rb123-

I'm sorry, I disagree. Whether love is a verb, noun, pronoun or an adjective, is irrevelant. This is no longer about "love". It's about ABUSE.

The only thing Cherished needs to change is her address! And the main skill she needs to learn, is how she is reacting to this.

I, too, beleive people can change. But the only way this situation will change, is if she is not there, waiting for it to change, especially at the expense of her children, who also seem to be aware that this is a dysfuctional setting.

I strongly beleive in God as well. And Cherished DOES have biblical grounds to leave.

There is no desire or respect on her H's part to salvage this, instead he treats her with hate, anger and resentment for even having to be there! He's made it pretty cut and dry!

Not meant to spark a flame, JMO. Take care...

Jennifer68

Your words are sobering, and I appreciate them. This may, in fact, be more of an exit strategy than a real attempt to repair the marriage. I have "drawn a line in the sand," so to speak.

There is nothing in my background to indicate that I would have accepted abuse. I was the classic "teacher's pet". I so wanted to please my parents and they were so willing to tell me what to do that I never developed judgment of my own. When Tom told me that it was my problem and all my problem that our marriage was so bad, I believed him.

I am very concerned about our son. I see the potential for him to be abusive as well. Our girls -- I think they will be very reluctant to marry.

They are still young. I think that the 15 hour "line in the sand" forces a decision. Harley hasn't exactly thrown up his hands. He's more or less said that the ball is in Tom's court, not mine. What I have done is tolerate a trend toward the emotional divorce that is neglect, pure and simple. I put up with that disregard for several years but with the hope that he would eventually want to find happiness with me and his children. Now, I know that allowing neglect again means accepting this as a condition for the rest of our lives. I have had to be willing to give up the trappings of marriage before Tom could see that, all along, what I have wanted and needed is a romantic relationship with one man who would be a caring husband to me and caring father to any children we might have. He still can do it. My heart is still open to him. But I cannot simply let the years glide by as our children grow up with this as a model for marriage.

Cherished

It's time for you to put action into place. We all predicted he would blow off the 15 hrs per week and here it is. I sincerely believe it's time for Plan B, get the letter going and go dark...this will help you get out of the insanity and drama and you can begin to focus on you and your children, not this idiot of a husband who totally disregards and disrespects you.

STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND SWING, OKAY....YOU LAID IT OUT FOR HIM TO COME THROUGH, HE MISSDED THE BALL AND STRUCK OUT. TAKE THE POWER BACK TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

"To people who are after Cherished to leave her husband

I challenge you to come up with a plan that could save her marriage. Marriage builder principles are based on education and behavior modification techniques. Bad behavior is replaced with good behavior."


In the info pages of this site, Harley clearly states that MB can work EXCEPT when addiction or abuse is present and that the addiction or abuse needs to be treated FIRST before using MB. Harley also states that using MB while addiction or abuse is present actually ENABLES it to continue.

Edit: I meant to say Plan A instead of MB....Plan A enables addiction and abuse.

Cherished, I have followed your story for a long time. I believe that you have what it takes to do what is necessary, but I don't think that you know it yet. What's more, I think that Tom knows it too....and why he plays his yoyo game. He must keep your focus on him, Cherished....otherwise his only choices would be to recover with you or not. Right now he still has a formula that works to control you and your situation....it's called Ok, I'll do MB--No, I won't--Fine, I'll do MB--No, I won't--I'll do MB--No, I won't--etc etc etc.

Cherished, have you wondered why he is willing to spend some pretty big $$ to NOT follow the program? If it's not for the benefit of a rebuilt marriage, why do you think he might be doing it (on and off, on and off, on and off, on and off).

Best wishes to you Cherished. I will keep following your story. You have what it takes for there to be a happy ending for you and your kids. I'm glad that you work with Harley.....keep that lifeline, ok?

Cherished:

Please ELIMINATE the 15 hour "in the sand" thing. Even if this wasn't a learned behavior on your part, it is for your kids. You even said it your self, that you see the potential in your son of this cycle repeating itself. These early years in their lives is where this pattern all begins! NOW is the time to step in and break this cycle and nip it in the bud before it becomes a permanent part of their characters.

Use the 15 hours to plan your future with your kids!
Take care of yourself and the kids, Cherished!

Jennifer68

Tom got himself off the job that requires weekly travel and will be in town with limited travel for three months. He wants me to drop the 15 hours, but I'm done with trying to encourage or cajole or coerce. He either steps up to the plate to create a romantic relationship with me, or he doesn't. It's up to him. If he thinks a commitment of 15 hours per week is too much of a burden for him -- why would I even try after what I've been through?

Our computer isn't working, so I'm at the library just skimming the notes. I have to keep a close eye on the 4 year old and 6 year old, but I do appreciate the concern and the support. I'll read more closely when our computer is fixed or I'm able to get to the library without the kids. Thank you!

Loving Boundaries -- You are saying exactly what Harley is saying -- he's toying with me, doing what he can to keep the marriage going for today. Sorry. I'm done with that. That's why I said we separate for a week if we don't make 15 hours the first time, separate for two weeks the next time, and on and on. Then we become separated over time or we learn how to spend 15 hours together enjoyable. There's no in-between. No on again off again, no toying with let's make time enjoyable, no "I was available but you wanted to go shovel snow before the snowplow cleared the street and made it harder to clear the driveway, so it's your fault we didn't make 15 hours."

I gave an ultimatum. If that's what it takes, I'm not sure it's worth it even if we do make 15 hours. All I'm sure is it's definitely not worth it continuing if we don't make 15 hours. It's up to him. This can be an exit strategy for him if he wishes -- he can say the 15 hours weren't enjoyable so he doesn't want to continue, or I wasn't available every time he was so it's my fault -- I am perfectly content with taking the blame for this marriage ending.

Cherished

I think that I have an idea of why you need to do the 15 hour/separate process, but I also think that you might be giving Tom another tool of control at the same time. For one thing, unless you separate under Plan B-type conditions then your focus will still be on Tom/marriage instead of yourself and your kids. He will still have the benefit of your attention being wrapped up in him, without him having to do anything---except whatever he wants to do during the separation, and I would expect those things to be upsetting to you.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if you separated and then Tom claimed to be Plan B'ing you....and it would probably be an effective maneuver on his part. For some people, a little knowledge can be dangerous because of the way that they use it when their motives are not pure. When Tom uses MB terminology, it is likely that you hear it in the way that YOU would mean it....and I suspect that's one of the ways that you are kept in a state of hope--despair--hope--despair--hope--despair etc etc etc. For Tom, MB seems to be just another control tool.

Cherished, you've said that your health is failing. Typically, failing health due to your type of circumstances does not continue to fail at the same rate....it fails faster and faster as time goes on. I am concerned that you are on borrowed time as far as your health is concerned. Have you considered that Tom might be trying to keep the marriage until your health fails to the point that you COULDN'T divorce? That is what I suspect his ultimate motive is, Cherished, and he's well on his way to accomplishing it. If he breaks your arm, he will go to jail.....but if your health fails, he won't go to jail. Instead, he will be able to keep you and your children imprisoned in an abusive environment....and you will be drastically limited in being able to do anything about it then--for yourself or for your children.

Please, Cherished, whatever you do and for however long you do it, please keep the lifeline that you have with Harley.

Best wishes to you Cherished <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi Cherished,

The last thread I read of yours you had decided to end your marriage...and now I just read this new thread. What happened girl, to make you change your mind?

What I am going to say you won't like, but I believe with all my heart that you need 6 months of no contact whatsoever with your husband, before you will even be able to think straight.

Do you remember my story Cherished? It is not the same as yours at all, except for the fact that I had been involved for 5 years, living with and engaged to a master manipulator. He even was able to manipulate a very valuable piece of island property away from me. I won't go into it all here, but I believe he was very abusive to me now...very, very controlling and manipulative.

When he left, I called SH and he told me 6 months, 6 MONTHS of no contact with him and then see how I feel.

Well this is the sixth month and I have never been happier. I think clearly, I laugh, I have let God back into my life...my daughter is happy, my friends are happy.

Night and day Cherished, is what that 6 months meant to my mind. It cleared it.

That is what you need...and then, and only then will you will be able to look at your marriage with any clarity at all, and make a good decision one way or the other.

I'm so sorry to be harsh and give such a harsh idea, but I think that is what you need hon.

That's why I said we separate for a week if we don't make 15 hours the first time, separate for two weeks the next time, and on and on. Then we become separated over time or we learn how to spend 15 hours together enjoyable. There's no in-between. No on again off again

Cherished,

I am going to say it.. That is one of the silliest plans I have ever heard. It is also very childish and controlling. I cannot, for the life of me, figure out how you come up with this.

You are looking for and finding ways to continue on the path that you are on. This absurd plan shows it.

JMHO
committed

Cherished,
I agree with both weaver and with committed. The only thing your "plan" is doing is placing 100% of the expectations for YOUR life and YOUR CHILDREN's lives squarely on the shoulders of a man who has made it clear he is just not interested in being a husband or a father.

In other words, you are doing absolutely none of the things that are in YOUR power -- and from what you have posted, there are a lot -- to help yourself and your children.

Instead, you choose to sit back and wait for your WH to make all of you happy. He has said, and shown, *repeatedly* that he is not going to do that.

When will you do the things that YOU can control, instead of trying to force someone else to do things they have no interest in doing?

As they say all the time around here, you cannot control what someone else does. You can only control what you do. This is a prime example of that. You are doing the exact opposite -- trying to pressure and force and cajole and manipulate (yes, manipulate) your WH into doing what you want instead of doing the things that are in YOUR power to do.

That's why nothing is getting any better for your or for your children.
Mulan

I can't read this any longer. Are you out of your friggin mind!!!! If I were a judge I would strip you both of parental rights. Him for being abusive and you for allowing you children to be exposed to such abuse! This is unbelievable! He broke you arm, and not such a simple break. What will you do if he reaches out and grabs one of your children by the neck!! That will not be a break that is repairable. 15 hours? He doesn't want to spend 5 seconds with you! What is the next demand you have to make!! When are you going to get some kind of clue. Wake the F up!! You are doing those children wrong and you should be ashamed of yourself. I love this quote from one of my favorite movies " Stupid is as stupid does " ! And woman you are being all that.
Mulan, go help someone who are really in need of your awesome advise. You are wasting time here. There are people who need your help!!!!

Hey Cherish, Im wondering if this is what you really want-- permission to walk away.

So heck-

I GIVE YOU PERMISSION TO GET OUT!

Cherished,

I know you're getting some hard knocks here, but it's for a reason. You are trying to be reached, and it's becoming frustrating. Speaking only for myself, I have to wonder what it would take to get thru to you. Your fog is VERY thick!

One of the concerns I have is that you will eventually lose your kids over this insanity. It could happen, so you need to SNAP OUT OF THIS, and begin to THINK! LOGICALLY!

I'll continue to pray for you and your children. If this could be done FOR you, I'm sure by now, MANY here would have stepped in taken care of this! But, as it is, it's up to YOU! And ONLY YOU! Your kids can't even take action to protect themselves! This job belongs to YOU! THEY DEPEND ON YOU!!! All they have is YOU! THIS is where your focus should be!

Please take care....

Jennifer68

What can I say? Comparing neglect, abuse, and infidelity, the neglect was the worst. Neglect is like diabetes -- it kills you inch by inch. Abuse and infidelity are like heart attacks -- at least you know you need to deal with it.

We made 15 hours this week.

My health has been failing, but what really concerns me is the psychological health of our children and in particular our son.

My plan came out of sheer frustration. We separated once. He's told me over and over that he is sorry for what he has done, what he has done is in the past, and he can't do anything about them. Fine. Then let's create a great marriage, not sink back into a marriage of emotional divorce. I considered that possibility for about two days on a thread on GQII, and I realized I couldn't stand making that choice.

I cannot control him, I cannot coerce him, and I cannot convince him. All I can do is let him know that I cannot cope with a marriage devoid of infidelity, abuse, and care. I need a marriage of care. That's why the 15 hours is there.

It is a silly and childish plan. It sets up a line in the sand and if not fulfilled it will result in separations of increasing lengths.

How else can I get out of a marriage in which I cannot cope but refuse to give up hope? This does put the ball in his court. He can decide to spend 15 hours a week trying to build a relationship with me, or not. He can decide if this really is a way for us to end our marriage, or if it is a way to rebuild our relationship. I'm open to either. I'm not open to a marriage with time together of 3 hours, 5 hours, per week -- a marriage in which we are not each other's highest priority.

At least I've done that. At least I've set a boundary on neglect.

I do feel very ambivalent about this. It's like a woman telling her boyfriend, "Marry me, or I want to break up." What sort of a husband would that boyfriend be if he felt cornered into marrying? In my case, I'm not sure that fulfillment of the condition of an ultimatum would lead to a marriage of care, but I am sure I can no longer cope with a marriage of fits and starts, of one counselor after the other, and little to no progress.

When I was single, I did break up with a guy after a year of dating. He came back two years later and proposed. I turned him down. No thanks.

In this case, I am giving one last chance that we would actually spend time together and try to make it enjoyable. If it doesn't work, I will have no regrets in filing for legal separation.

Cherished

This week isn't going so well. We're at 5 hours. I was so sick last night I felt like I should go to the ER. Stress related migraine?

I have put the control in his hands. We separate if we don't maintain a rolling average of 15 hours alone together.

Cherished

So cherished, I'm curious as to when you will wake up? When your kids marry into an abusive household? Or in highschool, when your daughter starts to date her abusive jock of a bf or when the police come to your house to talk to your son about some serious matter dealing with the oposite sex.

Lady wake up please, or your kids when they do reach a certain age and look back and see how you did not protect them and cherished them, but wanted that from a man, who could have cared less about all of you.

I've seem it happed, kids who realized that their parent put them in harms ways, when they had other options to protect them but choose their mate over their flesh and blood, do not be suprised when they do not visit often, more so if you stay in this abusive marriage, why don't you take your namesake and cherish your kids instead, of some guy who not only cheated on you but broke your arm and also a verbal, emotional bully of a man.

Oh he is also a coward because instead coming right out and saying it to your face he seems to enjoy all of your efforts to heal your marriage yourself.
I does come a time when you have to look at the big picture and so far, not only have to you refused to do so, you make ultimatums that you know he will not take serious because both of you are in a pattern where you know it does not mean anything . H telling you to SHUT UP!!! proves that he know that you are not going anywhere so he not going to put in any efforts to change why should he you never call him on it. So the extremely big WHITE ELEPHANT is still being swept under the rug with your kids tripping on. You and your H are teaching your kids some very bad relationships habits which they will take into their adulthood, into how they interact with their friends, spouses, bosses coworkers, you are setting them up to fail.

Sorry if u think that everyone is beating up on you but the sins of the father will be laid at both of your feets.

Ok, Cherished, this is just a stab in the dark, in an attempt to gain some understanding on your position. So please don't take offense.

Could it be that you are afraid to leave. And I don't mean afraid in terms of being alone, or without him, but actually SCARED, of his reaction, so you're laying this all out to look like you've tried, and that he will interpret your leaving as his fault, and less likely to retaliate, in a threatening way?

I know I could be way off, but I'm just curious. I could understand if this were the case. I've known this tactic to be used before, just out of plain FEAR. I was afraid when I left my XH, not being sure how he'd react, so I waited for him to screw up again so he couldn't blame me when I left. (I didn't have to wait long, unfortunately). It wasn't meant to be game playing, just a move I had to plan ahead for. I, too, had false hopes that he'd change, but it never happened, until I left. I know this wasn't the best way to handle it, but fear will cause more than some think, and sometimes prevent you from doing what you KNOW in your heart is right!

Anyway, this is just a thought. Again, no offense!

Jennifer68

We finished the week at 8.5 hours, almost all of which was arguing about the car heater and my ultimatum that we maintain a 15 hour per week average.

Our hour balance is now at 9.5 hours.

I think it may be silly to have him out of the house for just one week if we fail to maintain a 15 hour average. He said he wouldn't leave anyway, and I said I'd file for legal separation if he wouldn't leave.

I don't really expect anyone to understand where I am coming from. I did try having him move out, and he had what my father described as a "bachelor pad." He'd come by for food, laundry, and sex, and then he'd be off to enjoy golf and Sunday afternoon football. Why would he want to move back home?

As long as I am willing to have hope, I think the only chance that we would be able to reconcile is if I made our living together conditional on 15 hours per week. If he's out of the house, then I want our time together to be 0 hours.

LM, this may well be the best I can muster as an exit strategy. At least I have committed to not allowing this dismal marriage to continue as is. Hope everyone had a good Christmas.

Jennifer, He cracked my skull 8 years ago. I have a ridge all along the top of my skull and lumps on my forehead. Of course, I am scared. He's said several things over the past week like "If I had a gun, I'd shoot myself" and "I wish I was dead." My ultimatum is that we spend 15 hours together trying to meet each other's ENs. Why is that ultimatum so horrible for him? By establishing a condition for living together upfront, I am giving him the option of this being an exit strategy if he so chooses. He seems to be blaming me for our failure to make the time. Fine. I'm willing to take the blame. I'd rather be divorced than have either one of us miserable. If he doesn't think we can be happy together, I'd rather he decide that today than have our marriage linger on and on in misery.

Cherished

I think it may be silly to have him out of the house for just one week if we fail to maintain a 15 hour average.

Yep...silly at its finest.


He said he wouldn't leave anyway, and I said I'd file for legal separation if he wouldn't leave.

No...you won't. He KNOWS that you won't...your words have become empty threats to him and I would wager that he has a hand gesture for you when you start with your ultimatums.


Why would he want to move back home?

Why indeed...you are the consumate enabler Cherished.


As long as I am willing to have hope,

That is what keeps a compulsive gambler buying that lottery ticket and placing that next bet. They hold on to the HOPE that they will hit it big this time. Without that hope all would be lost...there would be no need for them to continue gambling...or even living.


At least I have committed to not allowing this dismal marriage to continue as is.

You are committed to controlling him...and changing him...the marriage has nothing to do with it.

JMHO
committed

My 11 year old daughter was crying yesterday before dinner and didn't want to come because she was upset about Dad yelling at Mom.

At minimum, I will have him out of the house for one week, or I will file for legal separation if he refuses to go. His proprosal, of course, is that I leave. I'm not leaving. I have kept a series of four drawings that my daughter (age 6) drew of Dad angry, Dad with smoke, Dad with fire, and Dad blew up. I do feel ambivalent about making an ultimatum, but I am very certain that it is time to end the marriage if he isn't willing to spend 15 hours per week.

I cannot control him. I cannot change him. I cannot convince him. What I am doing is telling him this is about me. I cannot cope with a marriage in which I am not worth 15 hours per week. And our children deserve better.

I am scared. I'm not sure how he'll react.

Cherished