Jennifer,

Do keep us in your prayers. I see a better reflection of what is going on in my life from the words of others than perhaps from my own judgments. It just doesn't seem to me that I am seeing the situation quite as it is. I keep thinking that I must have caused this and so I can change myself so this doesn't continue. In fact, all I can do is say I cannot take it anymore and separate.

Cherished

Committed and loving it:

Here is something Harley wrote to me:
"But the bottom line is that if you're happy with a decision, he somehow thinks that he should be unhappy with it. Your success adds up to his failure. That's why caring for you makes no sense to him. If he does anything to make you happy, he thinks it's a setback for him. And if you are to make him happy, he expects you to sacrifice to achieve it. In other words, making him happy should represent a setback for you."

It just seems so bizarre to me that I cannot quite get my arms around it, but I think Harley's nailed what the problem is. Somehow, the only way Tom can feel he's happy is if I'm unhappy. I certainly had the view that I could be happy if he was happy even if what he was doing wasn't directly making me happy, but I never thought that the only way I could be happy was if he was unhappy. It just seem so twisted. I have puzzled over this. It's as if I'm the competition or the enemy. "If I golf, I win. If I don't golf, you win." It's an either-or dichotomy. How can a person get to age 46 thinking that marriage is like a game in which there is one winner and one loser? In marriage, both win or both lose.

Cherished

Cherished-

No matter what the situation is, or who caused what, it NEVER warrants violence! Violence is over the line!! Once that takes place, all bets are off!

You are NOT the cause of his violence! You cannot change a violent person into a non-violent person. It is what it is, with or without your help. The only thing you need to differently or change is the present time, and how you plan to spend the rest of your life! Shift gears. Make the sole committment to the children, and RUN WITH IT! Make them proud! Be strong!

Prayers ALWAYS,
Jennifer68

Jennifer68,

When Tom broke my arm, it was three hours before a therapy appointment for me. He took me. The therapist referred him to an anger management counselor who met with me the next month.

I sat in the room talking to this anger management therapist and said that Tom is such a nice guy -- does he really belong in the group? The look on that man's face was memorable -- he was aghast and astonished. He said, very simply, "If he broke your arm, he belongs in this group."

I have come to realize that there is nothing I could have done to cause his violence. He's needed to do take responsiblity for that himself. He hasn't touched me since March of 2002 when he threw me down on the cast. He has worked hard to not be violent. The problem is that the underlying cause of the violence, at least from my perspective, is still present. LM comments aside, I do think it is looking upon decisions as win-lose instead of knowing there are win-win solutions out there and having the consideration to want to find them.

Cherished

Cherished,

I am not intending in any way to be offensive to you. I'm glad to know that he has tried hard not to be violent. As you suspect, the underlying problem which caused the violence still exists. The anger still exists. Not all abuse is physical.

I know this is not an easy situation. Believe me, I know! I've been divorced for 11 years. I have 3 daughters. 18 yr. old twins, and a 17yr. old. I left when the girls were 4 and 5. I was 26, and am now 37, with NO regrets! My marriage never reached violence, although, I always knew the potential for it was there! However, it was still abusive. Verbally and emotionally. Along with drugs, alcohol, and infidelity. I had to decide whether I wanted my girls to view this as acceptable or not. Would they have blamed me for leaving or staying. They now understand at their ages, why it had to happen. I think they probably even understood back then. It still breaks my heart to remember their little faces thru that whole disaster!

During that time, I did and said some of the same things you are now. I told him after the first time of cheating, that if it happened again, I was gone. That he needed to get clean and sober, and settle down. Well, he tamed down for a while. Then after a few years went by, it started again, and that was it. I packed up the girls, and went home! Unlike you, I did not leave with an education, other than a high school diploma, but I did not care! I fortunately have very loving parents who accepted me home with open arms! I thank God for this everyday! God only knows how this all could of ended up, had I stayed!

Only now, after all this time, can he and I be friends and speak equally to each other. He went to prison for 5 years, and has been out for a year. Although he's very sorry and remorseful for all he put the girls and I thru, he wouldn't have been sorry had I stayed. He didn't respect me then. But he respects me now, because I now respect myself. I would still never go back to him. I have found that life is much more peaceful the way it is.

Anyway, I could go on and on! I'm rambling now.

Cherished, just give this some hard thought. You never know what life could be like without all this saddness and hurt, until you finally take that first step in utilizing what you have right in front of you. CHOICE!!

Sorry for the ramble! Your situation brought back some old thoughts! Al-Anon came to mind!

Take care........

Jennifer68

One more thing. I know this is a marriage building website, and the decision I made for my marriage would not be the answer for everyone. I do believe in a solid marriage. I just believe there are certain acceptions, and there's just a time when you have to accept it for what it is, and will always be, and move on. This was one of those acceptions. Take care...

Jennifer68

"If I golf, I win. If I don't golf, you win." It's an either-or dichotomy. How can a person get to age 46 thinking that marriage is like a game in which there is one winner and one loser? In marriage, both win or both lose.

Wow Cherished... you just said something that I have told my H a few times before. It's a competition thing. Men are competitive, but when they are competitive with the wife in marriage, it's disasterous. It will never work, that's why negotiating, and joint agreements are so difficult for them. If they get off of the competitive ground with the wife, the marriage will win.

Does your H have a competitive job?

Lady

He's a congenial consultant. Like others in his anger management group, he's a person people say is "just the nicest guy." At home, he gave at a loss when I thought we were negotiating to mutual agreement. He blew up after the fourth child was born. I thought we had agreed to have a fourth child. He thought he gave in to my demands.

Now I am making a demand -- 15 hours together.

Cherished

I read this post with alarm. First, a big hug, I am very sorry you are going through this ordeal.

What makes you think he will change or want to spend 15 hours per week with you? He broke your arm 3 years ago? I personally cannot believe you have stayed with this immature man this long after violence reared its ugly head in your marriage but that is your choice and only you can decide. Look at what he has done to you---PHYSICAL HARM...you cannot change this man, he has to look in the mirror to want to change himself. I am glad he is in anger management.

First, I truly believe your H does not respect you. You have put forth demands and threats and not followed through.
What is your plan after he does not meet your 15 hours/week ultimatum? I would begin to line up an attorney and seriously protect YOUR CHILDREN because this could get ugly and violent very quickly. He blew up after your child was born????? What the .&*((**&*(!!!!

Be prepared and get a plan together TO SAVE YOURSELF AND YOUR CHILDREN.

I am very sorry but I think you know deep down what you need to do and are in denial. Stand up for yourself because he will only continue to put you down until he respects you.

Just my humble opinion as always.

He does look in the mirror. No, he doesn't respect me. No, he doesn't care about me. What Harley has said is that you don't have to have a good attitude. You just have to practice caring and respectful behavior. I think he's right. It takes a decision to rebuild a relationship after something like this. You don't just go along and hope it improves.

The plan is very simple. If we are unable to spend 15 hours together, for whatever reason, then I will ask him to leave for a week and come back and try again. If he won't leave, I will file for legal separation. I have an attorney lined up. I have the financial documentation she wants.

Things are different this time. Last Friday, when he got angry and left, I found our son in his bedroom crying. And our daughter called and asked that he stay away.

He's been traveling nearly every week since August. He will be home tomorrow night, in town all next week, and on vacation the following week. We're simply at the point of decision.

For all you WSs out there, the broken arm was nothing emotionally compared with the affair. Nothing. I was hurt, I was upset, I had a cast or splint up past my arm for 4 1/2 months when I was caring for a baby, and it was nothing compared with the hurt of an affair. With abuse, at least I mattered. With the affair, I didn't matter at all. Sophia mattered. In fact, the absolute bottom of all of this was two weeks after the broken arm when I said, "I want you to care about me more than Sophia" and his reply was "If it wasn't for the kids, I'd have been long gone."

Now I must do my part to make my time with him enjoyable, but I won't justify allowing our kids to witness this anymore in the false belief that I should stay married no matter what.

Cherished

Cherished you are the first one here I have saw put a condition on 15 hr per week....or else separation for a week. Cherished, he is already always gone for a week, weeks at a time...I don't understand your logic on this.

I can understand that infidelity to you was more abuse in your mind than the broken arm. I think your H has stopped the physical abuse, but he remains uncaring. I wonder if he hates himself for the pain he caused you, making it easier for him to avoid, neglect, and ignore you. Maybe looking at you reminds him of the pain, and it's too much.

I do understand that you want 15 hrs per week with him, because if you don't have that, nothing will work. How can you have a marriage and never spend time together? How can you practice the Emotional Needs if you have no time together? How can he practice caring if he has no time with you?

Your children are very sad.

Maybe you H logic for wanting to keep in the marriage and do nothing at all is more of a control thing, still in itself abusive.

Lady

Lady,
At this point speculation about his motivation is irrelevant. Our children are falling apart, and my health is collapsing. Either he steps up to the plate, or he doesn't. I do think he hates himself for what he has done. He has told me he is concerned about his soul. It's like our 6 year old who accidently hurt her little sister and was upset because she felt bad, not because her sister felt bad.

Cherished

He just called to let me know that the world does not revolve around 15 hours and it is unreasonable for me to be uncomfortable for him to spend time alone with our son, who is having trouble (gee -- wonder why) because we've only spent 3 hours together. I just feel so sad, but I think what Harley's program does is flush out those who are willing to put in the effort and time to create a good marriage, and those who are not. Tom also said that maybe he should quit his job to spend 15 hours per week with me. I just feel so sad. I have made the decision to not be in a marriage of emotional divorce, and he is indicating that is the way he would like to live. Now I am forcing a decision -- spend time alone with me or separate. I have had to be willing to give up the trappings of marriage to see if he is willing to create a marriage. The answer at this point seems to be no. Wish I had done this years and years ago.

Cherished

Well Cherished I guess there is a difference then if he feels bad because of what he has done, but does not care how it has affected your soul, children, and physical health....Do what you gotta do for you and your children. It's a wonder he says he is concerned about his soul, and should be, we all should be. But... can't analyze things anymore I guess. Let Go and Let God.


Lady

***I do think he hates himself for what he has done. He has told me he is concerned about his soul.***

You are misreading this and twisting it to make it say what you want to hear.

Read it again.

He is concerned about HIS soul.

Not yours.

Not anything about you.

HIS soul and HIS wellbeing.

Ever read *Gone With The Wind*, or see the film? At one point, after Scarlett has indirectly caused the death of Frank Kennedy, she is sobbing and scared and *seemingly* remorseful. But Rhett Butler knows better -- he sees right through her and knows that she is only scared for herself. She is not sorry for what happened to Frank -- she is afraid SHE will die and go to ******.

That's not the same as caring about Frank. And your husband being concerned for HIS soul and HIS wellbeing has nothing to do with being concerned about yours.

And now that he has *again* flatly refused your demand of 15 hours a week, what will you do? Keep waiting for him to "make a decision" and "step up to the plate?"

Cherished, the power is all yours but you insist on giving it away. We just wish you would realize that you don't have to do that.
Mulan

Cherished, I'm retired military and Scot-Irish by way of ethnicity. Perhaps because of those I'm probably a little confrontation-prone. I preface what I want to say with that so you can simply ignore what I’m about to say if you want to. I like to think I always call spades shovels and I draw fire for that sometimes.

Cherished, I know this is a website dedicated to keeping marriages together. That’s what you’re trying to do, but sometimes that’s not the solution.

You’ve remarked a couple of times that your husband punched you, pressed down on your forehead, and broke your arm. You let him SPANK you in anger in front of the kids? What in the name of God…?

