(((Sad)))) OMG Sad I am a little emotional today and this now made my tears flow. He is such a jerk I want to say the D word or the P(ness)word but I won't be crude today.

Sad -- you stay strong about keeping at least your dance class day. I was reading in a book I have on the divorce procedures and "good" divorce is when you both walk away a little disappointed. I know role your eyes -- you can tell me the same thing when I'm going through this. Call if you need to -- we are here for you.

tdr

(((Sadmommy)))

I don't know what to say <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Good Luck on Thursday, does your lawyer have a scheduling conflict and what does he say to do now??

Turns out Wh doesn't want to see DD at the house b/c he doesn't want to be around my family. The only family that will be there will be my bros, if they're even going to be there at all. I haven't talked to them. I don't see what the big deal is... they were there on Thanksgiving and there was no tension.

Maybe he knows about this site? I haven't really told many people outside of here and my counselor that my mom was making plans (which have fallen through) to come down... What if THAT'S what he meant when he's told me before that he can't trust me either b/c I'm not being honest with him about what I'm doing?

Also, he's asking for Tu/Thu and "first right of child care refusal" for Wednesdays. Which means I would have to call him first to see if he's available to come over and watch DD while I'm at class. I'm uncomfortable with the idea of him at the house without me there.

I just want to shake him for you Sad. Stand your ground and see where you can compromise. UGH I hate this for you.

tdr

Someone on here (I forget who) had a line in their thread to the effect that the WS does not care about the pain they cause their spouse.

This is SO TRUE. I will probably never understand (at least I hope I never understand) how someone who at one time pledged and demonstrated such self-less devotion and love and turn into such self-centered monsters.

I, too, am so sorry for the pain you're going through.

Georgia

Haven't heard anything yet.... attorney said he'd call me back this afternoon after talking to WH's attorney.

Sheesh. We had a Christmas lunch for work today, and I am so upset I could hardly eat. I just feel sick about all of this.

I thought I HAD compromised, tdr, offering to let him come see her whenever he wants at the house, as long he calls in advance and we don't have plans. I don't like the idea of her going from house to house every other night. Way too confusing for her.

I know I'm sorry you are going through this.


tdr

SM -

The comment I made earlier was made for a reason. Let me expand on it a little.

Assuming we agree that almost ALL (I mean in excess of 99%) of what a WS does follows a prophetic "script", then there are some things we can assume based on experience and empirical evidence of other WS's.

One of them, IMHO, is that whatever you offer will NEVER be enough. Period.

Part of this logic (again, IMHO) is the WS tries to "justify" in their mind how you (or me, or tdr, or whoever) is not doing "enough" to meet their needs / demands.

Hence....the rule of thumb is that you can never, ever "compromise" yourself into their good graces. As soon as you make a "good faith" offer, it will be rejected as too little.

My suggestion...draw your line in the sand and pour cement in it. Don't move it.

You are right, he is wrong. Don't let him abuse your emotions.

BTDT....Got a whole storage building full of tee shirts.

Georgia

That is a really good point, Georgia. I can see it. I swear, if I said the sky is blue, I think he would argue with me about it. I really believe a LOT of it is a control issue with him. He claims I am controlling and that's one of the reasons he wants out, but in reality, he is pretty controlling himself. It's very much his way or no way. I have to be careful to not let him bully me or walk all over me through this process!

OH Sad Mommy!! I am so sorry to hear this crap! GEorgia is right though....the WH is thoughtless, cruel and self-centered. Stand your ground like he says. You are so in the right.

Your WH is asking for a lot considering what position he is in.

Let me know if you guys arrange another get together!

Wishing you the invisible strength of 10,000 MB's.

Kim

Sadmommy,
Our WH's seem to be cut from the same cloth. Mine also tells me I am controlling and that is one of the main reasons we have to divorce. Truth is, he has always done everything exactly the way he wanted except for the affair and the reprocussions. Once it became clear that we were going to have to get legal - I am not being bullied for the first time in 15 years.

He still mentally bullies me, but I don't think he has seen me sweat yet. Stick to your guns, our kids need a voice of reason to stick up for them. ((SM))

SM, you know that I'm of the "jujitsu" mindset on the visitation subject out of the belief that most WS will not actually follow-thru on too much parenting time if it is unlimited... that was some good advice I got from a friend, "Just give him unlimited time and count on one hand the # of times he comes to get the kids." But admittedly risky advice, depends on the person. I read in Wallerstein's study that typically a divorced non-custodial parent will put the same energy/time/effort into the child as they did prior to the breakup of the M. Since you have no time to fall back on since DD is a baby, you can't know. In my case, WH only took them for 2-3 hours at a time, and in the heat of the most intense part of the A only called them every 2-3 days. When he was on the fence, he would come to the house to see the kids, but follow me from room to room, no matter how much I couldn't look at him or be in the same room with him. Then he would complain that he "could see that he had overstayed his welcome" and leave in a huff, acting to the kids and me as if WE didn't want him around. There were times I just couldn't look at him, or listen to him talk about chosing OW over me one more time!

Anyway, my point actually being that the above quote is the one thing my attorney did advise against, and after WH looked at my call-log etc (as you are worried your WH may know about MB site, and the missing mail from before) I don't think it's a good idea to allow him in the house when you aren't there. He has his privacy, you are entitled to yours. Especially at a time like this. Journals, phone messages, computer stuff, mail, etc. NOT that you have anything to hide, but you ARE entitled to your private thoughts and safety & security / privacy!

