So were you cheering for the Broncos? We live in CO so that goes without saying that we really enjoyed the game. But I have even better news.. after the game, my dear H asked if I was ready for bed, and of course I say yes, then when I come out of the bathroom, and get in bed, he's naked!!! Aaaaaaagh!!!! I about had a heart attack! Then we made love for the first time in months!!! I'm still so in shock and so happy and so hardly able to believe it was real. We didnt' talk about the morning fight, but could it be that he was just trying to show me by his actions that he had listened, in spite of his angry, negative reaction, he had heard and thought about it? Just like my cleaning up was my amends? Thank you so much for talking me through yesterday! It was so hard to just be patient and not freak out and just do something positive with my time, instead of just wallow in my pain. And the day turned out so much better than I ever hoped for! Thank you!!!

I don't do football, normally. Long story. But yes, I live in CO, too, and it was a wonderful game! My H said he enjoyed me watching it with him. This is something, because I make comments that could irritate--I quote the answers and question their hyperbole, point out how dirty the Patriot's uniforms were getting, wonder aloud about the players' feelings at the moment. Ack. I think I could be hanged by true fanatics.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm delighted for you, but you should be thanking yourself. You deserve it. Feel your H's love, know it for the fact that it is. You weren't wallowing in your pain--you were projecting yourself in the future (which is any moment other than the one you're in) and living through all those emotions and reactions as well as your present ones. Why you do that? That is asking too much of your sweet, human body!

Why do you think, "One Day At A Time" is a mantra for many, if it didn't have a critical truth at the bottom of it?

When you feel the urge to thank, compliment, adore your H, stop and consider what you need to tell your self..."Thank you, Self. You are open, receptive and of pure good intent. I adore you." Turn them inward.

Now if the Steelers could just win today...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

P.S. Thank YOU for sharing with me. I love it. I'm dancing inside for you!

bump

Just wanted to tell everyone my exciting news... we went in for the ultrasound today, and it's a boy! We were kind of hoping for a girl, but were mainly just happy that he looks healthy. The last few days have been good between my H and I, no fighting and lots of love. I feel finally as if we are actually moving in the right direction!

Happy for you and your news.

How is your standards list coming?

Wanna share?

LA

I bump because I care. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for caring and bumping! I've had sick kids all week and then finally came down with the crud myself, so that's why I've been mia for awhile. Let's see, where are we? My standards list is still just a wish list. I want to hold to these standards but seem to have a really hard time sticking to them. Mainly, not making disrespectful judgements, by assuming I know what my husband is thinking by his actions. And by trying to take his words at face value, when he tries to tell me how he feels, not trying to read between the lines. Also, working on avoiding other love busters, but mainly on that one for now. We've had a couple of good days and a couple of bad ones this week. My frustration with the lack of intimacy came to a head again this week, but I think I handled it a little better. Instead of screaming, crying, accusing him of an affair, and begging him to love me like he used to; I instead calmly explained to him that I am not willing to resign myself to a life of just being roommates, like some of our friends are. That I could never be happy in a marriage like that. He says, so what? Do you want a divorce? I said No, I want us to work on making our marriage better, like it used to be, I'm just letting you know where I am right now. He said, well, it's not going to go back to how it used to be overnight and that I need to be patient with him. I said I can be patient, but I need to see some progress. He said like what? I said how about you committing to one night a week? Just one night a week, you come to bed with me, instead of sleeping on the couch. It doesn't mean we have to have sex, just sleep with me and hold me. He didn't answer me and after awhile I left the room and went ahead with my day. He didn't talk to me all day until I served dinner, then he grabbed my hand, kissed my cheek and said thank you. That night he came to bed with me at midnight. No lovemaking, but at least he was there. Do you think I handled that better? It seems strange to me but it's almost like my cooking is the only thing that gets through to him, isn't that strange? Like it's the only EN that he will allow me to fill. I know I've got to stop LB before he will let me meet more of his EN. I want to know more specifically too what his other EN's are but am not sure how to approach getting him to fill out the questionaire. Any ideas?

Bump..

Just had a bout with the stomach flu myself. Ack. Sorry for bumping and running. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Great to see you back. I saw your other posts and know you're on the understanding trail full force. I think you handled yourself very well with a compromise on your #2 EN. Sounds like your H is prepared any day to hear the answer to his divorce question as a yes. Might ask him how big of a fear that is for him.

