Hiya Pep!

(Please tell me how to quote someone without having to 'copy and paste' all the time) LOL

To answer one of your questions - "And who sets the mark of the BS's comfort level? The WS? ....."

(I know I am gonna get bagged for this but, here it goes!)

Why can't a WS set the comfort level? Even though it was through THEIR actions that caused the painful situation in the first place, doesn't mean that they too should be made 'uncomfortable' when it comes to reconcilation. Reconciliation should be comfortable for BOTH parties, not just the BS. I think the problem is that even though a WS has done the 'unthinkable', people tend to forget that yes, WE ARE human too.

From what I have heard from friends - sometimes a BS can have high expectations of a WS. However, it's important to note that NOT having another A is NOT a high expectation, but to not have contact with someone of the opposite sex is (in my book) expecting too much. If a WS knows a BS's pain, then it's up to them (the WS) to SHOW the BS that they are serious in recovery of the marriage.

PEP said: "And, it's the "vulnerable" part we worry about when it comes to flirting you understand. The applies to both BS and WS and ~any married person~ who has not been touched by infidelity. It's our ignored vulnerabilities that cause us to fall."

I totally agree with you on this. However, WHAT makes us vulnerable to other people? A spouse not meeting one of our EN's? Why do people fall? Why did "I" fall? Besides being young and a bit naive, it was an EN not being met. When that happens and you mix alcohol and 'being at the wrong place at the wrong time' that was a catastropy waiting to happen.

PEP said: "We are more than 9 years recovered. I wonder why you are not fully recovered after 8 years..... why the long time line? This is a real question .... not at all superficial. There may be a very good explaination why this has been such a difficult journey for you.... I think you are NOT talking about healing your current M .... but about your personal healing, correct?"

And you are correct again, I am not referring to healing my current M, I am talking about healing myself. I don't know if I told you this but my BEXH has already forgiven me, and moved on. How do you get trust back within a marriage once it's lost? The trust will never be 100% again, there will always be that 'doubt' and I don't think I could put anyone through that. Having been the WS has made me set 'boundaries' within MYSELF to help protect firstly, who I am and my current marriage. None of it is 'uncomfortable' for me, it's who I am happy with. The best thing my husband and I do for each other is to let us be 'ourselves.'

I hope this helps!

Pep - you haven't answered my final 2 questions at the end of m post.

" When is it considered that a spouse is asking for 'too much?' And when do you consider yourselves to be 'fully - recovered?'"

I am anxious to know the answer to those questions!

Thanks again for the good (and stimulating) discussion!


Sincerely,
Anne in Australia


WW - 33 (ME)
BEXH - 27
DDAY - sometime 8 years ago
STATUS: Divorced on amicable grounds - still friends
CURRENT: Happily remarried (4 years - going strong!)

When reading the post you want to reply to ... go to the top of that post and click on the link that says "quote" ... the reply box then has the entire post in quotes ... and you can pick and choose which part you want to quote and delete the rest.


Our inability to maintain proper boundaries alongside our personal weaknesses. And sometimes, a character flaw.



I'm a little lost here ... so are we talking about the BS's requirements or what?

If we are talking about things the BS requires for reconciliation ... and when that becomes "too much" I would say ...

anything that is demeaning to the WS''s value as a human being or diminish the WS's integrity



When the affair and all that followed no longer cause me or my darling Mr. Pep pain or humiliation

MelodyLane:

Firstly, I sincerely apologize for offending you. We are having a 'discussion' and it wasn't meant to offend you (or anyone else)I was not trying to twist or 'bastardize' your meaning; I was just trying to understand.

Personal/Professional doesn't matter. (As we ALL know) Professional relationships can (and often do) turn personal. When you said "NO relationships" (whether it be professional or personal) that, to me, meant that. You know what you implied, but that’s not what you wrote. (The word NO, in my book, means NONE). I believe what you should have said was “No PERSONAL relationships”. This is truly a misunderstanding NOT bastardization or twisting of words.

You said: "BH was talking about - not innocent working relationships - but personal relationships with female coworkers to whom the WS confides personal information about his marriage. This is how his affair started and this is how workplace affairs commonly start. That is very inappropriate in a marriage."

Why do you think people do this? Some people do it just to get some ‘advice’ from someone (other then their spouses) and of the opposite sex. I’ve done this myself and have been given some good advice into the man’s ‘way of thinking.’ Some people do this to get someone to ‘see their side’ of things and are looking for a bit of sympathy. Sympathy between a married person and someone else (of the opposite sex) can lead to closeness, BUT it doesn’t always lead to A’s.

IMHO - If a WS is HONEST and sincere in reconciling the marriage, then it should be left up to them to decide what they should or should not do. (as you said “self-imposed”) If a spouse allows himself or herself to get close enough to someone to even contemplate an A, then it’s not the OW/OM fault that they acted upon it. I am a firm believer that it’s not the actions of the OW/OM that would concern me, but how MY spouse responded. And if it lead to an A, and I believed him to be remorseful and sincere, I would still give him the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn’t do it again. This doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t allow him to have any further ‘relationships’ with the opposite sex. Again as you said, a personal choice. A relationship with the opposite sex becomes 'inappropriate' when there are problems (or A's) in a marriage.

I personally know a couple that, after an A, had put such high expectations on the other partner, which IMOP wasn’t necessary. (ie You can’t have coffee with that woman/man… or I don’t want you working directly with that person - change departments, etc) It's these sorts of 'restrictions/boundaries' that I have been referring to.

Some Ws’s say they will do “ANYTHING” to get their spouse’s back. My problem is: at what cost? Because the WS is the “guilty party” doesn’t mean that they should have to sacrifice themselves in order to get their spouses back. If the WS is agreeable to the 'boundaries', that's one thing, but what if they're not? Is there no such thing as a compromise in a marriage? What if the boundaries (which are sincere) a WS put on themselves isn’t ‘good enough’ for the BS? (Or vice versa)

It’s true that what one spouse would consider “ok” doesn’t mean the other should agree to it too. But even if I were a BS, I would not expect anything from my partner that I wouldn’t do myself.


Sincerely,
Anne in Australia

AA
Your posts here reek of indignation and entitlement IMO.

Did your BS set the price of re-entry back into your life too high for you in the past ?

AA, I believe it’s best to keep relationships between female/male colleagues professional, but if they become friends, such a friendship must stay strictly platonic and firm boundaries must be kept in place to ensure that. That involves NO flirting; NO sharing of recreational time alone together, no tea/coffee breaks with the same person all the time, no sharing or discussion of very personal matters or information like marriage problems etc, etc. And if one of the colleagues feels the other person is overstepping ‘boundaries’ or that an inappropriate attraction (emotionally and/or physically) has started to develop, then yes, it will be best to avoid that person and even move to another department if necessay… This may seem very strict to some people, but it is because of a lack of boundaries and ignorance in our society that so many people (even ‘good’ people with high morals) get tempted and/or involved in A’s…especially in the work place. Therefore it’s NEVER a good idea for female/male colleagues to become close or intimate friends because things can SO easily progress into an EA if not carefull...

In her book, “Not Just Friends” Shirley Glass says:

''The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they've crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love,''

... and I believe the above usually happens because of a lack of safe & healthy boundaries… To have a better understanding, please read the link I’ve given in my previous post. It’s an article about emotional infidelity in the workplace and how close friendships between colleagues often leads to trouble.

When I’ve said that opposite sex friendships should involve BOTH spouses, I didn’t mean that the spouses must treat each other like ‘watchdogs’ all the time and not even allow each other with an opposite sex friend alone in a room (or for example, have coffee breaks together now and then). BUT, if the opposite sex friends start to exclude the spouse from the friendship & conversations more and more and start spending more and more time together alone…then something is definitely wrong.

IMO, FWS’s who have 1) integrity; 2) who have learned and grown from their past mistakes & wrong choices and 3) is really sincere in their efforts to affair-proof and recover the M, will 1) realize the importance of these strong/healthy boundaries and 2) take the responsibility to implement those boundaries and keep them in place THEMSELVES (without 'force' from the BS). FWS's who have proper boundaries in place and abide to it enthusiastically and willingly , will help to restore the trust of the BS and gain the trust back… It’s perfectly normal for BS’s to feel insecure and have doubts about their FWS’s just after the betrayal and during early recovery while the wounds of the A is still fresh... Trust must be earned and this don’t happen overnight after an A.

