I am struggling with my WH views of playful flirting with women. He says that it is not meant to be malicious or to get them in bed or something. He has always had women friends and really no men friends. Now since DDay 6/7 and his affair was exposed. I don't want any "flirting" with other women. It makes me physically sick to see.

In his IC, the therapist has told him that we need to find common ground... Someone please help me with this subject and dealing with "playful bantering" with women.

Thanks for your input.

My take.....there does not need to be ANY interaction with the opposite sex for a long, long time. My H, too has always been "friendly" with women,,, kind of a "safe" flirt, but now realizes how that helped him cross boundaries into territory that got the A started....intimate conversation,etc...so he knows now (and agrees) that I am not at ALL comfortable with interaction with women and I don't even want him lingering in his glances at other women. I know the day will come when I am not so sensitve, but it isn't today and I know it will not be for some time to come!! He thinks I am being fair and doing his best to make me feel safe. Just my take on things....the burden of responsibility is on him.

Seriously, if your husband's IC really said that, advise your husband to get another counselor. There is no "middle ground" on this issue. Married people flirting with anyone other than their spouse is out of bounds and disrespectful to the spouse. The flirting is one of the reasons he got into this whole mess in the first place and any counselor worth his or her salt would have said that without batting an eyelash.

Methinks your WH is telling you the counselor said this to get you to question your wisdom in requiring no more flirting as ground rule no. 1. He gets an emotional lift from flirting with other women because they respond. He needs to get that lift from YOU, not them.

Lovingly stick to your guns and tell your husband you'd like to discuss this together with him and his IC. See how fast he backs off on his claims.

Hang in there.

~ Snow

Exactly. This is why I sometimes have to question all of the hoopla and credit given to getting "counseling"....WTF? Most of these "counselors" couldn't find their A-hole with a funnel...ok, this is probably out of bounds and will be delted...but I will wait for that to happen and not delete it myself.

Sour....... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I personally don't believe flirting has a place in marriage except between husband and wife - and this coming from a woman who loved to flirt...my views have changed alot.

I also know though, many couples who both flirt and still have a very healthy marriage. It is something that is part of who they are their marriage and with a trust they have for eachother. i don't believe this is wrong either because they are concenting and are okay with it.

In your case though - you are NOT okay with it, and that is the MAIN reason he shouldn't be flirting.

It's like porn - in a healthy trusting relationship, many people watch porn together as it is something they enjoy, something they don't mind eachother doing...but when one person enjoys it and the other doesn't - this is NO LONGER healthy...if he is flirting when it harms you and makes you feel badly - then there is NO place for flirting in that relationship and he needs to STOP.

Don't back down on this one...marriage is full of comprimises yes, but on something like this - you need to stick to your guns as this is not something as simple as comprimising on a sport he plays, etc...this is interaction with other women.

The MAIN reason he should not be flirting is because he has a NEED to flirt and it led him into this spot. How his wife feels about it is important, but secondary. The couples who successfully flirt with others are no comparison because they haven't cheated. Still, I think they are flirting with danger.

~ Snow

The counselor we went to would never have made this kind of statement. There are good counselors and bad, Lemon. The bad are a dime a dozen. The good are a gem to be treasured.

~ Snow

Good grief, you shouldn't compromise or "find middle ground" with wrong doing. Flirting is an extremely destructive, demeaning practice to a spouse. Don't even settle for that and don't let anyone convince you that you are somehow warped for refusing to settle for that. Flirting while married is grossly disrespectful to the spouse.

Find a counselor who isn't a moron, please.

BINGO!! Good GOD, some of these people don't have the common sense God gave a goose. I thought you were quite.....restrained in your remarks, Dr Sour! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hi BL,

I agree with the other's about flirting being inappropriate.We had a thread going long ago that was great.A real eye opener for everyone here on the differing views about flirting.Also,how coincidental it was to be present in marriage that involved Infidelity.

I believe it is wrong and is not "harmless" as many people ascribe to.If you are married or with a SO then you just should not be engaged in this kind of behavior.Like snowbelle said,there is NO middle ground and I would also see this as an unfavorable response by your counselor and suggest maybe finding a new one.If this counselor feels this way about flirting,then there are bound to be other views that you may not share either.It's like the suggestion that an A can make a marriage better.Well,I don't believe that at all(you can *survive* it) although I know some people feel this way.However,I can think of many other ways to improve a marriage without all the severe pain that goes along with it(A).