On an even more depressing PMS note, I wish I could tell you that someday if your H realizes the error of his ways he would really remember or understand the ways he has acted and the pain he's put you through and the times he's been a real jerk. The truth is, that gets forgotten, and becomes a barrier to moving on if you can't let it go. Fogtalk remains there... in the fog, never to be relived by the WS the way you have to live it now. Sorry. Just prepare yourself... I wish I could say there was justice, but not in this lifetime.

Are you confident in your attorney? No reason I ask, except that you need to be.


HUGS,
MSA

Sadmommy--
Sorry to read about the visitation issues you are having. I am watching your thread with great interest, and I am dealing, as you kow, with similar problems.
The latest is he wants to see the baby in my house for the first two months, then take him to his place 45 minutes away. Not gonna happen.
Does your lawyer talk to you about the visitation options? I see my lawyer tomorrow, and I am going to bring it up. I ama little nervous.
Hang in there. This sad mommy in Texas is praying for you.

Hi, Tex. We haven't really talked about the permanent options yet, as WH is still bickering with me over the temporary arrangement. Sheesh, I can't believe all the money and time that are being spent on something that's only going to be in place while the legal stuff is going on. And he accuses ME of dragging this out!

Thanks for posting, all you other folks. We'll just have to see what happens when my attorney calls me back today. And yes, MSA, I am confident in the guy. Wouldn't have hired him otherwise.

Sigh, please keep us in your prayers, everybody. I am still a ball of nerves today. Feeling very anxious. Glad I see the counselor today!

Great... just got a fax from the attorney's office with a proposed temporary custody order from WH's attorney. I agree with everything except Christmas. I can understand the thing about Wednesday nights, b/c it IS disruptive to her sched to have her go to sleep at WH's and then wake up to go home at 10, and he's willing to do 1 p.m. to 5:30 p.m. instead of 12:30 to 6 on Sundays, which will be better for our church sched.

But the letter that accompanied it said WH never agreed to Christmas... that I only said what I would offer and, not knowing about a hearing being scheduled, WH said he'd see her when allowed b/c he didn't want to miss out on the holiday. I'm sorry, but when you have this discussion:

WH: "So are you open at all to me taking her out of the house on Christmas Day?"
Me: "No, not really."
WH: "OK. I'll come see her at the house then, but it will be a short visit."

Is that NOT a verbal agreement? I'm wondering when his off day is for Christmas... Friday or Monday? I'd be willing to let him take her for a few hours on whatever day that is, so he could have his own special time with her. That sounds like a reasonable compromise...

I just realized that we're fighting tooth and nail over ONE afternoon. That won't even really matter to DD b/c she's so young. All the back and forth over this ONE afternoon is probably going to end up costing $2000. And it's not like we have that kind of money laying around.

If it's this bad over ONE afternoon, what does that say about the permanent stuff? Why is he being so adversarial?

I'm really at a loss here. He had said something about meeting to talk about a settlement again on Sunday. Do you think it's worth my while to do so? What's the worst that could happen? I mean, here we are almost two months into this thing and we're nowhere near talking about a permanent arrangement. Any thoughts?

We have a temporary hearing in the judge's office tomorrow afternoon. I'm nervous about it... what usually happens?

Hi SM.
I haven't had a temporay hearing--hopefully someone else can help you on that one.
But I wanted to address the permanent visitation thing--Is there a mediation you can do in place of lawyers and their high fees? Maybe even a counselor that specializes in child development or divorce--maybe the one who taught that parenting class you took would be willing to sit down and help the two of you make a good schedule. And then submit it to the attorneys if you need to have it in writing. One hour with a person like that would probably cost a lot less than back and forth with an attorney.

I would cut straight to the permanent options, as they are what really matters in the long run. My WH and I, while it is draining on me to put up with his fickle plans, have never had to go through a lawyer to talk about when he sees the kids now--but I know when the baby comes, we'll have a harder time agreeing. I am thinking about suggesting to him that we go and talk to someone who can tell us what is best for the KIDS--especially since they are so young.

He called today and made it seem like he was never going to see them and how unfair this is, blah, blah, blah. (I say that because he said it was my fault his life was gonne be this way). I said, as I have said from day 1, that I want more than anything for our boys to have you in their lives as much as possible. But see, SM, they (our WHs) have to be willing to want to see then as much as possible. In theory, it sounds great, but in action, he doesn't come as much as I would need to and want to if I wasn't able to live with my kids. I have even said he could have them every weekend if that is what he wanted--especially since boys need the manly dad influence--and they are so young they can grow up thinking this is the way things are for them. But he says no--see, that's the hard part. That's why I would try to talk about the long term visitation--that's where it gets tricky.

Good luck tomorrow. I'll be thinking of you.

Hi Tex. Yes, there are many ways you can work things out, including mediation and even sitting down yourselves to hash something out without lawyers. I wish we were at that point. I thought we had agreed on the temporary stuff on our own. However, WH changed his mind. He won't agree to anything that isn't 100% his idea or 100% his way. B/c of this hostility and the difficulties we've had, it feels like the court is the only way to go for us.

He said something Sunday about sitting down to talk about things, and I have no idea how that would go. When we've done it before, if I would say anything contrary to his wishes (such as, let's split our retirement plans) he would get very angry.

Great news! The hearing is called off. Just got a call from my attorney saying that WH agreed to come see DD at the house on Christmas Day, and now he's court-ordered to continue the level of support he's been paying. I feel so relieved... I think I'm going to have to go out for lunch! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />