“””I still think you guys are funny...”””

Well, I’m glad that we can be a source of entertainment for you.

”””Give it a couple of days. If he doesn't call her, have her call him and explain how he hurt her feelings by not calling her.”””

Keeping in mind what has already transpired. If she does that, he’s gonna talk a little talk and hit her up for the next booty call. If you look at the situation it’s fairly obvious that this dog ain’t gonna hunt. Hopefully, she learned a lesson here.

“””As much as women would like us to, men can't read women's minds.”””

Ohhhhhhhhhhh come on BigGuy, are you serious? They slept together and then she had to travel. Are you seriously telling me that, if you had sex with a woman that there was a future with on Saturday and knew she was traveling on Sunday that you would call her that evening or for that matter return her call?

“””Communication is key, IMVHO.”””

And the BOY in our scenario has already lost the key. Even if the group is wrong and he didn’t play her, he obviously is seriously lacking in any type of relationship skills. I guess she could try to train him but personally I’d rather train a poodle while finding a worthy mate.

I personally think it's rude that he didn't call her that day. I wouldn't call him...let him call her if he's interested. I would be more careful next time also. I'm not very trusting of people anymore so I may be a bit harsh myself. God...I dread all this dating stuff.

Check and LH -

Right on the money! Exactly what I was getting at.

No one wants to have to learn this lesson the hard way.

I was even being generous in saying to give him a few days - I really think a call to check that she got in ok, had a good time, etc. would have been in order ASAP.

I mean, yes, sometimes (often?) women do tend to expect men to understand something on their own when they should be talking about it. But that mostly comes later on, when a full-fledged relationship is in place.

To use an overworn but true analogy, men are hunters. They chase until they have what they want. It's only after they got what they wanted that they tend to get more complacent. In the case being discussed here, the relationship is far from being established yet. If a relationship is what he wants, he'll still be doing the chasing. If one night of sex was all he wanted, the chase is now over.

This one to me is so basic. Still, I might have to read "He's Just Not That into You." So far I haven't been convinced there would be that much in it that my mom and dad hadn't taught me..... don't parents teach this kind of stuff anymore? I got the whole "let the boy call first, don't chase him, don't keep calling him if he never calls you back, etc." talk well before I was even allowed to date.

First, I want to say that I appreciate you all not beating me up just because I have a differing opinion. (and for a little baiting)

Is there a good chance that he's playing her? Yeah, there is. If so, then I'm sorry. I've been played before and it sucks.

I don't know, maybe I am new school. If she calls me I don't take it as a sign she's desperate. I figure if the she wants to talk to me, she'll call me. If I want to talk to her, I'll call her.

Should SF change the equation? Not really, in my book. In my experience, SF is something she wants as much as me. It's a mutual experience. She doesn't "give" me anything more than what I "give" her. Is SF a higher priority for me than her? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I don't "owe" her anything more for meeting this particular EN any more than she "owes" me when I meet her other EN's, IMHO.

That being said, do I understand that it is a different experience for women, emotionally speaking? That her EN's change? Yes, I do. And being the sensitive boor that I am, I try to keep that in mind and meet the increased need for appreciation, validation, and respect.

If the guy isn't meeting her EN's (irregardless if he's a player) then she can either tell him as much, or move on. I just think it's more constructive to tell him... but I'm repeating myself.

Beat you up Big Guy. We can't; you're The Big Guy and we might get a whoopin'! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I understand an appreciate your notion of reciprocal communication efforts. It must be give and take. But the fact still remains that she did call him to let him know that she'd arrived home safely and asked him to call her later. He ignored her for days and then sent her a TM telling her to call him. There isn't a chance he's playing her; I gaurantee he is. I work with a player and he uses this exact same technique. The lady will call, maybe even be upset, but he'll smooth that over with one of him many stories and end it with - you guessed it - a date for another booty call. When he's finished with her, she won't be able to reach him anymore.

TBG, let me give you a caution: you should learn very quickly and accept that sex is very different for women than it is for us. It really does change the equation for women unless there is a standing agreement that the relationship is only about casual sex. Even then it can still change the equation. There's no way to get around female psychology on this. There are valid, even biological reasons for women to have different needs in regard to sex than we men have. We just have to accept and respect this, or limit our SF to prostitutes.

but he just spent the weekend making love to this woman.
Gotta differ with you here.
He just spent the weekend "doing" this woman.
He wasn't "making love" to her.

She gave him a very, very special gift
Not very special if all it took was a few weeks of dating and she didn't KNOW he was serious about her.

Great discussion - thanks everyone - I have passed on your thoughts/advice. This does make me dread dating again, and I'm telling myself to just be wise and accept that no matter what I do I may get hurt like my friend.