Respectfully disagreeing with deeplysorry on some points,I just feel that flirting,along with other issues,can place you on that slipppery slope where someone in the marriage inevitably gets hurt and feels resentful.And as deeplysorry mentioned,t's one thing to compromise on,say,computer usage,sports related activities and sexual frequency,etc but flirting with other's while married has no place in my book.I find it disrespectful,humiliating and degrading to the marriage.My WH used to do it too and wondered why I felt so insecure about it and that I felt it was wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

O

Still LMAO after 10 minutes!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Good points October Girl - I know I wholely agree with you - in my personal marriage - flirting no longer has ANY place...it is wrong. I just do know a marriage that is very strong, where they both flirt and accept it is who they are and also don't hide, don't shame eachother and very much so flirt with eachother - they have set boundaries and it works for them....it would NEVER work in my marriage, and I would never expect my H to put up with nor would I put up with it.

I definately think that councellor is a quack.

Thank you so much for your wonderful words and thoughts. It has reassured me on my views. I strongly feel that H has been doing it so long that he doesn't even see what he does. I felt the same way about the counselor and I commented about his credentials and experience with MC and infidelity. H seems to think he is making progress with him. Ugh!!!

H said that he didn't think it was fair of me to ask him to give up female relationships that he has had for years, ie female married co-workers in his office that he confides in.

I am still trying to figure out if I can live with the affair much less his current female relationships. His affair started out as "friends" too!!

Squd and I have POJAed that any 'flirting' that the spouse wouldn't do in the happy presence of the other spouse is not acceptable.

When we POJAed this I found myself even reviewing my behaviour with other women. What I did not consider flirting, quite clearly was.

Squids flirting contributed enormously to her affair in both our opinions. OM and Squid were both outrageous flirts and neither backed off as it escalated.

Your Hs's IC needs to be buried in 'common ground'.

He should have no relationships with other females and he most certainly should not be confiding in other females. That is a recipe for disaster and is just asking for trouble. No responsible MC that understands infidelity or marriage would recommend that he do that.

For example.

Squid has decade old relationships with Karate friends who are men.

After our POJA about flirting a couple of months ago, I saw a TXT she received from one of them that said " Darling, can you open the class tonight a sI will be a few minites late love me XXX"

I asked Squid if it ws acceptable and if this mans wife would be happy to see such exchanges.

She sheepishly said it was not although it was just a joke.

She asked the man to stop,a nd he sought me out and apologised to me at a sport event the following weekend.

This is another reason why transparency is so important for a FWS to adopt in recovery.

I am not a killjoy but such is absolutely diusrespectful to me.

bl, can I make a suggestion? You have some very serious issues here, namely serial cheating and persistent destructive personality traits on the part of your WS that create bigger problems than most marriages. You need a counselor that understands infidelity in order to save your marriage.

Your current MC does not, as you can see. Anyone that could suggest you "compromise" on a something so destructive as flirting, especially after multiple infidelities, is a moron. This C is simply telling your H what he wants to hear. Instead of expecting your H to raise his standards, he is lowering the standard to accommodate your H.

I would implore you to call up Steve Harley and let him assess your situation. He is a PRO in this field and will not waste your time with this placating nonsense. He will tell you what you NEED to hear instead of what you want to hear. He will give you a plan and show you the way through this mess. He is expensive, about $180, but he is real pro and can do in 1 session what your current MC will never acheive.

Not to validate his flirting, but does he flirt with you and if so, are you receptive to his flirting?

His behavior with other women is not acceptable but it could be an indication of unmet emotional needs.

What are his 'reasons/excuses' for the affair?

You hit the nail on the head...whatever BOTH parties are TRULY comfortable with AND have agreed with is OK.

Anything else is NOT OK.

If it doesn't pass the "is this OK in fromt of my spouse?" test, it is INAPPROPRIATE, must be stopped and the spouse must be told of what occurred.

I remember once or twice being approached at our gym by attractive ladies while M'ed...it was nice, don't get me wrong, but I told STBXW about it when I got home.

I didn't want ANYONE telling her "Hey...I saw WNB talking with some woman at the gym". It isn't right

It seems my loyalty and honor were misplaced! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

WNB

I have lots of experience with this sort of thing and it is devastating to a person's self-esteem. My WH is a big flirt. He's a good-looking guy, very approachable, easy-going and talkative. He flirts and talks to all sorts of women. When we go to a party, he immediately splits from me and rarely returns to see how I'm doing. Now, most of the time, I know a lot of people at those parties myself, so it's not really a big deal, but it would feel good to just be acknowledged once in a while.

My WH is not a bad person. He can be very attentive to me bringing me flowes, chocolate, buying clothes for me, jewelry etc. He never forgot an anniversary/birthday and he goes out of his way to make those days special for me.

The flirting bothers me a lot and we have talked about it, but he still does it. After his EA, I tried to explain to him that this behavior led to the EA because he makes OW feel like he's interested in something more with her. I'm waiting for the day that he's going to be bopped in the head because he even flirts with the girlfriends/wives of his friends, but only if they are attractive.

Anyway, back to your question, I do not think that flirting with other people when you are in a committed relationship is appropriate or healthy. It is painful and demeaning to the partner. If you counselor advised your otherwise, then I would suggest to get another counselor.