Hi Suzet !

So as not to threadjack Whispers great thread I thought I'd call it out here.

Your post made me sad - because I assessed the changes made to ME as a person by Squids affair. And I am not a better person.

I am a better husband and father but such are practial things. My faith is reawakened which is also good.

But as a PERSON I am sadder, less ambitious, less trusting, less enthusiastic, and less tolerant of friends petty miseries.

I am more cynical, more realistic, more worldly.

We're doing REALLY WELL in recovery and I am happy considering the circumstances but the best I can say is that I am coping with adversity NOT 'improving'.

I know some people are 'cockeyed optimists' as they sang in South Pacific and can make soup from sh*t, but that really isn't me.

Such "pollyanna" reasoning has never been a part of my make up. I have been a realist not a pessimist though. now I think I am more pessimistic by nature.


Is this a personal attitude thing, Suzet or do you think a WS really DOES have more opportunity to improve and grow from an affair than a BS ?

Bob, what I have said in my post to you is from what I have personally experienced and how I view myself as a FWW after my inappropriate involvement. I can also see the changes in some FWS’s (like Whisper) and how they have grown and matured through this whole process. I have not said what I said because I think a FWS have more opportunity to improve or grow after an A than a BS or whatever. I have only spoken from my personal experience and what I have learned as a FWW in my specific and individual circumstances.

Do I think a WS have more opportunity to improve and grow from an affair than a BS? I can’t answer that question Bob and I honestly don’t know… Each person is different and I can’t speak for anyone else, except if I can ‘see’ positive changes in a person (like Whisper or anyone else).

Bob, what I have gone through during and after my inappropriate involvement was extremely difficult & painful and not something I EVER want to go through again. My growth haven’t happen without a lot of pain involved and although I still have scares, I do feel like a better and ‘wiser’ person today and I have matured in many ways… I’m extremely sensitized to A’s now and I know my growth and changes wouldn’t have happened without the painful lessons I have learned from my betrayal.

I wouldn’t describe myself as a ‘optimistic person’ at all. My inherent personality is strongly ‘melancholic’, emotional etc. Because of my tendency to become easily depressed, anxious and worried I have learned and forced myself throughout the years (and especially after my betrayal) to focus on the good & positive things in life and (even during the ‘bad’ experiences).

I’m sorry if my post made you sad Bob. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I’m aware that A’s are extremely painful to all parties involved, especially to BS’s. I can’t even begin to imagine the hurt & pain of a BS…especially if the FWS was involved in a intense EA/PA like your W. To make this clearer to you Bob, let me turn your words around and make it applicable on how I personally feel about this:

[color:"blue"]I would rather have endured what I have endured as a FWS than go through what a hurt BS goes through after an affair.[/b] [/color]

That's honestly how I feel and I have much respect & admiration for the BS's like you who 'hold on' to their FWS's and give them another chance... If I were a BS, I don't think I would have the same strength, endurance etc.

I hope this post could help to clear up some things for you. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

Something I want to add:

I think you are much stronger than you think Bob. Please don’t doubt yourself. I read your posts and I think you are a better & improved person (although you don't feel that way now). Don’t just focus on feelings Bob. Remember, you are still busy to heal and scars don't go away overnight... Remember the thread I’ve send: ”Transformed by Trouble”? I think that thread is very much applicable on you Bob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey Suzet !

Yoru post was GREAT ! Its good to self-review even if it changes our mood down a bit ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

You really made me think - I wonder if WS really can grow from infidelity and BS don't so readily.

I wonder if this is because affairs are sources of pleasure to a WS albeit temporairily to a FWS but to a BS are nothing but devastating evil and pain ?

Dunno. need to think.

Suzet, Oh I'm stronger no doubt. But as a person, my personality is not improved. I don't like hard-nosed, cynical people. I don't like my new 'soft, emotional' side that I have.

But I am proud of almost all of my actions this past year, so I guess I need to accept th erough with the smooth ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Bob, please note I’ve sent you another post a minute before you’ve sent your response (just in case you have missed it)! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I think you are up to something here Bob and it make much sense. However, as a FWS I can assure you that I also view my past betrayal as evil and devastating. At the time it was a source of pleasure to me, BUT I experienced an increasing anxiety, depression and discomfort as my friendship become more and more inappropriate and escalated towards an EA.

Why not??? I think this is a GREAT characteristic for a man and there is nothing wrong with that! You are just more in touch with your 'feminine' side now and that's GOOD! I think most women LOVE that and PREFER a man to be like that... You know - a strong man who can also show his sensitive side if needed! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Suzet, I know how bad repentant FWS feel about their A's Suzet, I hold folks like you good hearted FWS in great esteem for recognising formerly pleasurable things as evil. I truly do.

But I think my point is valid that an affair is INTENSELY pleasurable for a while to FWS, while it is never anything but a virulant aggressive cancer to a BS.

I need to think more on this.

I do not liek my emotional side. I am and always have been a man;s man. I never cried at movies, and always backed up my threats.

I do not respect the new side of me that is overly-reasonable, emotional.

Interesting timing. I'm a few days from the three-year anniversary of d-day, and I'm not in a good place. When I tld H of my feelings he was surprised. "Can't you look at it as the third anniversary of a new beginning?" he said. For him, a new and better life started three years ago. For me, I got dropped into a horror movie and I'm still waiting for the credits to roll and the lights to go up...

I liked the person I was three years ago. She was warm, giving, enthusiastic and loving. This person that I see in the mirror now is harder, colder, gives only with great caution and calculation, and has hardened her heart to others. I respect her but I don't like her much. I miss the me-that-was.

Why has this been a postive experience for H, and such a negative experience for me? I believe it's to do with trust. Whatever H has gone through, he has not had his trust abused. Like most BS's I have had my trust wrecked - trust in others, trust in my own judgement.

The abuse of trust is a kind of soul death. It takes something from you that can never be replaced.

Do WS's realise this?


I gave my H my whole heart, I poured everything I was and had to give into the marriage. H acknowledges and accepts that. His infidelity was 'an extra'; something he could get away with. He could get away with it because he abused the priceless gift he was given - the gift of my trust. He couldn't handle it; he didn't see it as something fragile and sacred but as the keys to the bank vault...'Woopeee! Look what I can get away with!!"

He has never been able to understand why I can't give him back the same trust. He's learned a huge amount, he's seen the consequences of his behaviour, he's a different man. So why can't we just start again, on the same trust basis?

I see this in so many WS's. They can't see why the gift can't simply be given again. They don't seem to realise that it's like giving a kidney. You can't give that kidney again. They don't regenerate.

And the donor is now taking damn good care of the one that's left.

TogetherAlone

I have to agree with TA and BobPure, my H's affair killed something inside of me. It was a traumatic shock that I would put in the same category as the death of my beloved son. There was nothing good about the affair.
There was nothing good about the untimely death of my boy.

On the other hand, my H has grown and changed dramatically as a result of the affair. He is simply not the same person he was before this happened. I think his affair was the culmination of a long term character deficiency. It's manifestation impelled him to address and change that deficiency. Because of that, he is a better man. He learned that its one thing to have morals, but another to live by them.

i'm just going to throw out my thought...

so many say, a recovered FWS is a different person, i'll quote melodylane... "He is simply not the same person he was before this happened. I think his affair was the culmination of a long term character deficiency. It's manifestation impelled him to address and change that deficiency. Because of that, he is a better man. He learned that its one thing to have morals, but another to live by them."

so to those that say, i cannot regive trust... i respectfully ask: why can't trust be given to this "new" person as opposed to re-given to the "old" person??

All, this has obviously hit a nerve.

Understand that I am not depressed, nor unhappy nor sorry for myself, an I have high hopes for the future and we;re doing GREAT for a year into recovery ! But like other posters I have to recognise that NOTHING good came out of this for me personally.

Most of my systems were smashed in that attack. I am learning to rewire around teh broken systems but I will alway shave a broken core. I upset FL-T2M the other day saying this, but its true.

Everything but life support was smashed in the attack.

Anything else is a bonus ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

FL - because it's not the quality of the recipient that't the blocking factor - it's the loss of the organ that generated trust in the first place. You can't give what you haven't got.

I think this is what many WS's fail to grasp.

This part of your last post, Bob, made me really sad. Instead of the disrespect you feel for this side of you, you should thank the Lord that you have finally grabbed hold of it and are letting it shine.

It is a sad state of affairs that men still think that being a MAn's man, means showing no emotion. This is cavemen talk....and I do not know many women who want that in a mate. A REAL man in my eyes, is strong, helpful, understanding and shows emotion, and knows that he needs to be overly-reasonable at times. I bet Squid likes the new emotional/overly reasonable Bob better. I know that I have waited a long time for my H to be like that and he was fairly emotional before.

As to the becoming a new person question...I too have changed. My personality has become more cynical...and I can look at weddings or listen to love songs without being cynical. I was always been a pessimist, and my H's affair confirmed some of my worst pessimistic thoughts...so now I figure all I have is looking UP...so, I have moved more to that realist category.

It has changed other parts of my personality, but those are "personal" areas <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

True

just so ya know... hitting nerves is not a bad thing. don't worry Bob, i am not anywhere nears tears right now!!! i was having a bad day on the day "you upset me"

[and now i get on my soapbox.... Bob YOU cannot upset me, nor can you MAKE me happy. nor can anyone else. yes, people have impact on each other but in the end each individual owns the final outcome. (p.s. this is something i have always kinda believed but only now do i fully believe AND live) ok, stepping down now]

unfortunately i still have a hard time getting this and maybe i always will. i'm not saying it should be viewed as a pleasant experience, but i still don't get why it cannot be viewed as a terrible thing that can result in good in the end.

God can and has used terrible things for His glory. With Him old things can be made new.

i am not wanting to sound disrespectful, and bob, i know we went round and round with this last week, but i continue to want to say...why can't that last paragraph give comfort and healing? healing to the point of not accepting the dead core as something that CANNOT be re-vived.

maybe it is just wishful thinking on me to want to believe that total healing can include getting rid of all dead cores. maybe i need to believe it. i would so love to hear what RIF would say about it. maybe i am being foolish. and if i am, it would be good for me to open my eyes, so please lets not avoid this conversation!!!

i too lost a child, a girl, born between the two children we have. a part of me definitely died with her and it took many many years to heal.

maybe i really need to try to relate. can i honestly say that no "dead core" remains because of that experience? i certainly still have some sadness that occurs. maybe it is the word "core" that bothers me. i am not dead in my core, although i felt that way when it first happened and for many years afterwards. i had such a sadness in the heart of me, my core as you would put it, but i eventually learned to live with it. that sadness is not in the CORE of me anymore, but i have to admit, some sadness certainly remains.

events like that are so dramatically life changing. lets say that child survived, we would not have the son we have now. maybe we would of had a third child and maybe he would of been a boy, but he would not be the exact same child. a universe in which our daughter survived would of been uniquely different. do i discount the sadness of her death. ABSOLUTELY NOT. but i also don't discount the amazing blessing of the son i have today.

i'm just thinking outloud here folks. i hope none of the above offends anyone.

Bob - I don't believe this is the reason. For me personally it was watching the horrible pain I caused everyone I love. That was ENOUGH for me to change who I am right down to the core. I didn't want my children learning my poor coping skills, I never wanted to cause Sprint the pain I caused him, As much as he was guilty pre-A of the marriage flaws, so was I, and yet I was the one who bailed and destroyed him...so I wanted to change so that I would never be that person again.

And I am sure you guys have seen my journey - I have changed ALOT...and am still a work in progress and probably will always be. Continually bettering myself has new discoveries everyday and new work everyday...but after 8 months it's become a way of life for me - self chanllenging, self analysis - all combined with prayer and getting God's opinion. I am so not who I used to be, yet I am...a better version of me, but still so lowly...never to be perfect, yet satisfied with where my journey is taking me.

i appreciate how you put that "not the quality of the recipient that's the blocking factor" that is very kind.

but you are right, I personally cannot grasp this right now.

and i'm not even sure if it is I that needs to grasp that thought or if recovering BSs need to try to grasp that what you are saying has to be the final word. With God all things are possible. a new organ can be grown. look at Lance Armstrong!!! anything is possible!!!

ML wrote this and I agree. However, we can choose take away something positive from a horrible situation. I saw a news segment this morning about parents whose child drowned in a swimming pool accident. They are using this horrible tragedy to teach others pool safety so this doesn't happen to them. They are choosing to make something positive out of a tragedy. Many of us who have gone through this devistation are doing just that. Personally, I have used this opportunity to try to become a better person, wife and mother, to reconnect with God, family and friends. I choose to take away something positive from this whole situation. It's a personal choice, I could choose to see only the negative, the heart ache, the pain and betrayal, but what good would that do. I choose to make lemonade out of my lemon of a life!

Like it or not, none of us are in the same M with the same trust"

But to heal I think that FL hits the nail on the head.

I could echo the BS's statements here (and elsewhere on the board) to a T. In my darkest moments if I look at it with old eyes I could say that I will never trust my H in the same way that 'we' shall always be 'less'.

But then I have to look at who he is now - just as this thread started....my H is right now in the present day a great man. He is so much more than he was; he has grown in ways that delight me, that fill our future with so much promise. Even writing about a future was hard for me for a very long time.

I think all of us (and I mean all) mourn the death of the old; I know I did, and still do to some extent if I allow myself to dwell on the past (affair). But what does that leave me?

Events in our lives always change us in some way. Sometimes small, sometimes large. It is what we do with the events, with the interpretations that define us. So I ask myself what has H done in this 'new' M and in his everyday life that defines him...who is he now in the present.

Now, I'm 3 years out so maybe I am seeing things from a different perspective....

With respect,
AG

FL

WHAT good has come out of your infidelity for your BH. ?