I know that during recovery and what not that these precautions are necessary... but in the phone counseling Dr Harley was making it sound permanent. Is this an accurate perception? I know that in practice, it would "affair proof" your marriage, but it seems like you give up any other types of freedom. I am willing to give up sertain freedoms for a while to save my marriage and strengthen it, even a few permanently, but for example chapter 5 of HN/HN (i got it in the mail last night!!!!) says not to participate in any activites without your spouse that your spouse wouldn't mutually enjoy (or something to that effect). That doesn't leave much leeway. If I enjoy hunting, which i do, but my wife doesn't, shouldn't i be allowed to go take a 3-5 day hunting trip once a year? as long as it doesn't take away from important family events, I dont see the harm in just a little "me time". I know several married couples who have very happy and fulfilling marriages but enjoy a little time to themselves. I think this one is erring WAY TOO FAR on the side of caution. Perhaps even so far as to be detrimental ot a marriage. Im no expert, but i wanted to pose the question and get some clarification.

Hey Ray - If it's "good" for your M, why wouldn't you want to make it permanent???

Semper Fi,
RIF

Post deleted by ray3

I don't think he is talking about a hunting trip a couple times a year.

The extraordinairy precaution part should be in most marriages. That is the best way to avoid affairs. For example, I had a male friend at work, who I encouraged to buy a home. He was new to the area, it was his first home, and I got a lot of pleasure by discussing areas, prices, etc. He bought a home.

One night he was giving me a ride home, as my car wouldn't start. He invited me to go over and see his house. I really wanted to see it, but decided it would not be something a married woman should do. I declined.

This is a very important concept. If practiced, it would cut off many affairs way before they started.

In every activitiy, every conversation, people should pretend that their spouse is there, and not do or say anything that could give the appearance of not honoring their spouse.

Continuing to pray for you and your comrades.

i can agree with that, but the hunting trip is an example right out of the book HN/HN.

Also, isn't the program designed to make a marriage so happy and fulfilling that an affair wouldn't happen? I think at some point you have to trust your spouse enough to make the right decision. Just like you made the right decision. It almost sounds like a totalitarian type of control, "zero personal time, zero personal space", thats why i feel im misenterpreting it.

ray

right now I wouldn't worry or spend to much time on that detail of the relationship right now.
Yes it will be a very good idea to concentrate on your M when you get back to the exclusion to all else.

Things like what each of you like apart from the other is perhaps jumping the gun right now.

Sure consider those activities that take you away from your W as she must do the same. Thast where eventually you can discuss them honesly & POJA those things.

For instance my H loves fishing, I can take it or leave and frankly most times leave it. He'll go out in rain, storm or whatever .. not me. BUT I make the effort to go sometimes and boil the billy for tea or coffee, that sort of thing so he sees I am involved in something he loves.
He does similar things for me. I love ballroom dancing he would rather have bamboo shoved under his finger nails..lol but he takes me because I love it.
We had to learn those things all over again & so will you & your wife.

See?? its about give & take Ray. Both of you will need to learn that to recover your M. Just take it one day at a time for now ,,don't try to predict issues that may not be issues in the end.

AW has it exactly right. Personally, I used to enjoy it when my WH occasionally went somewhere. He used to go hunting with some friends every Labor Day for a week. I loved having the time alone, and took that week to plan things with my girlfriends.

Also time apart gives each one something to talk about. It would be boring for me to do everything together.

Now if the ONLY vacation was spent with husband hunting, that might be a problem.

Hi Ray,
I would say don't get too worried yet about your personal freedom. For the early stages of recovery it's important to rework things so that there is shared time together, rebuilding of intimacy, accountability, and filling up the ole' lovebanks. Then the relationship starts to take on a different feel when EN's are met, LB's understood and eliminated, and communication & intimacy are restored.

THEN, once that has happened and been in place for a while, THEN you will be able to POJA with Renee to work out recreational companionship that contributes to your lovebanks and doesn't withdraw any love units.

For example, my H loves football. Recreational compantionship is not a top 5 EN for him, but it is important to him. So I learn about football, watch some football, support him watching as much football as he likes, and we do it together to the point that it does not make me resentful of the time spent doing it, but enough that he knows I am making the effort. I don't know if that makes sense, what I'm trying to say is that when the lovebank is full (Renee gets the affection, conversation, time, etc that she needs) she will be a lot more open to the solo hunting trips. These are all POJA things.

My H and I have found a really helpful tool for POJA that our MB counselor Jennifer likes as well was "How do you feel about it on a scale of 1-10?" If I say I'm a 2, he knows that we are a long way from enthusiastic agreement. If I say I'm an 8, he knows it's fine to go. If he tells me he's a 5, I think... hmmm we better still work on this issue. It's just a really good way to gauge how you feel about something & express it. "Renee, scale of 1-10, where are you on me hunting Nov 14-19 with Bob and Tom?" She says 2, she says 9 - you know where it stands, you know? Versus a long answer of "Well, Ray, if you go on Tuesday night I have to work, but then on Wednesday I was hoping we could go visit my Mom, are you going to go hunting again later this month, what about blah blah blah..." which creates a lot of room for disagreement, miscommunication, etc. Just an idea. It can be used for big things too. "Renee, scale of 1-10 how do you feel about me re-enlisting?" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MSO, nee NTL

Ok, so aside from RIF, most of you agree with me that it is neccesary during recovery, but can be relaxed a little bit afterwards... correct?

Anyone else feel like chiming in? I am interested in this particular topic, and would like to be sure i fully undertsand it.

I think MrsSTOW has some wonderful ideas in this area. I'd just like to add a couple of pennies and one of those is that during this trip nothing should be done that you wouldn't do without her 100% agreement. I have a lot of buddies that go on "hunting" trips that involve nights at the bars and strip clubs. I also have buddies who go to hunt and truly have some down time. Amazingly, the ones who don't go hunting for the party also seem to have smoother marriages...hmm.........

Excellent point, Bill.

Ray3 - I have a question. Did you and the Renee spend 15 hours a week together having fun?

Besides your hunting trip, were there any other vacations for the two of you?

Ray

I am confused. The 'extraordinary precautions' I am aware of is in maintaining NC with OP?

It sound sto me like a couple of other Harley principles are at play in yoru situation.

POJA is designed to get enthusiastic agreement between spouses for issues big and small. If one of you wants to do something, discuss how you both feel about it and what the effects and alternatives are with your spouse in a respectful manner. It is a clumsy process at first but becomes second nature after a while.

Also the '15 hours per week minimum quality time spent together' rule is one to ensure lovebanks stay filled and ENs get met. And in truth if you both work on meeting ENs it should be pretty cool spending a few hours per week with your missus.

Squid hurled herself in to her sport (karate) pre-A and she ended up having an affair with the senior referee for the country. After I ended their affair, Squid told me she wouldn;t give up the sport she loved ( but that had also effectively ruined our marriage). I had a boundary of being treated respectfully, and I told her that to pesist in four nights per week and most weekends doing this hurtful sport was knoingly injurious and disrespectful to me and I would not tolerate it for long.

Squid backed off a little, then more, and now its just a hobby to her once again, like it was years ago.

I think solitary hobbies can be escapes from dealing with M problems.

Try using POJA on the things that you and your W want to do. Its not good for your marriage to do TOO MUCH stuff seperately, nor to go ahead with doing solitary stuff that your spouse is clearly unhappy with. It sound scrap Ray, but honestly these tools become second nature after a while.

All blessings.

im afraid you arent understanding my question. During my counseling with Dr. Harley, he discussed extraordinary precautions in the context of preventing an affair (not in the context of NC with OM from this affair), that, coupled with the part about not engaging in ANY activity that the other spouse would not equally enjoy, as stated in HN/HN chapter 5 or 6 (recreational companionship chapter) bring me to my question.

some of you seem to understand and agree with me that this is primarily directed to the recovery phase after an affair, and that it can be relaxed a little as time goes on and trust is reestablished. The others bring in all kinds of other variables that I intentionaly left out because to me they would be implied (i.e. POJA). So here is my scenario reworded in more detail...

why should you give up something you enjoy doing? as long as its not a negative influence on family time (i.e. wife has a weekend business trip, you have no kids, and your gonna be home alone for the weekend, why not go hunting?), and POJA has been followed, and my wife has no objection whatsoever to me going hunting, she says its ok with her, she wants me to go have fun.

Im a pretty black and white, right and wrong kind of person, but this one seems to totally eliminate any grey area, no wiggle room. am i interpreting it correctly? another example, my wife enjoys water aerobics, she has bad knees, and its low impact. I prefer to RUN, ive always been a runner, always will be a runner, so why cant i go for a run without her, and why cant she go to water aerobics without me (again assuming that the above variables have been duly addressed)?
The chapter in HN/HN refers to a policy of mutual enjoyment... or something like that, and it states in no uncertain terms... DO NOT ENGAGE IN ANY ACTIVITY THAT YOUR SPOUSE DOES NOT FIND MUTUALLY ENJOYABLE, or something very close to that effect. So if my wife doesn't enjoy running, I shouldn't run...period. Am I interpreting that policy of mutual enjoyment incorrectly?

just to clarify, i agree with what you all are saying, but you arent adressing my specific question.

Okay, Ray, I see you have been doing your homework. Actually, I didn't remember that part. But I checked the EN section on this site, and you are right. See below.


Why Should a Couple Plan to Be with Each Other When They Are the Happiest?
Introduction: One of the most controversial positions I take regarding marriage is that a husband and wife should be together for their favorite recreational activities. Whatever it is they enjoy doing the most, they either do with each other, or they don't do it at all.

Some feel that I am out to destroy marriage with that suggestion, not save it. After all, how can a husband and wife survive each other in life unless they are able to get away once in a while to have some fun.

"You are meddling, Dr. Harley! I need something to look forward to, and _______ is absolutely essential to my survival," is the response I often hear from spouses when first introduced to the idea. "There are some things a man and woman simply cannot enjoy together, and yet are essential to their happiness."

But my advice is not based on ivory tower speculation. It's based on years of observation. Couples who spend their most enjoyable time together tend to have great marriages, and those who do not, tend to divorce. Furthermore, I have witnessed hundreds of couples who have given up activities that only one enjoyed for activities that they both enjoyed. None went crazy, and almost all of them were very happy that they made the change.

My goal is saving marriages, and I achieve that goal by helping a husband and wife fall in love with each other. They fall in love by being with each other when they are the happiest (depositing love units), and avoiding unpleasant experiences (withdrawing love units) when they are together. Since the purpose of recreational activities is to create enjoyment, it makes sense for a husband and wife to spend their recreational time together. It's one of the easiest ways to deposit love units.

And yet, almost every day I am asked to explain again why it's so important for couples to spend their most enjoyable recreational time with each other.

ray,

Is hunting your most enjoyable recreational time? Dr. Harley uses that work "most" alot. The idea being I think that he wants you and your wife to find recreational activities that are mutually exciting. Is hunting a once or twice a year activity or has it taken you away from time you could have been spending with your wife. Are you purposely interpreting this in a way that is unreasonable....or are you really confused about it? Why not post the question to Dr. H? My guess is that if you're spending the preponderance of your recreational time together on things you love, and a weekend comes up where she's away at work and is enthusiastic about you hunting....I doubt Dr. H is going to say "no, you have to stay home and veg". You mentioned on EN that the answers were different here on GQ....they seem about the same to me.

Hey Ray,

I also agree that you can relax a bit after you've rebuilt your M. A once a year hunting trip isn't a "bad thing"... but if it makes your W uncomfortable, would you want to continue with your yearly hunt? That was my only point.

Mrs. RIF hates to fish, but I love it... Mrs. RIF will go with me and take a book along just so we can still be together. I hate shopping for antiques, but Mrs. RIF loves it... I go along with her and have a great time because I know that I'm making her happy.

Stay safe and stay focused... and thanks for your service! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Semper Fi,
RIF

ray

just to make it clear..I did take into account your statement about your wife is away working the weekend & you go hunting & both of you are ok with it.
Of course make sure Renee is always ok with it.

For instance if she has had a very hard month & worked every weekend it may not endear you to her to be hunting all that time while things at home need doing ..that sort of thing. Then you could stay home a weekend and do something just for her ... paint the kitchen that sort of thing whatever, sort washing etc etc.

Resentment is easy to build up and hard to erase. And I like that scale thing...brillant!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I believe what MB points to is when you are BOTH available for recreational time and you CHOOSE to do things apart most of the time.

Don't worry though about that now, Recover your M THEN discuss all these things.

FIND those 15 mins Ray no matter what!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />