how long should I let a WS keep things in limbo, she says she has no feelings for me & is trying but her trying just consists of her not leaving, how does a WS expect to get there feelings back without putting any effort in? she has time off around christmas should I suggest she stay with her parents a couple of weeks? is this a good Idea. At what point do you push & how hard?

TAZ-
Please provide some more details about your sitch...

When was D-Day?.. Are you in Plan A?.. If so how long?..
Is the affair still going on?

Harley and the MB books suggest a 6 month PLAN A. This is needed to make as many love bank deposits as possible...

Have you read the book "How to survive an affair"? Also, study the MB information about meeting emotional needs.

Many on here suggest PLAN B early on, but I think you need to understand where you stand with her first and why she is a WS... Remember it took both of you for her to become a WS..

Good luck.

NC for 7-8 weeks now doing what I can on plan A even though A has stoped, out of withdrawal for about 2 weeks. I have looked at me & have been changing, she admits that I am trying but is not sure its a permanent change yet. I have orded that book & the EN book I gave her The En questionnair & she doesent want to fill it out, she thinks she will be sending me a mixed message if she answers it trufully because she is not prpared for me to try & meet some of her EN like affection. I sugested that se still fill it out because they are her needs & I will work on the ones that shes ok with. I am aware it took both of us to be in this situation but she is not the other day she stated that she thought I was the only one that needed to change that she only needed to change how she reacts to me>

All sounds familiar.

Give it time. Don't push too hard. As the "fog" clears, her opinions will change as well.

Your wife is about where I was a year ago in terms of NC. 2x4 alert: If you truly want to take her out of limbo, kicking her out for the holidays might just do the trick. You could drive her out of the M altogether. My H had a similar idea last year, having us spending Christmas apart, and it was incredibly hurtful to hear him suggest it.

Instead of asking her to leave during the holidays, why not try and plan something special... something a little different?

Are you in MC?

She needs to understand her role in making the M vulnerable, even if it is simply "how she reacts" to you. I was a classic conflict avoider, and because of that, allowed resentment to build up. IOW, my reaction (or lack thereof) to things my H did that upset me was a clear problem in the pre-A relationship. So yes, she does need to change some things within herself. If she doesn't think that, she's in dinial big time.

As an FWW, I don't think "pushing" and "getting tough" is the answer. Plan A is. Make yourself someone she wants to be with. You can't control her behavior, but you can control your own.

Thanks for all your input & your suggestions I know in my heart I have to wait it out but its tough being the "doormat" for now. I expect things will change sooner or later. we have had a long history of sweeping things under the rug & forgeting about them & letting resentment build up which is why we are at this point in our relationship.


Cliff

tazcliff, as long as she remains in denial and tries to "blame you" for HER choices, you are NOT in recovery. You will not be in recovery, working together, until the gravity of her choice to commit adultery AS her "response" to "being unhappy with you" is felt and becomes "repugnant" to her.

We are talking about "personal responsibility" for OUR choices. YOU have to accept the responsibility for your past choices and behaviors and decide what needs to be changed to make YOU a more "loveable" person that someone would want for a husband. Likewise, you wife needs to do the same for her self.

So the choice is "simple" to make, but "hard" to implement. The marriage is already over by HER choice. IF the marriage is going to be attempted to be saved, and ultimately improved over what it once was, it is going to take both of you to COMMIT and ENDURE and ACT, no matter what you may be feeling (or not feeling) at any given time. In short, you CHOOSE.

The "hard part" for you right now is that you need to set some Boundaries, and it seems as though you either don't have them, or you are very weak in the "enforcement" department. Boundaries are those things you will NOT allow someone else to do to you. Willful violation of those Boundaries carries with it "consequences" that you enact. It is NOT open to discussion or negotiation because they are YOUR boundaries.

So let's talk about this idea of being a "Doormat." When you choose to attempt recovery, as the Betrayed Spouse, you ACCEPT a certain amount of what could be seen and felt as being a "doormat." For example, most others would say, "why don't you just kick her to the curb? That's what I'd do!!" Many of us PRIOR to the affair would have said much the same; "IF you ever cheat on me I'm leaving!"

The "reality" is what you are dealing with now. This was, and is, a HUGE betrayal of both you and her own self-image, self-value system. She may not realize it yet, but in many ways her choice to use Adultery as her "solution" to her emotional distress may be the harder thing for her to deal with over the long haul than is her "feeling", or lack of "feeling," for you at this moment in time.

You choose recovery BECAUSE you love your wife, despite the pain that her actions have caused. It may not seem to make a lot of sense, but that is because you LOVE her. Were she "just a friend" who betrayed you, you probably would have already severed "ties" with her by now.

So, only you can choose how much to "put up with" for now, as you begin the recovery process. I can only tell you, in "cold comfort," that virtually ALL recoveries start out the same way you are encountering....."Well, I'll try, but I just don't know if it can be done?" Well guess what, you don't if it can be done either. None of us KNOWS the future, but we "shape" the future by our choices and actions TODAY. TODAY is all that you CAN control, and even that control is only partial. So you, both you and your wife, ACT in loving ways even if you don't FEEL like it.

That's NO different than when you first began dating. You each ACTED in a friendly way, that began to develop into a loving way, that ended in the emotions FOLLOWING on the heels of the prior ACTIONS. That's how it works.

Don't believe me? IF Emotions came first. IF you could react Emotionally first, by choice and on command, then you should be able to the following request IMMEDIATELY.

I want you to get "flaming angry" with me....RIGHT NOW!!!

That's right, turn on that EMOTION right now! And I'm not talking about "acting angry," I'm talking about you feeling the seething rage of [color:"red"]ANGER!!!![/color]

The same holds true for LOVE and the other emotions. They are the RESULT, not the cause, of our actions. We can, as you are doing, choose to endure, to act in certain ways, because you ALREADY love your wife, but it's unlikely you'd attempt it if past actions had not already resulted in feelings of love. Why do you think Harley talks about a "Love Bank?" It's simple. Deposits that raise the "feelings" of "in-love" are a result of ACTIONS you CHOOSE. Those POSITIVE choices make deposits, and just as surely NEGATIVE choices make withdrawals. Right now, your marital "joint love bank account" is "paycheck to paycheck" mode and "overdrawn" by the end of the month. The ONLY way to solve that problem is to begin to make larger deposits, or more frequent deposits. That takes time and commitment. It takes patience and fortitude. It takes honoring YOUR marriage vows (especially the ones that call for hanging in there during the "bad times").

But, she does NOT get a "Free Ride" in all of this. The marriage IS over, by her choice, already. IF she wants to try to recover, SHE must agree to certain "terms" that YOU establish. For example, JOINT marital counseling with a trained counselor who is himself/herself committed to saving marriages. If you are Christians, weekly attendance at church, no matter what you are feeling. Etc.

No, it is NOT easy, especially at the beginning. But most "good things" in life are not attained without effort, without work, without doing the "unpleasant but necessary" because you know that going the distance WILL result in the attainment of the goal....the goal of a "recovered and better than it was" marriage.

So, to answer your question about "at what point do you get tough with them," you don't. You establish your Standards and you Boundaries. You set requirements that you BOTH must meed, like counseling, church, etc. You make it clear that the past "didn't work" and there will be no returning to the "way it was." You will create a NEW marriage, with new responses from both of you. That's where things like Honesty and Openness, POJA, the Policy of Caring, etc. will come into play.

In the past, you both stumbled around BEING married. Now you are going to WORK at the needs of being married and CHOOSE those things that are beneficial and set aside those things that are detrimental to marriages in general and to your marriage in particular.

God bless.

You are not sitting around waiting for the recovery bus to arrive .... you are ~actively~ demonstrating/living new and improved marriage skills and personal growth insights.

A doormat is for wiping dirt off your shoes before you enter a room. A doormat has no feeling or opinions about receivng all this dirt.

YOU are NOT a doormat.

YOU have feelings ~~~ and you have a mouth and a heart.

YOU must express your feelings to your wife in respectful non-love-busting ways. Start these sentences with "I feel ...."

A doormat has no ears.

YOU have ears. You can use your ears to listen to and actually hear what your wife is saying. Many women have an emotional need to have someone "just listen" when she is sharing her feelings. Do not make the common male error of making suggestions as a way of helping her work thing out .... repeat after me

"When my wife shares her feelings I will listen then thank her for sharing .... and I will not say anything after that unless I am asked for suggestions. If I am asked for suggestions, I will first ask her ~~~ "What were you thinking of doing?~~~"

When your wife is looking/sounding distraught .... ask her "May I just hold you right now?"

If she says "yes" .... just hold her and don't say ~anything~ .... women LOVE this!!!!!

If she says "no" ... you say "Let me know if you change your mind. My arms are open whenever you need them."

Then say ... "Can I make you a cup of tea?" .... any warm beverege she likes.

See ... no doormat can hug or make tea or listen ..... but YOU can! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

foreverhers, your right we were not in
recovery Im on the outside looking in.I realise from reading everyons post im expecting things to move much faster than they will.

Its one of the reasons why I post so I can vent & say the wrong things so I dont make withdrawals, as far as Standards and Boundaries do I set those now ? she wont agree to counseling right now & will walk away if I force the issue with her, my counselor also suggested giveing her more time, we are talking about everyday stuff & we are both being nice to each other, i have to work on myself & make deposits in her account until she is ready to deal with the real issues.


pepperband, thank you the doormat comment was half ment as a joke on my part it nice to see by what you said Im doing the right things, my only problem is getting her to stop thinking what I feel insted of asking me how I accually feel she does let me hold her to a centern extent when were in bed but out side of that hand holding, affection makes her uncomfortable right now, she says it make it worse for her because she didnt have it from me for so long & she wonder why I can do it now all of a sudden.

One of the other thing she is struggling with is as foreverhers said in her mind the marrige was over, she had decide that I didnt care anymore without bothering to ask me so it makes her feel worse because she now knows that I do care about her & if she had known she wouldt have done what she did. Than to make matters worse she was convinced that the OM was in love with her & they were going to be together, when the A was found out he decide to try & fix things with his Wife so she felt betraied & confused by us both.

She donsent really look/sound distraught any more but she still does not trust what Im saying yet about how I feel.

Sorry for rambling & the poor writing I hope I didnt leave anything out, thank you everyone for your help support & Ideas keep them comming.

Cliff

so I long do I giver her to work through the fog & denile befor she takes some responcibility for our problems & put some effort into saving the marriage because right now she really has no consequences for her actions because I have been so understanding & no one she really cares about knowes, I dont mind working plan A & changing myself which has to happin reguardless.

cliff

Any more comments or suggestions?

This is such a completely false statement. The cheating spouse is a cheating spouse 100% of their own volition. It does not take two people to make some "become a Wayward" spouse. Yes, I understand the whole "I didn't meet my WS emotional needs so they cheated " mantra, but please don't confuse this here. Too many people are confuded as it is.

I fear that far too many people get this confused concept in their head and actually start believing that they themselves (BS) made their Wayward Spouses cheat...NO...NO....NO... A wayward Spouse cheats becasue they CHOOSE to cheat. No one else should bear even .0001% of the responsibility for this.

Lem