change, just as he listens to WW's lies about how she's not responsible for the break-up of RM's marriage, and that she's going to taper off contact, whatever (lies, lies, lies). Face it for what it is."

You are right on the money here.

-ol' 2long

We had to meet with the cabinetmaker this morning just before lunch. I just got in a while ago.

I agree with just about everyone.

(except 2long).

-ol' 2long

ALW! Of course I remember you! I posted 2 your thread a few months back, but I don't think you saw it.

Hope things are good with you and H.

-ol' 2long