I posted this on in-recovery and todd(H) thought I might get more feed back here. So...

A quick run-down of our situation. Some of you may know...

I am Cruise gone bad. My H is Todd 1967. Our story goes like this:

9 years ago I had a 2 night A on a cruise that I was on with my mom. No my mom knew nothing of the events. I made a really bad decision to NOT tell my H. I am a Christian and what I did was so against everything that I believed and was taught. I was having a really hard time dealing with what I did...that I didn't deal, with it. I buried it, hoping it would go away and die. Long story short...almost 2 years ago (Feb) I left H because I thought our M had turned to crap (he felt differently)and I was tired of dealing with it. At the time I felt like this was the only way to get his attention. In our attempts to get things together again, he had asked some questions about the cruise (he know some of the details but not all, something in him was not settled about the whole thing)so I knew that if we were going to have a really happy M that I needed to come clean about everything. So I did...we are now almost two years into R and this is where we are:

-he is still on the fence about wanting to be M to me
-not sure he loves me
-has not forgiven me

Here are some of the things I have done to try to help:
-gone to and continue to go to the MC and IC (he does too)
-read books on the subject
-been here on the website reading and learning
-written done the events to the best of my memory (it was 7 years after the A)
-I have really been working on some things that he has asked (SF, honesty, talking to him and not keeping things in, taking care of some real issues with my family...and many more)
-Several times a week I leave messages at his work (before he gets there) saying sweet nothings
-and many more

BLAH, BLAH, BLAH!!! Please do not think that I feel like I have done all there is to do. I don't feel like that at all...I now know that even in a perfect M (no such thing) that there is work involved all the time to keep it there. I feel like I have done several things and have really tried to listen to him and work on what he needs. The problem is...he doesn't know what those needs are. So it makes it difficult to know what to do. Our MC says that he is emotionally unavailable to me. This is not something since d-day. He has always been this way.

I am not posting in any way to be negative toward Todd. He has grown and changed as well. Mostly for the betterment of our M. He still has bad times and I know that the roller coaster will continue for as long as it needs too.

If there is anyone out there who can give some advice on where I ought to go next? I would be so grateful. You see I want nothing more then to be happy with Todd. But I have to be with a Todd that wants to be with me. How do I find him if he is there??? And how do I know if I have lost the battle for good???

Thanks for listening,
Cruise

Have you two read *Surviving an Affair*??? I think that would be the best place to start.

There are a lot of former WS's on here, and I'm sure one will post to you soon, but I know how frustrating it is to post something, see that 10 thousand people have read it, yet no one has replied to you.

Be proud of what you've done so far, and I don't know about a MC that is saying that your BS is emotionally unavailable to you.....even if it has *always* been that way, it would be almost a definite now, he's probably shutting down to keep from getting hurt again.

For what it's worth, if he's even entertaining the idea of staying married to you, I think you have a great shot at making this work......but it will be work.

Good luck and God Bless,

-Caren

(**Maybe also look at Mortarman's Roles of husbands and wives)

You should join in on the FWW's thread currently at near the top of the GQII board (you probably already have).

I've read your same story many times. I've seen todd1967 here I just don't recall if I posted to him or not. Though, the story doesn't ring a bell. I'm a '67 baby too.

Advice: I know that my wife posting on MB (she was here first then I followed) has really assisted our recovery. Just discussion the problems here in the 3rd person has really benefitted our marriage and made us appreciative of what we've got. In fact, there's a new poster here tonight that could probably use your wisdom (though she's been pretty beat up tonight so please give it a couple days)...anyway, she is determined to not give her BS anymore of the truth about her PA other than it was a EA with a kiss or two. Your insight into the issue may be enlightening and if and when your husband reads it he can understand you a little better and perhaps post as well. Then you guys are using your bad experience for good. The silver lining if you will.

Anyway, you've been here longer than me so you know a lot already. Welcome back.

Mr. Wondering

* too late to proofread...sorry

I'm just curious. Did you figure out WHY? Have you put safeguards in place so that it will never happen again?

todd here...


I would say that Cruise has NOT discovered the "why" of her A. There are many factors that obviously played a role, but she can't pin that down. I don't know that Cruise has put any "safeguards" in place, per se. It's just that she does not really have those kinds of opportunities owing to her choice of jobs (teacher) and general lifestyle (rather spend her time with family than out with friends). Several years ago she did have prime opportunity with a friend of ours (out alone with him at night in his car and he is a flatterer; the same trait that hooked her with OM), but swears nothing took place -- I am 90% sure she is telling the truth, but I just can't be sure anymore.



You hit the nail on the head Caren. I know there are issues from my past (I am trying to discover) that molded me into the "silent, stoic type". I have never been without emotion...I just don't show it like the "average" person would. Let's say I'm far left of the centerline -- in this context Cruise (and her entire family) are solidly right of the centerline. Her perception of my emotional "availability" is certainly skewed, but not entirely without merit (hope this makes sense). Fast forward to the present...I am most definitely holding back for fear of being hurt again. While I may appear "strong" on the outside, I have always had the soft core of low self-esteem issues. Now..."why" do I hold back? Another question I cannot fully put into words.

I know Cruise wants desperately for things to work out. She wants to put it all behind us and build a great marriage. That all sounds good and worthy. I "want" that too. However, I am just not there yet. I have discussed on these boards before (and have the bruises to prove it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />) how I have a core belief in justice. This one is still unsolved, even with the C -- how do I abandon a belief that is a keystone in defining "who I am" without destroying myself in the process? I'm working with the C to try to slowly shift (without a total break) until I reach the point where I can abandon justice without abandoning myself (deep stuff, eh?).

Todd

Todd, I just posted in your Recovery thread. I knew your reasoning for holding back is "justice", punishment toward your wife. God does not want you punishing your wife. How would you like God to punish you for 2 years every time you sinned? Your idea of justice for her is what is keeping you in bondage. I know I felt the same way as a BS. I was being deceived to think it was my place to punish my H. When I let go of that deception, I was free to forgive him.
God corrects, not you. You are to love her, forgive her. She is forgiven by God, forgive her as Christ has forgiven her and you will be free to be happy, and begin a real recovery. Forget the past Todd, many counselors will keep you in the past. It's not necessary to be in the past with Christ. Shut the door on the past. Philip 3:13-14.

Message here to Forget the Past....
http://www.ccc.org.au/default.asp?page=MCarchiveservice


Blessings,
Lady

Well Todd, I hope you can abandon justice (thinking your wife needs punishment, and 2 yrs of it). And I hope you can abandon yourself because it's not all about "you" in this life. May you decrease, and Christ increase.

Get back to church and the Word and get a better perspective.

Cruise, I'm sorry that your H has made you feel that you are not worthy of his forgiveness.
You have done your best.


Blessings,
Lady

This is so not good Cruise. The same guy that wants so much justice, hasn't been doing his part any way. Maybe a little pruning would do some good, sounds like the "stoic" needs some fruit. LOVE! Without it he is nothing, clanging symbols, keeping a record of wrongs, boastful, to proud to forgive...blah blah blah... etc....etc...

Lady

Well, I completely understand why Todd feels the way he does. I will pray that the two of you go on to have a wonderful marriage, not just sticking it out to stay together.

My problem is that you had an affair in a very short time span (and with mom along, YIKES!). My WH had an affair that happened over a 6 month time span. I can understand that a little better. He and the OW grew to be friends, and then lovers.

You still haven't figured out WHY. So if I were in Todd's place, my thinking would be that you could even have an affair over the weekend. As for safeguards, what would they look like? That one stumps me. The usual having no close male friends stuff doesn't seem to fit your situation, because your affair shows that you didn't need to know the affair partner.

The other thing that bothers me is that you kept the affair a secret for many years. I would be wondering what other secrets you kept.

Keep in mind that I'm a BS who is getting divorced. I hope that my post doesn't make you feel bad, as that is not my intent. I'm trying to let you see how your husband might feel, so that you can figure out how to overcome this. And sending little "sweet nothing" notes isn't going to do it.

Cruise & Todd:

Here's something Nottoday wrote on one of my threads...


NT's situation is similar to yours in that his wife hid her affair from him for many years. I think it was 10 years after the affair ended that she finally told him.

The point is... when you withhold forgiveness, Todd, you are punishing YOURSELF as much as you are punishing Cruise. IMO, you are punishing your innocent children as well. This can't be a good situation for anyone in the family. And this has been going on for two years now? How long do YOU want to live like this?

It only took my husband a few days to "come to terms" with my affar. And it only took him a few weeks to "completely forgive" me. Now, I know that's way faster than most. But the point is, we still have a lot of work to do to build the kind of marriage we want. And we don't want to spend one more minute than necessary on the more painful parts of that process. We're willing to do the work, but we're not willing to wallow in the pain. We feel as though we have already wasted too many years of our lives and our marriage in a half-miserable, half-numb funk. Why waste another minute?

Todd, you say you're holding back because you don't want to get hurt again. But can't you see that BY holding back, you're hurting yourself anyway? Not to mention the rest of your family? For your own sake, forgive your wife. As my DH said to me -- ON D-DAY NO LESS -- "One bad deed does not define a person."

Cruise, I'm not sure what I can say that would be helpful. I guess just keep doing all that you're doing to meet Todd's needs and show him how much you love him. Keep working on yourself, and on resolving whatever issues you have that allowed you to do what you did. But how much longer do you wait for Todd to get off the fence? I don't know. To be really, brutally honest, I don't think I would have made it past the one-year mark. But that's me.

--SC

Don't mean to threadjack - but SmartCookie - if you think your husband came to terms with your affair in a couple of days, and forgave in a couple of weeks, you're probably mistaken.

ladysheep:

You are apparently of a different world-view than me. I am not doing a good enough job explaining what I mean. In short, it is not about "punishment" -- it is about my deeply-held belief in consequences. I am not trying to carry out "punishment" -- punishment is for God.

You say you hope I can abandon justice. For me that is like asking you to abandon church. How easy would it be for you to "let go" of the concept of church? I'm not saying give up a belief in God, mind you...just that you give up church. Would that be an easy thing for you? If not, why not (and please don't go into a religious discussion - that misses the point)?

So, would 2 years be enough time for you to abandon church? What if at 2 years you still struggled with giving up something so ingrained in you (I'm assuming that church is ingrained in you...if not, then you will not understand what I mean)? Would you give up on this "letting go" and start attending church again? If so, why?

I get frustrated that many do not understand that this concept of "justice" is ingrained in me. It is an integral part of my soul. Those who urge me to just "give it up" do not yet have a clear understanding of what I mean when I say this. Those are the ones who belive it is a bad trait and must therefore be "given up". I am just not doing a good enough job explaining this.

I'm not trying to run you off, LS! I really do struggle with this and am seeking help (from C and here) to understand it. I see two outcomes: 1) I learn how to carve out this piece of my soul without destroying the whole soul, or 2) I recognize that Cruise's action leads to the consequence of divorce and accept that it must be so.

Todd

Cruise, please come join our FWW thread. We are helping each other with many things including examining the whys.

Todd, just curious...what would justice look like to you?

i don't understand todd. and i would really like to, but i just don't. if having an affair means divorce, why are you not divorcing her. have you had sex with her since d-day?? with your views, is that not wrong then?

Smartcookie -- You wrote

I have heard this before (even from Cruise). I might find this easier if it had been "one bad deed". In fact it was 7 years of deception and lies. Nearly half our married life was a lie. That is not "one bad deed" as you put it. It was a lifestyle of deception. This is not someone I knew who made a big mistake. This is about someone I never really knew.


Believer -- part of my struggle is with the "ONS" with a stranger as opposed to a build-up with a "friend" culminating in an A. This has been debated before on these boards, so I will not go into that. Suffice to say that, for me, I could more easily understand the long, slow fall into bed with a "friend" than the immediate jump into bed with a stranger.

Todd

does she continue to put herself in a situation, like the cruise or the time out with the male friend since d-day has occured??

if not, that is a safeguard. keeping yourself out of potentially bad situations is a very good safeguard.

Todd, are you saying her deceptions undo any good she contributed to your life and family? I don't buy that. I too lied to my H for a long time and he just found out over a year ago. He has come to terms with my deception and I think he would tell you that I have worked hard to redeem and change myself. Mine was a 2 year A btw. Has cruise done IC to explore what allowed her to have the ONS?

Believer,
I know it's highly unusual, but it's not completely unheard of either. Just ask Nottoday. I think Mr. Wondering also forgave his wife pretty quickly. And it fits with my H's usual MO -- very quick to process information and make decisions. I'm not saying there won't be triggers. I'm not saying he'll never again flinch at the thought or mention of what happened. But I can tell you -- judging from his actions as well as his words -- he has forgiven me.
--SC

FF:

Not at all. But this isn't a scale to balance, either.

I don't live in California, but followed the Tookie Williams story as I'm a news junkie! I am of the belief that the execution was right even though he did great things from behind prison walls. One had nothing to do with the other. The consequence of his crime must be paid. The consequence of his good works in prison are different -- perhaps manifested in a child staying off drugs, or a fellow prisoner soon to be released that will change his life for the good. One consequence does not cancel out the other.

In our case, there are (and continue to be) severe negative consequences to Cruise's choice. However, she has been a great mother (for example) -- the consequence of that is that people are regularly commenting on how well-behaved our children are. But those consequences are un-related.

I agree with the concept of consequences. However, who set the concesquences?

Is there no process in place for redemption and forgiveness?

Do you have a list made with what each act she committed and what the consequence for that is?

Adultry: Divorce
Lies: ?
Deception: ?

If the consequence for adultry is divorce, do it and you can both move on to a new life - you with a feeling a fulfilled justice and her with a feeling of debt paid.

Do you think she has not faced consequences for her actions? She hurt you, her relationship with you, your marriage, and I have a strong feeling she is hurt herself. I mean from her actions, too.

Even if you commit a crime (ans yes this is a crime against your marriage) there are consequences, you face a judge and jury, you pay your debt. What will it take for her to face justice and pay her debt? Do you even know?

If she doesn't know, then basically she is sitting in a cell waiting. Is that helping?

Forgiveness is not easy, but I see it as a choice. I chose to forgive my FWS fairly quickly. Yes, I still have triggers, it is not forgotten. Kind of like a criminal record. It is there no the record, but the debt is paid.

What does she need to do to pay the debt?