By the way, I wanted to clarify some facts as I understand them: - they've dating for about 2 months and spent other weekends together, but no SF, and things seemed mutually intense, but still new
-she left him a message saying she was home safe and said SHE would call him later (she apparently didn't mean to say this, but just came out in the message)
- he did not call, but sent a text reply saying to call him the next day
-based on the wise advice from this board, she did not call him or text him the next day
- result? he has called and sent text messages to her trying to get in touch with her

- now, is he still playing her? maybe, probably? (the image that comes to my mind is a fisherman who thinks he might be losing his catch and has to work a little harder to reel it in, but still doesn't mean he isn't playing)

- my advice to her was: call him if she wants to, but let the relationship cool a bit and see how he reacts - he either wants to work towards developing something or he doesn't - personally, I don't think this has good long-term potential

p.s. as a woman, I would be VERY hurt if a guy didn't call me after the weekend they had - SF is a big deal to me and very personal - that's just me

While I can definitely agree with those saying "dump the jerk", I do want to give another perspective to this, to make sure that the lady does not throw out the baby with the bathwater:


This does not seem like a guy looking only to score - two months is way too much time to invest for someone who is nothing but a player. It sounds like they have spent a lot of time together already, and I would not want her to dump the guy over what may be a misunderstanding.


[color:"red"] OK, hold everything! [/color] Let's read this a little slower - she called him, and said that SHE will call HIM again later - and he replied to her and told her when to call. Now, y'all can call him selfish and immature, but what if I put a different spin on this? What if he heard what she told him ("I'll call YOU later"), and decided to be a gentleman and (gasp) honor her wishes? For all he knew, she may have been very busy, or whatever, which is why SHE said that SHE will call HIM? And then he gave her the courtesy of telling her when a good time to call him might be? I am not saying that this is how things went in his mind, but if they did, I wouldn't consider that thought process to be out of line, immature, or anything else other than respectful. And now he may be sitting there wondering what kind of a player this lady must be that she never did call as promised.


Like I said, that may have been a mistake, as she broke her word.


Fair enough - and now she is being the gamer by not taking his calls.


Maybe, maybe not.


Good advice, I think it is the right thing to do instead of playing games.


I would normally agree, except if you told the guy that YOU will call him, which can easily be interpreted as "don't call me, I'll call you".


It's not just you, it's most of us. The issue here is not SF, it is whether he misunderstood her intentions when she said that she will call him. I would suggest that if she has two months invested with the guy, that she pick up the phone and talk to him, instead of looking at the phone and wondering why it doesn't ring, or not picking it up when it does.

I guess I am agreeing with TBG here - we are way past high school, let's not play high school games - bring the issue up, and see what happens.

FWIW, I had a very similar thing happen to me - I met a great lady, we had several dates, started getting pretty "involved", and then she went on a week-long trip, saying "I'll call you". So, I waited, and she never called. I went from wondering to worrying to getting pi$$ed - until about a week later I called her myself. We chatted, never mentioned the weird "silence", and all was well again. That was 9 months ago, and we are still "dating". Sometimes we make mountains out of molehills.

AGG

I agree, very bad form.

Getting hurt is a part of life. Getting hurt means you're alive. Only dead people don't get hurt, and believe me cemetaries aren't the only place where 'dead' people reside. (from someone who has taken a very long break)

Pain is inevitable.

But the question is, what do you do about it when it happens?

Do you sit around and wallow in pain? Do you suffer in silence? Do you just bail?

Or...

Do you tell the person, 'Hey, that hurts, don't do it again if you want me to stick around'...

You can't control what someone else does, you can only control what you do.

It is a healthy thing to tell someone to stop hurting you. And if they don't, it's very healthy to leave. But, you should give them the option to stop hurting you before you do. Otherwise you may miss out on the fullness they bring into your life.

You pretty much nailed it right there, TBG.

This is the precise reason Butterscotch's friend should kick this guy to the curb, he is not [color:"red"] equally[/color] respectful of her feelings. AKA, they don't share the same values.

JMVHO of course. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Jo

I agree with AGoodGuy about:


As many guys are LITERAL - thinkers!!!! clearly she said she would call him.

However I also agree that he should've responded favorably soon after (screw the phone call - how about some flowers, a nice card and/or chocolate <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

FR <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I really have been dating the wrong men <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> who knew there were real gentlemen out there....lol

I'm anxious to hear an update on this one...hopefully everything has smoothed over

Thanks everyone. Here's an update regarding my friend and one regarding me...

My friend: Has spoken with the guy, but is backing off and seeing whether he puts in sufficient effort. If he asks her out again, then she will agree & see how it goes, but no SF, and will bring up the issue politely by saying something like: "enjoyed spending time with you over the weekend, but on Sunday you were distant and I'm not sure how to interpret that" (and then just see what he says, and if necessary, either decide the relationship isn't worth it or xpress her need for more attention/communication/etc). I think it's shaky.