And of course healthy & safe boundaries with the opposite sex is important for the BS as well... It's applicable on both spouses.

Blessings,
Suzet

I would appreciate it if you would use some integrity when cherry picking my quotes and use them in the proper context. You know very well what I wrote. You took the wooden literal meaning of my words - out of their context - in order to bastardize my meaning. And you could only do so by taking my words out of context by removing the rest of the quote. Everyone else knew exactly what I meant, and so did you. So don't waste my time with your disingenuous equivocations.

And the fact that a professional relationship could turn into a personal relationship is completely irrelevent to the point. It doesn't change the fact that one is appropriate and one isn't. [not to mention that it CAN'T unless the person allows it.]


Which is irrelevent to my point. I don't care why people "do this." The point is that there is a difference between an inappropriate personal relationship at work and a professional relationship. One is appropriate and one is not.


And it is up to the BS to decide their own boundaries. A WS cannot decide that. If flirting crosses that boundary, as it should, then that might be a deal breaker. Flirting is profoundly disrespectful to the spouse, not to mention degrading to the person doing it in a professional environment. Folks who flirt in a professional environment are usually the laughing stock at work and are not highly regarded.


Then the BS may decide to forgo the marriage, which is their right. If the WS violates simple boundaries of protection by engaging in destructive and disrespectful behavior, then maybe that person just isn't ready for marriage. Settling for a WS is a hard decision after an affair, and many choose to abandon a marriage with so much baggage and move on and cut their losses. A WS who would have an affair and THEN not respect simple boundaries would not be a desirable option for most folks. It's hard to fall back in love after an affair, it would be impossible under unfavorable conditions.

Spot on Suzet*!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ms Glass' book REALLY showed me the dangers of male/female frienships in the workplace IF/WHEN the frienship crosses that boundary and the sharing of personal information begins OUTSIDE of the marriage...PLATONIC/professional relationships are the key...

Her book should be MANDATORY reading for ALL couples considering marriage...IMVHO

The situation is exacerbated GREATLY in the military when they put men/women AWAY from their spouses for long periods, give them access to booze and they act suprised when affairs run amok!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Rant off...

WNB

It depends...This CAN be true as I have a married female friend that I can ask things of to get that female perspective. I would NEVER ask her anything that I wouldn't ask in front of her husband. There is NO sexual tension between us and that helps a lot. I would NEVER talk to her about ANYTHING of a sexual nature.

All guys and gals aren't like me though...

BUT (BIIIIIIG BUT)...I don't think these types of platonic male/female relationships are the norm.

Being in an affair-tainted marriage AND realizing the statistical probability of that "friendship" NOT being strictly platonic is flirting with disaster.

Add into that if the "friend" is fairly attractive, are you willing to risk your M by NOT putting the "no opposite sex confidante's" boundary in place? Are you willing to have your spouse asking this "friend" for advice relating to your M? Too many predators out there will see this as an opportunity.

I would need that boundary firmly in place...

WNB

Bobpure:

"Your posts here reek of indignation and entitlement IMO."

How so? Because it's from a different 'point of view?'

FYI - my EX H (BS) wanted to reconcile. MY reasons for not reconciling was simply because I realized fairly early into the marriage that it wasn't meant to be. This man was my best friend, but as we all know, marrying your 'best friend' doesn't always mean that they'll make for 'better husbands/wives.' Why should anyone stay married under the false 'pretenses' that you will someday love this person the way they should be loved? (If it is not in your heart to do so)

MelodyLane:

"I would appreciate it if you would use some integrity when cherry picking my quotes and use them in the proper context. You know very well what I wrote. You took the wooden literal meaning of my words - out of their context - in order to bastardize my meaning. And you could only do so by taking my words out of context by removing the rest of the quote. Everyone else knew exactly what I meant, and so did you. So don't waste my time with your disingenuous equivocations."

Cherry picking? Please know that there will be others (newbies) surfing these boards, so to prevent this 'cherry picking' from happening again, why don't you make sure your 'context' alittle more clear before posting? There will be people who will take you literally. Or is everyone else (who has not been following your posts since day 1) supposed to just know 'what you are talking about'? In the future, instead of 'attacking' someone who 'misunderstands' one of your meanings, all you have to do is correct them, it REALLY is as simple as that. And it is the 'adult' way of doing things. You said that everyone else knew exactly what you meant, well I obviously did NOT know 'exactly what you meant' does that mean that I am bastardizing or 'twisting' to suit my own needs? You don't even know me to make THAT sort of comment!

Bottom line here is that if something is left open to misinterpretation, then you can bet that, sooner or later, it will be. This is all part of posting.

I said: "Why do you think people do this? Some people do it just to get some ‘advice’ from someone (other then their spouses) and of the opposite sex."

You said: "Which is irrelevent to my point. I don't care why people "do this." The point is that there is a difference between an inappropriate personal relationship at work and a professional relationship. One is appropriate and one is not."

Exactly, which is irrelevent to YOUR point. YOU may not care why other people 'do this' but I am SURE there are others out there who will! Oh but since it doesn't apply to you, you rebuke it (pretty selfish in my book).

We are ALL (BS and WS alike) are on these boards to heal and to find a better UNDERSTANDING. I know I didn't come here to be 'flamed' or to 'flame' others because this IS such a sensitive issue. I am MORE human than that.

As for the rest of your post - I actually felt myself smiling in my heart. You seem like a really nice person MelodyLane. If you ever got a chance to know me, you would see that I am a good person too with good intentions, as I am sure are the rest of the posters here.

Sorry for the bad start....


Sincerely,
Anne in Australia


WS: 33 (ME)
BEXH: 27
DDAY: sometime 8 years ago
STATUS: Divorced on amicable grounds - still friends
CURRENT: Happily remarried (4 years)

How so? Because it's from a different 'point of view?'

Because successfully recovering FWS typically take responsibility for their affairs, recognise their betrayal and the need to protect themselves from their weaknesses in future and protect their BS from further harm.

That you seem to advocate continued WS flirting and suggest that the BS is unreasonable in suggesting that this evident weakness and trigger should be accommodated by the BS reeks of entitlement and justification IMO.

I welcome other views, but I see your attitude typically in unrepentant WS.

I cannot think of a succesful recovery on here where the WS has not protected their weakness in handling other sex relationships.

BTW

Why should anyone stay married under the false 'pretenses' that you will someday love this person the way they should be loved? (If it is not in your heart to do so)


My FWS , Squid, told me almost those exact same words just under a year ago at the height of her affair.

She doesn't agree with that now.

IMO, flirting is wrong, period.

b0b pure*

I am not advocating "flirting" by NO means, what makes you think I am? Because I am asking questions and posing a difference of opinon?

As a WS myself - I have been totally forgiven by my EX H, it's ME, however, that has not forgiven ME. This was some 8 years ago and continues to this day. However, because of this 'repenting' I have done/still doing, it has definitely helped put things into perspective IRT my current marriage. The wounds I created, however, still run deep.

Every relationship is different and unique. I KNEW I would not and COULD not love my EX H the way he deserved. It was NOT in my heart and therefore, to act upon anything other then to 'set him free' would've been a lie in my eyes. I was HUMAN enough to admit that it was over and not pretend just for the sake of emotions. What kind of woman would that make me had I done so?

I am ALL for a WS putting 'boundaries' on THEMSELVES. This is NOT in no way advocating a harmful environment. "Self-imposed" (as MelodyLane so put it so well!) I think what WS's need is NOT to 'protect their weaknesses' but to actually SEE themselves for who they truly are.

A WS has as many questions as a BS has. I am just trying to understand the 'cause and effect' theory, the WHOLE story behind A's. I just get the impression (this is ONLY my impression) that some people don't think a WS has a RIGHT to their own feelings. Compromising is, and has always been, the key.

SO do you think I am 'unrepentant'? - after 8 years (and still continuing) of trying to 'recover' from my actions?


Sincerely,
Anne in Australia


WS: 33 (ME)
BEXH: 27
STATUS: Divorced on amicable grounds - still friends
ME: Still in 'recovery'
CURRENT: Happily remarried (4 years and going strong)

AmAussie said:


Trust me on this ... it is BOTH! You're going to have to take my work on this. Discovery of marital betrayal is a very emotional experience, and your "logic" is going to go out the window. Everyone who was even peripherally involved is suspect. Besides, it is not uncommon for the OP to be a former friend of the family ... this sort of double betrayal is very much a problem.


That is a mistake. WS needs to earn back the benifit of the doubt for a second chance.

It is obvious that this is a theory you have .... believe me ... if you are ever in the unfortunate position of being the BS ... and you have come to the realization that your WS was more than able to lie straight to your face and put you and yours in harms way ... there is a period of time where just about everything that comes from the WS's mouth must be taken with a boulder of salt.

If you never thought your WS was capable of cheating before, and you found out that they are indeed capable of cheating ... it is foolhearty to assume he/she is not capable again ... at least for a time.

Pepperband:

(Still working on trying to use the 'quote' appropriately, but haven't quite got the hang of it!)

Well that has put some things into perspective for me. I guess it is hard when you are not the BS, but I honestly keep trying to put myself in their shoes and because of who I am today, I can only imagine what I would do at that moment.

Maybe it's because of the fact that I AM a WS and know what it has tought me about myself (what I will/will not do) makes me feel I would/can be so 'agreeable' in such circumstances. As they say "The grass is always greener..."

Whilst I realise we are all human beings and (if in agreement with the BS) can be allowed one mistake (if the core of the marriage is still intacted) I think over time I would be able to forgive, but I could never forget. And because I couldn't forget would be a real issue for me.

Sometime after my A, I used to have the mentality that "If what I have done had EVER happened to me, I would file for divorce IMMEDIATELY" and I guess in a sense this is where it still is. But since I am in a good solid marriage with someone else, and know who this man to be, it's harder to think that I could not (or would not) forgive him. My current maritial status (happily remarried) is where my thoughts and opinions come from. It may be a bit narrow-minded, but I still would like to think that I am being totally honest, especially to myself.

Thanks again for your comments Pepperband, it's always been interesting (and a pleasure) to hear your side of things.


Sincerely,

Anne in Australia


WS: 33 (ME)
BEXH: 27
STATUS: Divorced on amicable grounds - still friends
ME: Still in 'recovery'
CURRENT: Happily remarried (4 years and going strong)

AmAussie

Your affair in your 1st marriage was an "exit affair" ... in case you did not know.

edited for clarity!!!!

Pepperband:

"Exit Affair?" Please do explain cause I have never heard of this term.

Do you mean to say that I HAD an affair to get OUT of the marriage? Because you would be totally wrong! That's still no reason to have one.

Believe it or not, I had tried to make the marriage work, but lost interest when my EX H did not reciprocate, which just made matters worse because of the fact that I had been having 'doubts' about the longitivity of it.

I came to the realization that it wasn't 'meant to be' after the affair. So any life that could have been breathed back into it, just did not exsist for me.



Sincerely,

Anne in Australia

Your X offered recovery ... you refused.

An exit affair is one that gives the unhappy WS the energy to finally leave the marriage.

The exit WS is the one to file for a D.

The exit-A WS does not "want her cake and eat it too" by trying to keep one foot in the M and the other foot in the A. Also known as "fence-sitters".

The exit-A WS often behaves friendlier and has more sympathy toward the BS than other types of As.

Why can't a WS set the comfort level? Even though it was through THEIR actions that caused the painful situation in the first place, doesn't mean that they too should be made 'uncomfortable' when it comes to reconcilation. Reconciliation should be comfortable for BOTH parties, not just the BS. I think the problem is that even though a WS has done the 'unthinkable', people tend to forget that yes, WE ARE human too.


The idea isn;t to make teh WS uncomfortable as a punishment AA.