Also, the online flirting has completely ceased? Sounds like a big EN might be admiration. Also, his language in showing you his gratitude for your great meals. Appreciation and admiration are often mixed in my experience. One results in the same feeling as the other. Funny, huh?

I know when you showed appreciation for him coming to bed before it didn't result in a good feeling. Maybe a response of, "I cook because I care about you," might work? Also, did he have a porn problem? Do you have a keylogger on the computer? I'm just so curious, aren't I?

Please note that he feels you are measuring progress, have your yardstick out, and he's the one feeling you aren't patient. Doesn't mean you aren't. Might address that issue with not judging good or bad days. Might call them connected and disconnected days? My H had a real problem with being measured against me. I would read on the net, buy books, research and put a lot of effort out. Scared him. He felt run over and inadequate. I had to toss my measuring instruments for good. Has worked out well because now I'm surprised at the progress when it happens.

Reminder: The more you are focused on him the more you measure.

Thanks for bumping and posting, Sutherland. I was glad to ee you back!

LA

So good to hear from you La! I think it does scare him, all the tremendous effort and energy I'm putting into trying to learn about how to make our marriage better. I've learned to post on this site when he's not here and to put away all my relationship books when he's home. He seems to feel pressured, like I'm holding him up under a microscope trying to figure out what makes him tick. (which isn't really that off base! ) But anyways, yes I do have keylogger and nothing is going on. And he's 100% reliable on where he's going and when he'll be home, that sort of thing. I do think that admiration is his #1 EN. Having known him for 20 some years, this is a no brainer. But for some reason, he is very resistant to any appreciation or admiration I try to show him. If I tell him how much I appreciate his hard work for the family (he works 14 hour days, actually graveyard shift, so I can be a stay at home mom to our upcoming baby and my toddler) he gets grouchy and says I just hope it's enough to get us out of this hole we're in. If I tell him he looks nice today, he gets grouchy and says how he's never weighed so much and been so out of shape. If I say I think he's a good dad, he get's grouchy and.. well you get the idea. I saw some comments on another thread about a FWH who felt so guilty that he didn't feel like his wife could possibly admire or respect him after he'd screwed up their life so bad, and I think this might possibly be where he's coming from. In a lot of ways, he's harder on himself than anyone else could ever be. So even though I know what some of his other EN's are, he's only allowing me to meet his need for domestic support. So I guess for now, that has to be enough for me. I'm such a giver at heart, that I want so badly to be allowed to give him so much more! It's so hard to hold back, but I think that he won't be able to accept anything else until he can forgive himself and realize that flaws and all, there are still a lot of things that are loveable and respectable about him. I'm not sure if he's had a porn problem in the past, but I wouldn't be surprised. We had watched some of it together, but not very much, and I never found any evidence of him hiding it from me. We were always very open prior to the internet thing, and what few pictures and stuff that he had (pornographic nature) he never hid from me. Something changed in our relationship, when he started the internet flirting. Almost like the act of getting married flipped a switch in him, that now I was the enemy, someone to hide things from and to demand things of. His FOO was VERY dysfunctional as was his first marriage, and I'm thinking that perhaps without even realizing it, he slipped into this mold of what his unconscious mind thought marriage was supposed to be. I'm not sure I worded that to say quite what I mean, but it's close. This is some of the stuff that we are talking about in MC. Also about how the sexual abuse from his grandfather in his childhood could be a major factor in his reluctance to resume SF with me. Like he could have sex with old girlfriends and such as long as he was almost totally detached from them emotionally. But then to have such an intense and deep emotional connection to me for so many years, and then to finally add SF to that, that takes a huge amount of trust to allow yourself to be that vulnerable with someone. And now that between the two of us, we have violated that trust so completely (because I do take responsibility for my part in the damage done in the last few months) that it's a hard thing to work your way back to. Especially for someone who as a child learned that combining love and sex can be a very painful, damaging thing. Again, I've started babbling.. hope I'm making some sense. It's really too late to be up, but I try to stay up as late as I can so that when dh comes home at 7am, I can sleep in with him for awhile. Especially now that he is coming to bed when he gets home, instead of turning on the tv and sleeping on the couch!!!! (this is me dancing for joy!) I can't wait to see if when he has his 2 nights off this week, if he will come to bed with me at midnight or so!!

Ok, now I'm moping.. he didn't come to bed when he got home from work this morning. He got on the internet for a few minutes, then turned on the tv and promptly fell asleep on the couch. Not coming to bed until had gotten up for the day. So frustrating! Why do I put so much stock in just a couple hours of laying in the same bed with him??? Is it because my love bank is so low that something so small means so much to me? I just feel crushed, and hardly able to carry on with what I have to do today, whereas yesterday, because he did come to bed and hold me for an hour or two, I felt like I was walking on air all day. I hate this, having my emotions so dependant on his actions!! Partly may be because of the pregnancy, but still, I wish I could just throw away the measuring stick, like someone advised me last night. I know he hates it that I'm keeping track, without really meaning to, of when was the last time he kissed me, held me or made love to me. I guess what really scares me is that I am so desperate for affection that I wonder if someday I'm going to get a kind word from someone else, and suddenly not care if it means ruining what's left of my marriage, just because there's someone there who wants to talk to me, hold me, kiss me and yes, have sex with me. I miss romance so much, I miss complements, I miss so much of what used to be our relationship. He complements me on my cooking but NEVER says I look pretty. I asked last week during a fight, and he said he thinks it all the time.. why, oh why, is it so impossible for him to say it me occasionally?? I'm 5 months pregnant now, so feel relatively safe for the moment from straying but I really am afraid that if things haven't improved A LOT in the next year that I will be wide open. I don't want this to happen, I love my husband with all my heart, and I know I always will, but at some point, I NEED to feel wanted, cherished and loved in return!! I know I'm crossing a lot of bridges here way before I get to them, I just get frustrated I guess because my love bank is constantly hovering around 0. Like living paycheck to paycheck, one hug or one kiss, puts me in the black, but go a day without it, and I'm right back in the red. I have no reserves at all! Is there any way of filling up my love bank even a little bit myself, in a way that is loyal to him and our marriage? Ohhhhh, I'm so glad I can vent on here!! Otherwise I would be upstairs, love busting all over the place, insisting he instantly turn back into the man I fell in love with, or I'm outa here! I so hope I have the patience and fortitude to hang in there through this process!!

Still trudging through my day, trying very hard to not act desperate..

Okay, dear woman, time for me to scramble your brains. Ready?

You've slipped in your perspective and this is what it feels like. You're in old pattern again. You are focused on him, not you. That's why you are feeling helpless, desperate, at fault and unmanagable today. Headache and all?

Pull yourself two inches to the left, back to your standards. When you said you had figured out the LBs to your H, that they were your standards, your focus was still on him. Your standards have to match your boundaries. You're not in balance there. If you make your standards according to what your H feels, then what about other people? Your standards are what you don't allow yourself to do to anyone else; and what you do not allow you to do to you, either. Flip side is the same. You attempt to treat others in this way, and have to treat yourself in that way. Fun, huh?

If you aren't going to allow yourself to yell, disrespectfully judge, or burst out angrily, then you can't do that to yourself, either. You have to have in place what you are willing to do. Tell your truth inwardly and outwardly.

Now, here's the scramble part...you said something incredibly well. "that now I was the enemy, someone to hide things from and to demand things of."

You are the enemy of his addictions. He is addicted to distractions, conflict avoidance and intimacy. He is doing this, not you. You don't cause him; it is in him. You are absolutely correct in realizing this. Not something you can control or cure. He has to. Just as you predicate your reactions on his actions, he is doing this inside himself. You can only attend to yours.

Find out why you need...seperate from pregnancy, life pattern or anything else. What does each step really give you? Being held means...what? Affection, conversation...what do they give you?

Focus on you and you'll feel the ease return. Just like in making your apology an action, that was being in your power, and not relying on its acceptance or his reaction.

Now you get why people urge others to "Center! Center!" Used to annoy me. Am I annoying you? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(((((((Sutherland))))))))

LA

Yes, you've effectively scrambled my brains! I think I'm too tired to process any of this tonight, but I will reread and think about it tomorrow, when I've gotten some sleep and maybe my headache is better. I at least wanted to check the board tonight. Thank you for your reply and the hug, it helps me to not feel so alone..

I know that these issues lie within him and he has to choose to solve them, I can't force him or even help him until he is ready to do it. I'm trying to figure out where that leaves me. I don't want to love bust, partly because of his negative reactions when I do, but more so because I don't want to disrepect anyone like that, I feel I am a better person than that. I've been rereading the Love Busters book and feel very overwhelmed. No wonder we are in such a mess! It's practically a habit for me to make disrespectful judgements and selfish demands, and as a reaction to his anger, I can now add angry outbursts to the list. And he has terrible angry outbursts that usually scare me into submission, makes many selfish demands, is very dishonest with me about his feelings, thoughts, and past, and makes many plans with absolutely no consideration for my thoughts and feelings. (annoying behavior/habits) For instance, when it came to him taking this job, he decided, without even talking to me, that he would prefer the night shift, rather than the day shift. The reason he gave for this when he informed me, is because he eventually wants to go back to school during the day. So if he works from 5pm -7am, then sleeps till noon, he could still go to college all afternoon. When I said, well, I see where you are coming from, in wanting to go to college, but at the same time, that doesn't leave much, if any time for your family. And I really don't like the thought of you being away from home 5 nights a week. And what about the daycare that we had decided I would start? There's no way I can 7 children running around all day, with you trying to sleep, it will be hard enough to keep the one toddler we have and the new baby, quiet enough for you to sleep. Isn't there some way you could work the day shift and take some evening classes so you could at least be home with us at night. Or maybe postpone college for a few years until our younger kids are in school, then I could work more hours, and you could cut back so that we could still have time for each other and the family? His response to this was extreme anger, saying it was always about me and why couldn't I consider his feelings for once? I said I think I am, but I'm also telling you how I feel about this situation. Don't you want to know how I feel about it? He replies, no! If you notice, I didn't ask your opinion, if I'd wanted it, I'd have asked! A few months ago, this would have turned into a huge fight, but not this time because I totally caved in. I called him a few hours later and said that I'll support him in this if this is what he truly wants, and I know that he is trying to care for the family, through working so much and wanting to go back to school. And now the new semester at the college has come and went without him enrolling, and he's still working nights, and it is causing all the problems I was worried about. But what to do? Sometimes I just soooooo want to walk!!

You are such an articulate trooper, girl. Really. I read your other posts (otherwheres) and you have a great way with words. If only paragraphs could come into play. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"No wonder we are in such a mess!"

You're quoting my life. That's is the same thing I thought after reading Lovebusters. It is also why I continue to point you back to yourself.

You have such exemplary strength and focus. You really, really do. It is your blessing and your curse. Time to balance that. You're having automatic thoughts...you begin with all your LBs and then diverge into his. He's not here, Sutherland. I'm sorry, but only you are. It was the same way with me. You gotta pull back from falling away from you and into his behaviors.

If you won't take any of the reasons for this I've given to you before, take this one. Projection. Try this on for size. What you see in others that angers you is a sign you have that in yourself. Cull your own behaviors; the first part is awareness of them...you got that. Second, counteract the automatic responses with a replacement response. Hmmm. Choose your own. I'll share mine.

"You always say that!" A favorite of my old H. (No, I'm not calling him old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />)

I am aware that this is an antagonistic DJ. I think, okay, I see it, now what do I do with it. Has the word "always" in it, which is childlike. That reduces my anger a bit to know that my H was responding from a child POV. I change in my head to "I feel trapped. I don't feel heard for what I'm saying now." No punch in that. By this time, a moment or two has elapsed and I can softly say nothing, waiting for further elaboration. With your H not in this with you right now, that's all I have for you. Eventually, he will be, and you can say, "I hear a DJ. Could you rephrase. I want to hear you and know what you mean."

Stuff like that. It's not making excuses or assumptions...I'm working on stopping my automatic response of "No I don't!" which escalates something not intended to go anywhere.

See, 90% of marital disagreements are not problems. They aren't issues to be solved. This is what experts say. Spouses want to be heard, understood and accepted. Until this solidly begins (and one has to bite the bullet and just do it), then the rest...compromise, rule of protection, radical honesty, etc., can't take place.

Now, remember what began working well for you short-term? The pursuer/withdrawer comprehension. Your H feels a lot of stress and tremendous pressure. That does NOT mean you are doing it to him. He feels it. It is in him. His responsibility to work it out. However, he can feel your need and desire strongly and that may be adding to his feeling inadequate to meet your needs, his or anyone else's. This is usually the write-off for the overwhelmed. I can't do it all so I won't do any of it. I've been there.

Self-soothe with your own creativity and talk your brains out here. No walking, please! We'll listen! You thought about a daycare. What else? He didn't poja, changed your plans and didn't consider you. Got that. He is in no position or frame of mind to do that yet. He will be. Have faith. You both are charging spirits.

I'm back to you focusing on you, stopping your DJs (and I had to go back to where in my life I gave myself permission for them--good ol' FOO--and revoke it). Do loving stuff for yourself...congratulate yourself on each bit of domestic support, fine food, the way you fold clothes and sneeze like a dandelion. I'm not being vicisious here...I had to drag out my own kudos and believe me, I sneeze like an elephant! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> You can do this. With all the loving care in the world that you homeschooled with, do that also for yourself.

I know reading the boards can backfire on this. I used to get hot on an idea, see how great it would work in my marriage and hurt when it didn't, because I forgot my WH wasn't back all the way. He didn't feel safe, still felt suffocated and overrode.

Wanna start a gratitude journal?

LA

LA.. I posted this on a separate thread and just wanted to know what you thought about it?

I'm afraid that I'm moving into the withdrawel stage.. I don't want to, I want to stay in conflict, of course with the hope of intimacy someday. I want him to be able to keep putting in LB deposits, no matter how small or far between. (this morning we had a 5 minute conversation and when the toddler woke up, I went to take care of him, and H asked me for a kiss before going to sleep.. this was the first interaction in 3 days) But there are soooooo few depostits and so many withdrawels, mainly stemming from him not even being able to fathom the possibility of POJA, or spending 15 hours a week together. Maybe this is a DJ, by me saying this, if so, sorry, I'm just trying to read his mind, since he doesn't/won't/can't tell me. It hurts so much that I'm just starting to want AWAY from him. When he asked me for a kiss, it was hard for me to do. After months of being willing to do anything for a kiss from him, to almost feel revulsion was a huge shock. Is it just anger that is causing this feeling? I feel as if I'm starting to hate him sometimes. I want to cry so bad, but that solves nothing. I would like to approach him about filling out the EN's and LB's questionairres but I'm afraid that he will be angry at my responses and am pretty sure that he won't fill out either one. I guess I won't know unless I ask. I had planned on trying to have a calm, rational conversation with him today, about how if we want to improve our marriage, we can't just go to a MC once a week and expect him to fix it. WE have to do the work.. we have to apply his suggestions. The counselor had been trying to help us learn to "fight fair", by looking for comprimises, and the welfare of each other, not just our own viewpoint. The last few discussions we've had (one about lack of SF, and the other about him making my daughter cry by teasing her) I've actually had the sheet in my hand, going down the list of steps of how to constructively work through a disagreement, and both have been nightmares. Him just screaming at me that I'm not going to control him. So this was my planned discussion for later, except that in our 5 minutes of talking this morning, he informs me that he will be working on his 2 days off this week, because he wants to put a lift kit on his truck, and doesn't want to be made to feel guilty about the expense, by taking the money out of our budgeted income. He did say "How do you feel about that?" Which IS huge, as it is the FIRST time he has asked my opinion on his proposed plans, so maybe he is learning a little bit. I was tempted to say, do whatever you want, you do anyway. But I didn't, I said how I really felt. Well, you know I'd rather have you home with us, we get to spend so little time together as it is, and I also think that you work very hard, and I think you need a break, and besides I'd worry about you going 12 days without a day off, considering you work 14 hours a day, and it's driving a semi, so you REALLY need to be rested. But if you are set on doing this, ok, at least you asked my opinion, thank you for that.

Things have went downhill from here even. I'm sitting here bawling, he walked out, I don't know where he went or when he'll be back. Yesterday, we didn't really see each other till almost 10pm, but then had a couple of really nice hours together. It wasn't really alone time for us as a couple, his brother was over and then the kids were here too. But we didn't fight, he smiled at me occasionally, and he kissed me goodnight when I went to bed at midnight. He finally came to bed at 3am, and held me and told me he loves me. I replied that means a lot, and then after a few minutes, I added, I feel more love from you though when you show me, when you make love to me. You were always so wonderful about showing your care and your love for me through sex, it was never "just sex" between us. I just wanted you to know how much that meant to me and maybe help you understand why I miss it so much now." (it's been 3 weeks) Then he rolled over and we fell asleep. He has been grouchy and cold to me all day now, and I've tried to just do my thing, not ask what's wrong, just not let it hurt me. Finally he comes into the kitchen to talk to me, and says I ruined the first good day we've had in a long time by saying that. Then we get into a whole conversation (heated discussion is a more accurate description) about how he will not let anyone control him, and wondering if that was my plan all along or what. I said no, it was not my plan, but yes, once we were married I thought I had the right to ask where he was going and to expect him home at night, that sort of thing. But I said now, that he can do whatever he pleases, I don't want him to answer to me in any way. If he comes home at night, great, if he provides a home for me, great, if he ever makes love to me again, great. But with any of these things, I only want if he loves me and wants to do it. I never want him to do any of them out of a sense of obligation! Then he goes on to say how he hates what I've done to him but he's trying to get past it and make our marriage work anyways. I said "what do you mean by "what I've done to you"? He said, by digging into my life, my past.. you had no right to look in my email accounts. (1 week after we were married, when I found his activity on the dating site) You had no right to look in my cell phone calls, and ask who Rhonda was. (we'd been dating for about 2 or 3 months, and when borrowing his phone, noticed a lot of calls to her. then I really started to get suspicious when his sister, mom, and people at his job told me a girl named Rhonda had hung out with him all last weekend, when he told me took his boys skiing. His mom was staying at his house and she said he never came home that night along with lots of other hints) So I asked who she was, he said just a friend, so I called her, she confirmed they had a sexual relationship. So in my hurt and anger, didnt' turn down my ex-husband's come on's a few days later. I had never told him about this, and we ended up still dating each other, and I never brought up what I knew about Rhonda until a few months ago when we were going through all this other stuff. I always felt terrible about that, because I did feel like it was wrong and that I was cheating on him, even though at the same time I felt like he had ended the relationship the weekend before by sleeping with her. But when I brought that up about Rhonda a few months ago, there was no remorse on his part. He said we weren't married, we weren't engaged, and that there was nothing wrong with him doing that. But even with all his reasoning, I still felt so bad about what I did, and especially after being on this sight, I felt like I should tell him, that honesty is the most important part of a relationship, no matter what the consequences. So I finally did tell him today. And I said I was so sorry, it was wrong, even though it was kind of a kneejerk reaction to knowing he had been with her a few days earlier. So now he's furious.. but I do feel better. Maybe that's my first standard for myself.. no matter what, I will be honest. It sure hurts though, to own up to the horrible things in your past.

(see a paragraph..) In the midst of all this, he did say that he hates it that I'm on this board, telling everyone our problems. Also, that why is this any different than the talking he did on the internet with those girls? I said, well, although there are some men on this site, I mainly talk with the women, and EVERYONE is there because they desperately want to save their marriage, not because they want to meet someone to date! But he still says he hates it when he hears me typing away, and he hates all the marriage help books from the library telling me how to fix him. Then he gets all sarcastic saying, no, really I'm glad you have all those people to talk to, and you have all those books, maybe they'll help you. Then he asks if I'm taking my medication regularly, and is there anything else wrong with me. Oh, I'm so mad right now, and hurt, and furious, and I just feel backed into a corner!! What does he want from me!!!! I can't talk to him but I can't talk to you. He can sleep around while we're dating, but I can't. I really hate this whole situation!!! I am so sick of this selfish, childish [email]b@stard!!![/email] He asked me if that's what I type on here, what an @sshole he is, and I said no, I talk about how much I love you and how much I miss our relationship the way it used to be, and a lot of the time, I defend you to the few on there who say I should just leave you! But now, I'm done defending him, he does just fine doing that himself. And I'm done expecting anything from him! Love, faithfullness, understanding, conversation and definately sex! If he comes back and wants to leave, I will help him pack.. and if he wants me to leave, I'm gone. I love him so much it hurts, but I can't take this anymore!! I really can't take this...

I probly won't be posting on this board anymore, because I've really, truly had enough. My husband says that I'm cheating on him, by talking to any of the guys on here, just as much as he was cheating on me by talking to those girls on that dating websight. I don't really think so, because I think that in any of my posts on here, it comes through very clear how desperately I love him and the only reason I'm on here is to hopefully learn how to be a better wife to him. But I'm tired of being desperate. I want to be able to give my love freely, to someone who actually wants it. I don't know if I'll ever find a man who'll love me, talk to me, listen to me, be honest with me and be loyal to me, but if I don't, then I'll just be alone. He told me since practically day one that we should never have gotten married and I finally agree. I'm tired of trying to hold onto a man that just doesn't want me! So thank you all for trying to help me out, and just for being supportive. Especially you LA. (even though you critiqued my lack of paragraphs ) I am glad your marriage is going so much better. Treasure it, every day, treasure your family, and love your husband. I miss mine already so much, even though he was never really mine. I know I'll be ok, for the first time in my life, I don't find death alluring as a way out. I want to learn to be strong enough not need someone to feel as if I'm ok. I don't want to settle for just anyone, rather than be alone. Not that my husband was just anyone to me. For what it's worth, he was the best friend I'd ever had, and I truly, madly, deeply love him and wish him the best. But.. what can I do? I'm not going to grovel any more. He's not confused or in a fog, he really doesn't want to be with me! And unlike some of these women, who've been married for 20 or 30 years, and then their husbands go temporarily insane, and have an affair, well, they have something to work back towards, the man and the marriage they used to have. Ours was never good. I got offended and tried to defend him, but you were right Pepperband, we should have just gotten an annullment, right off the bat. If a man is so unhappy with his marriage only 1 week after saying I do, that really isn't even a marriage. I don't apologize for getting offended with StellaKat though, because I know that I'm a good mother, and I have great kids, and I will never let anyone say otherwise. But that's another tangent, sorry. Thanks again everyone, I wish you all well.

Oh, Suther...

I don't know whether I'm laughing or crying. You made a paragraph (!) in the midst of such pain, anger and frustration--a funny, to me and a really cute reference to it in your last post, too. How cool is that?

I'm confused. You're not going to be here on MB because you're going to divorce the man who believes it is the same form of cheating as internet flirting on dating websites? I'm confused.

What a thoroughly rough, horrible day for you...and him. My heart goes out to you, along with my prayers.

"He's not confused or in a fog, he really doesn't want to be with me!" I didn't read him saying that, Suther. I read him saying he felt controlled by you, held accountable. That he believes you have the ability to ruin one good day. He sees you as manipulative, able to plan on ways to catch him failing, shine a light on his inadequacy, and keep him from his distractions, which numb pain, therefore, you put him in pain.

None of that means he doesn't want to be with you, nor that you really do that to him. It is what he thinks and feels. In one huge DJ, I might add. (Yeah, I hate to see the DJs fly between the two of you.)

Just because someone defines you, even at a high decibel, doesn't mean that's who you are. Only you can do that. Hold onto that. See how your reaction was to give tit for tat and you were hoping your tat was stronger, bit harder and hit deeper. If I were to say that you had purple hair and that third eye of yours freaked me out, would you believe you did? Would you feel defensive, angry and attacked?

I'm not telling you that you're wrong, luv. I'm saying look inward. My song gets old, huh?

My H and I were discussing this last night. The way we used to be. I said it was our inner children fighting, the good ol' tit for tat. He said that is what boys do. Something starts it up, and two boys try their best to physically hurt the other one so they will stop hurting them. It has no beginning, really, or end. Best case would be the two end up exhausted, so the hurting stops. But the belief that if you hurt back enough then the other person will stop hurting you remains. Retriggers. Continues. You know this. You feel this in your wonderful adult self that it is an unreal way of living. You have separated your children's fighting for the same cycle. I know I have. Right there, both you and H, same thing, only with words, into threats, demands, manipulation...anything to stop hurting. On both sides.

I perceived my H inattention as him rejecting me, which caused pain and anger. I told him how "he" hurt me (AOs, DJs and SDs). He felt the pain of guilt. He wouldn't show or tell his pain to me--whoever cries uncle loses, was his belief. I kept showing him my pain (which was anger), making him responsible and he would hurt back with silence and withdrawal (more rejection) because I was hurting him...same cycle. Exhaustive. Distancing. Disconnecting.

Last night, I thought, "If only you would have said I was hurting you..." and I stopped. That was the old me. I don't have a place anymore for if-onlys or what-ifs. He is willing to show me his pain now. His anger. His frustration. I know those are his; mine are mine.

If all your MC has been advising is fighting fair, you have a really sucky MC. Communication and ownership, Suther. It's a great place to start, with the goal to be safe for each other. Safe for ourselves. You were attacked today, and so was your H. No safety there. You weren't best friends for most of your lives because you weren't unsafe for each other.

LA

(((((Sutherland)))))) (((((((Sutherland's H)))))))

Wishing you were here.

LA