Look, for those reasons, you say he was definitely a candidate for anger management though you tried to tell people the opposite. Wrong! He should have been in jail, perhaps prison, for any and all of those and you know it. You are in an abusive relationship. Lady, you are the poster girl for a battered wife. You and your children are at risk and, in my opinion, you should end this relationship now. Perhaps someday in the future, he'll come around but there's no real hope for that right now.

Your husband’s attitudes and behavior have been established through the years, before you met him from what you say, and he is NOT going to change in order to save your marriage. Face it. No fifteen hours a week together is going to change him. He needs deep psychological therapy and he’s not about to submit to it. He’s way too comfortable with who he is.

Cherished, if nothing else, children of these abusive relationships are at risk of involving themselves in similar relationships later in life. Please don't let that happen. Take some positive steps soon to end this nightmare as soon as you possibly can.

Cherished,

A few questions for you:

At what point in your life did you learn that this type of behavior is acceptable?

How will you react someday, when your daughter is in an abusive relationship?

And how will it make you feel someday, to see your son treat his wife like this?

Will you suggest to them the "15hrs per week" theory? I truly hope not!

Please, for the sake of your children, call your parents! Go back home!

Another prayer for you,

Jennifer68

I can't post very often, but I have to tonight.

Get away from this man. This man does not love you properly.

There are other men in this world, lots of them, who will love you properly.

Your health is suffering.

Your children are suffering.

What are you waiting for? HE WILL NOT CHANGE.

You can do it. You will be so happy once you have moved on.

Please consider a new direction.

Cherished,

The things your husband said to you sound just like my husband. He is always complaining about not having enough time alone with his kids because he is spending all his time with me. Of course when he was having his affair he wasn't spending any more time with them. It is just a bunch of talk to see if you will back down. Make sure you work hard on spending good quality time together or this is going to fail. After a couple of weeks of making 15 hours you will want to add one of the other aspects of the Marriage builders program and he will find that to be demanding too.

To people who are after Cherished to leave her husband

I challenge you to come up with a plan that could save her marriage. Marriage builder principles are based on education and behavior modification techniques. Bad behavior is replaced with good behavior. In my psychology classes there were studies where behaviors were learned without the subject even being aware that they were being taught. Obviously, Cherished's husband has some very bad habits and is resistant to changing them. Also, in some ways Cherished may have contributed to this, That is where she is going to have to learn new skills too.

Another part of the Marriage builders phylosiphy is that love is both a verb and a noun. What does this mean? It means that if you act in a loving way the fealings will follow. So neither of them feels very loving. Marriage builders breaks the actions of a loving relationship down into many small measurable incriments. 15 hours per week happens to be one of those incriments that is very measurable.

As a Christian I have struggled so much with praying for change in my marriage and in my husband. I have faith in God and his power to work miracles. There are numerous examples of people being changed by God. The problem is with each persons free will to do what is right or wrong. So I believe it is possible for a (bad) person to turn around and start becoming a (good) person. I just don't know if my husband and my marriage are going to turn around. The most encouraging word picture I have is of an enginere changing the course of a river by digging channels or whatever other means. So Tom isn't being struck by lightning for the terrible things he has done. So, he is still a selfish jurk thinking about his own soal. At least he is still thinking.

Here's the deal - there will be no marriage building until Tom gets that Cherished means what she says and commands his respect. That cannot happen in Plan A, may not happen in Plan B - but it's more likely to happen there or in Plan D than Plan A.

Tom only wants a wife - a slave, someone to clean his house, take care of his kids, and have SF with - an unpaid prostitute, so to speak. Oh - and to vent his frustrations about how sorry his life is... But he doesn't want a marriage. He doesn't want equality and he doesn't want to be appropriately vulnerable with his wife. And it takes two to make a MARRIAGE. This has had the very best marriage builder - the AUTHOR OF MARRIAGE BUILDERS overseeing recovery efforts, and he himself has tossed his hands in the air and said the marriage is not recoverable - that TOM will sabotage any and all efforts to marriage build this relationship.

So are you a better marriage builder than Harley himself to say she should continue to allow the abuse on her self-respect???