Its just that many or most BS need to discuss and process things that will make the WS feel very uncomfortable.

Also teh BS will need to be made to feel safe by the WS, to be convinced that it is worth the huge investment of trust and love requird to try to recover their marriage.

If it makes a BS uncomfortable for a FWS to flirt with or meet privately with people of the opposite sex, then the FWS should try to comply, and do so transparently so as to protect their BS from further hurt and ALSO to protect themselves from an apparrent weakness in this area.

Dr. Harley says most affairs happene because people fail to protect their weaknesses. In teh case of my own dear Squid, her flirting and independent behaviour met their match in OM who flirted right back until a very entanged affair was built.

I asked that Squid does not flirt and that shebe transparent in her interactions with men. She hated this ( like she also hated transparency, honesty and accountability)
but I genuinely needed at LEAST that in order to feel my investment in her might be warranted.

I didn't FORCE her to do these things. They are personal boundaries of mine that we POJAed.

You said:

Putting restrictions/limitations on spouses is NOT the answer. Letting them 'go' (even after an A) will only prove to you (once and for all) whether or not they are sincere. If you are going to try to make a marriage work after an A, you should at least give them room to move (or to hang themselves, whichever they decide to do).

OM inmy situation told me exactly that. " if you lov something let it go, if it doesn't come back it was never yours".

What he wanted me to do was NOTHING as you suggest. Let him bang my Squid while I cowered.

What I did instead was expose, plan A'ed, set personal boundaries of NC, protection from hurt, transparency and active work on recovery and ran with it.

Note none of these are mandated on Squid. She could choose to ignore all of them, and I would then choose whether I wanted to remain married to someone who would not respect my perfectly reasnable personal boundaries.

You seem to expect a BS whose faith in their spouse has been utterly shattered to once again trust them not to do anything that hurts the BS. Thats true in part but for it to work these need to be boundaries.

And stoppng flirting as a PARTICULAR boundary I think is just a sign of respect to the BS.

In summary, I think you would not vote for recovery restrictions being put in place for you in the same way that Turkey's don't vote for Christmas.

I think this attitude betrays a lack of understanding of teh dynamics of affairs.

Wow. This is interesting for me. I have been wondering if my WS's affair is an exit affair and his total lack of compassion was his way of getting me to be the bad guy to file for D. WH is a royal fence-sitter a.k. Prince Charming and I doubt he would ever file for divorce.


Boy, is that a relief! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

b0b pure*

Firstly, I would like to say that I am sorry if I have seemed a bit 'biased' or 'self-centered' in my posts, but please know that was NOT my intentions at all. I am like everyone else, trying to find a 'better understanding' of these important and very serious type of situations we all know as A's.

I feel that people who can at least TRY to make a marriage work after an A are somewhat better people then I am. To forgive someone is one thing, but to be able to forget it enough to continue on just seems a bit much for me, so I suppose you are right, if the shoe was on the other foot (if I were a BS) then I would have to answer honestly that NO, I would not try to seek recovery. My personal 'limitations' wouldn't allow me to do that. And since this is my own personal choice, to have allowed my EX H to have done the same (try and recover our marriage) would've been a bit hypocritical in my book. "I would not and could not ask my spouse to do something that I would not be willing to do." (Thanks for helping me clear that up in my mind)

I have been in past relationships where there was flirting, and if I am honest with myself, I also know that it too, bothered me. I guess what I am doing now (by not having any close friendships outside my current marriage) IS, in a sense, protecting myself and my marriage. It's where both me and my spouse are comfortable and can feel free and secure. This is how I can say that I totally trust my husband (and myself) today. However, I have read that this is usually the FIRST mistake a person can make in a marriage.

I also agree too, that if boundaries are in place AND comfortable by both parties (as I obviously have boundaries in my marriage) then this CAN make for a better situation.

Thank you for putting some insight back into my 'way of thinking'.


Sincerely,

Anne in Australia


WS: 33 (ME)
BEXH: 27
STATUS: Divorced on amicable grounds - still friends
ME: Still in recovery
CURRENT: Happily remarried (4 years and going strong)