Me: My STBXH (he was WS) wants us to get together this weekend. He has been calling non-stop, sometimes angry, but mostly sad & emotional, saying he doesn't want the Dv to go through (it's over in about 1.5 weeks) and wants us to spend time together this weekend to see if we can salvage our M. I'm VERY confused - I love him and I worked SO, SO, SO hard to make the M a success, and I did the MB Plan, but I'm just not sure he will ever treat me well. He still does a lot of blame shifting and re-writing history. Plus, I can never be 100% sure there is NC given access to work phones, etc, and I think he has a sense of entitlement and lack of respect for women given his relationship with his mother. What should I do? I feel so vulnerable and yet I still love him. I also feel like I'll never fall in love again, or at least not until it's too late to have a family.

Wise move on your friend's part.

So, this change of heart by your H comes out of the blue? Is he still involved with his OW? Certainly, if you want to salvage the marriage, the petition for divorce may be withdrawn at any time. May I suggest to you that the time you spend together this weekend be in neurtral, somewhat public place, where the two of you can sort some things out. What should NOT come out of this is any agreement for him to move back home. It should go without saying that there must be NO SEX. If the two of you decide to cancel the Dv and go for reconciliation, you have to get into marital therapy immediately, start working on you issues, with a goal of an eventual reconciliation with him returning home. You kind of have to start from scratch. As long as you are very confused, you can't make any good decisions about this. The absolute first step is that he end it with the OW and subject himself to complete scrutiny so that you may know for certain that there is NC. He simply must accept this demand. If he doesn't, there's nothing else for the two of you to talk about and you allow the Dv to go forward.

Who called whom though? Just curious.

O

Check - well, to some extent it is out of the blue... we've had false recoveries, and I pretty much gave up and went to Plan B (yet again), so I'm still not too hopeful, but it's hard not to get bruised each time. He says that the A is over and has been for a while, but C continued off & on - we'll see. He knows my rules about NC and recently changed his phone #'s to end her calls. She is a bit of a stalker.

October - with regard to me, my H called first (actually, several times)... with regard to my friend, she waited for him to call and then returned his call a day later after he called & texted; she is now going to wait for him to call again...we'll see...

Side note: part of me longs to fall in love with someone new who hasn't treated me badly and I get excited about the idea of using MB to create a great relationship from scratch as opposed to healing a broken one, but that being said, I know it's hard to find someone that you have chemistry with and I don't want to regret this possible "last chance" opportunity to save our M ... thoughts?

Butterscotch, I'm old school and I don't just believe my wedding vows were empty words, not just so much ceremony. I married for life and when I said "until death us do part," by golly I meant it. It's supposed to be this way for all of us. If not, it's just shacking up with legal benefits.

So, anyway, I can only tell you what I would do. You said you still love your husband. I loved my wife and all she ever had to do is call off the Dv and we'd have worked the rest of it out. I think that working through our porblems and making our marriage healthy again would have been so much more fulfilling than "starting from scratch" with someone new. One of the reasons I have no interest in dating is that I'm not sure I want or can to do this again.

Hi Hon,

Personally, I would be more honest and direct with the guy. I'd say something to the affect "SF is not something I take lightly. It's a very intimate thing to share and an emotional imprint for me. When I didn't hear from you after our week-end, I was somewhat disappointed and confused."

Again, JMVHO of course.

Lv,
Jo

Jo,

I think your advice here is excellent.

Seriously, I am constantly told by the men I know that they often need to be hit in the head with a brick or a baseball bat in order to understand what we (women) are feeling and thinking. Not only are they not mindreaders (none of us are, regardless of gender), they usually get it wrong if they even TRY to guess what it is we want.

Honesty is the best policy. She should tell him. Then he will know where she stands and she will know he knows where she stands. There's nothing worse than sitting around thinking "What if he thinks I'm cheap because I slept with him? Or, what if the only thing he wanted from me is sex and now that he got it he doesn't think it's important enough to keep in touch with me because he got what he wanted..." ad nauseum. If she tells him what Jo outlines above, he should have a good clear idea of what her expectations are.

I also think that if she really had originally said she'd call him that it's likely that he took her at her word and felt that meant that he should wait for her call. I'm told that men can have fears of inadequacy after a sexual encounter - maybe he was afraid that she didn't want anything to do with him after their weekend. I think it's important for both parties in a fledgling relationship to be willing to do the work of communicating. I'd imagine it can be a very confusing world out there for men when it comes to what is the "right" thing to do in a relationship - with the advent of the feminist movement, many of the actions that were considered "gentlemanly" became patronizing or degrading in the eyes of some of the prominent feminists... how is a man to know which of these behaviors is acceptable to us unless we tell him? Gender roles in courtship are decidedly NOT as clear as they once were, so there is no absolute "the man is supposed to do thus and such" anymore.

JMNSHO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />