Hi Cruise and Todd,
I've been wading through a similar situation lately, and just now found time to read through yours. I've been pointed in this direction many times, and now see why! I don't want to mess up your thread with my story, but will simply say I had a 6 month E/P A with a neighbour which ended in Sept. I've been struggling horribly with the guilt, remorse, etc., and could have written some of Cruise's posts myself. My H is also huge on justice/consequences (is a police officer!), and in many ways sounds similar to Todd. The 2 big differences between you and us is that my A was primarily an E one, and that I haven't told my H about the physical part of it. I told him about the EA and kissing (Mr.Wondering was probably talking about me in his earlier post. My whole drama is in the recovery section and a thread here that Dorry started). He has been having a hard time with it (understandably), and is definitely the "silent" type (JL and I have had many discussions about this!). He seems to be willing to make our marriage work, and is trying to get past it. Todd, I know I've been sent to this thread because almost all MB participants believe in RH and believe that if I don't tell all my marriage is doomed. I'm sure they think seeing the pain the two of you are in will convince me of the need to disclose now, before 10 years has gone by. Knowing how much you seem to be like my H, reading your posts has made me more determined than ever to keep silent! My BIG, HUGE, MAY-MAKE-OR-BREAK-MY DECISION question to you is this: are you refusing to forgive Cruise and work on your marriage, as part of the consequence/justice element of your psyche, because of the betrayal involved in the affair, or because she was not forthcoming when the A occured? PLEASE try to answer me honestly. If this had played out differently and she told you immediately what had taken place would you be willing to forgive and move on, making a sincere effort to work on yourself and your marriage, or would you still be struggling with the same justice issues? I know this is a difficult question, but your answer means a lot to me. Your response to your wife is exactly why I'm terrified to disclose. I'll be honest - I think your wife must be a tremendously strong person to be able to go on as she/you are. If I told and H reacted as you have, for more than a year, I know I couldn't survive. I also know how deeply hurt he would be, and I can't bear the thought of doing that to him. I'm sure that sentence will be quoted and played back to me, along with comments like, "You already did that to him when you had the A..." and so on. That may be so, but he is blissfully unaware of that at the moment. I don't think anyone here can honestly say that Todd is better off for knowing, or that this marriage is better now than it was before disclosure! I'm going to put on my puffy suit now and try not to be defensive when you all start to hammer on me...

Todd,

I asked you for you to support your reason for your belief from Scripture. I think if I ask you to do that then I should do the same. So here goes...


Christ forgave us and died for us while we were still sinners. Jesus did not wait for the consequences to be paid before he forgave us.

S&C

BTW - I learned about my W's 2 ONS 7 years after they took place. I do understand what you are going through. Don't make the same mistakes I did.

S&C

newstart:

You bring up a key point that jumped out at me. If I understand correctly, you told your H about the EA, but not the PA. You are concerned that he would react to you as I have to Cruise if he knew the rest of the story. Let me just give you some insight into my situation that has not really been discussed.

Shortly after Cruise's cruise, I had an uneasy feeling about what she had dome with OM. By this time I knew she had gone out on the town with the OM while docked in the Bahamas. The OM also tracked down our phone number and called 1-2 weeks after the cruise -- I answered the phone. I questioned Cruise on several occasions and I was not an easy questioner. In the end, she "confessed" to kissing the OM, but swore on pretty much everything that there was nothing more.

Fast forward to D-Day. Cruise and I had just spent a couple of hours with an elder at our church attempting to pull the M back from the brink. The session had gone well and we spent quite a while in the car afterward talking. This is when I asked Cruise what really happened all those years ago. She was hesitant, but confessed to sleeping with OM when I asked her point-blank. I just held her and let her cry. Here is the start of a letter I wrote her the next day (2/13/04), word-for-word:

"I wanted to write down some of my feelings about what you revealed last night. Please know that I am committed to saving this marriage and making it better than we could ever have hoped. You are safe with me because I will not let this destroy what we are building. That said, please understand that this is fresh for me and I may need some time to sort through it. I am going to repeat some of what I said last night, because I need to write it and be sure I actually said all of it."

Later in the letter I wrote "I feel totally exposed to you and it is a great feeling. My soul is laid bare. However, as this is so fresh in my mind, there is still a part of me that wonders if you have 100% opened up to me. If you have (and I believe 99.9999% that you have), then I am sorry for continuing to question you. Please understand why."

The following day, we had a nice time out for Valentine's Day. I was confident we would work through this.

The day after that (2/15/04), Cruise went to meet with the elder who was counseling us to fill him on this new revelation so he could find the best way to work with us. While she was gone, I found the "bombshell" letter waiting for me at home. It was in this letter that she revealed that she had not only been with the OM, but had gone back a second night. This was devastating to me for a couple of reasons:
1) I had tried to tell myself that Cruise's bad choices were really more related to drinking alcohol (she's not a drinker) and perhaps the whole event was on the edge of rape. Going back for a second night left no doubt that Cruise knew exactly what she was doing and chose it anyway.
2) I truly believed Cruise had told all there was to tell. The slight disbelief was (in my mind) for the possibility that she left out some really minor detail because she thought it would muddle the story the night she confessed. The fact that she had left out a critical part of the story shook me.

This revelation really sent me over the edge. I won't go into details, but this shook me to the core like nothing ever had in my entire life.

Why do I share all this? So you can understand what the secret did to my M. During the 7 years Cruise hid the A from me, our M was never on solid footing. When Cruise continued to deceive me when I was the most open and vulnerable to her, that dealt a heavy blow.

You, too, have a secret. If your husband is anything like me, the longer you wait to tell him and the more you drag out the complete truth, the worse it will be for him. Please don't think you will have a healthy M if you choose not to reveal all. In my case, Cruise and I were headed for D at some point. Cruise's ultimate confession at least gives us a chance to save our M -- had she held back we would either not be married or would reach a state of "loveless-ness" in our M. For my $0.02, you need to tell him sooner rather than later.

Todd

Hey you're still up huh? You doing ok?

S&C

Hi S&C, I'm o.k., just conflicted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> . Todd, I'm taking the kids skiing for the day and won't be around much, but read your post and wanted to torture you once more before I leave. My first question was whether it was the A or the deception that you were having so much difficulty getting past. Thanks for the response.... but I still have the same question! Now it seems that it is the second time of not being forthcoming and the second "ONS" that is causing your dilemma. To me, it seems you are more wounded by her conscious decision to sleep with him the second time rather than the ommision of truth... probably just my bias talking! One last question: in you heart of hearts, knowing that your marriage was recovering with help from your church, and that you and Cruise were doing so much better, and things were looking hopeful... in some sense do you wish she hadn't told you, and in doing so put your marriage in more jeopardy than it had ever been in before? I need an honest answer, not just the politically correct one that comes off the cuff.

Cruise,

Your forgiven, no matter what Todd thinks of you. I see more clearly now of the treatment that you have endured at the hands of Todd. I believe Todd's unforgiveness is not so much a process that he needs to work through after "2 yrs" (Come On!)
but something much more painful to you. I believe he hangs your sin over your head as manipulation tactic to possibly keep all attention on him, to keep you unhealthily submitting to him. The reason I say this is his because of what he said when you asked him and his friends to clean up after themselves, and he said "You don't have polio, do you." And then no apologies afterward. If my H said something like that to me it would crush me too. I don't blame you for leaving the few days you did, but you came back and "forgave him" "without an apology." Maybe his lack of confessions and I'm sorry's taught you the same thing, and will teach his children the same thing. Is he quick to admit his wrongs, and say "I'm sorry, please forgive me." Or does your H just look at you as something to cater to him? You say if he divorces you it would be very difficult for him because he then would have to do all his own work, dishes, laundry, clean house, pay his own bills...He probably wouldn't like that would he.
Are you doing all the work Cruise, or does Todd help you?

He feels a consequence maybe one of you children doing the same thing you did. Cruise you are not some sort of Jezebel preaching it's okay to commit sexual immorality. Jezebel is the only one that was threatened if she "continued" in sexual immorality and taught it, she would be cast into a sickbed, and her children would be killed with death. Rev 2:20

YOUR CHILDREN ARE HOLY!!!!!!!!!

You confessed, you repented. I understand your fear of telling your H, because I think you fear him, and you should never have to fear your H. I don't think your H has really been there for you, or understood you, (no excuse for an affair), but that's part of his character. I think Todds uncaring and rude treatment of you, and his unforgiving attitude far outweigh anything you have done. His ignoring you for so many years is the worst, I believe, he still does. It's all about "him". I wonder what he thinks "his" consequences should be???? You must feel terribly lonely most of the time in your marriage and scared of what his decision may be, which is what he wants. God has not given us a spirit of fear, so just keep the faith, don't accept any fear. Be prepared financially if his or your decision will be to divorce. He has no ground for adultery. And I'm sure he has no problem having sex with you, with such an unforgiving attitude.

We have a merciful, and loving God, I don't know who Todds God is!

Brethren if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted. Bear one anothers burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ. Gal6:1-2

You have been restored Cruise. It's not Todd's place to keep you as an unforgiven prisoner shackled to himself. While you cater to his every whim and fancy. That is not marriage Cruise. That is not the way a H is to treat his wife. It sounds like you are doing all the work.
Todd is the one in bondage now. If he does not forgive you, he will not be forgiven. (Todd is worried about his soul, and he should be!!!) That's a scriptural fact from God our loving forgiving Father, and Christ our Savior who cleanses us from all sin by His blood that was shed for us.

I have forgiven my H, but it doesn't mean I trust him every day. But I do trust Christ to do the work needed in my H and myself. We are not perfect, just as Todd and you are not perfect, but we being perfected through Christ.
Bearing fruit is what is important, sometimes pruning is in order to do that.

I understand the feelings of not being able to bear children. I have a friend that was in the same sitch. She and her H tried for years, and she endured much pain knowing she couldn't. They eventually adopted 2 girls (sisters) that had been going through the foster care system for many years. The 2 girls were very messed up being thrown away by there parents, abused, and enduring many different homes. Now you would not believe the changes in them. God Blessed them, and God blessed those little girls with such loving parents. God is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think.
I am so thankful God gave you the beautiful children you have today.

If Todd throws you away, as those little children were thrown away. It's his loss. You are a loving faithful woman Cruise, and your calling is to those children that love you and look up to you for your love, care, and teaching everyday. It takes a special woman to be a teacher, and it takes a special woman to adopt children. You are that special person Cruise. Your calling is not to suffer and hurt at the hands of your H unforgiveness. You are forgiven by Christ. And don't ever let Todd make you feel guilty of your past failures again.

Blessings,
Lady

Cruise/Todd:

I have been away for a few days and ran out of battery on my computer the other night before I got my post posted. I read the threads since then especially each of your to catch up. JL has thrown some great advice that is right on point since last I visited. Listen to him carefully, he is as knowledgable as anyone here and probably more so than many professional counselers.

My post the other night was right after Cruise reposted Todd's list of circumstances leading up to the affiar and Cruise stated that she felt like that many of those items were being taken too lightly. The problem that I saw with Cruise's response is that it tended to focus only on how she felt, what she expected, etc. However, the more recent posts do seem to inidicate that Cruise is approaching this with an open mind and considering the other sides of her perspective. This is a giant step in recovery.

Todd, I really don't know exactly how to continue to respond to you. I believe that everything you have described and felt is sincere and normal for someone who has experienced this. I could have wrote many of the the same post almost verbatim early in recovery. I still some days struggle with the why...even though my FWW has been totally honest and I have confirmed with outside sources as much as could be without just blasting an outdoor banner stating that my wife cheating, anyone with information please call 1-800-hel-pme! for reward. I will tell you this. Even though I believe 100% now that my FWW has told me all the relevant things as she best remembers them and trying to hide nothing, there are still some inconsistencies in the whole story. I have discussed with my IC at length and she believes that my perception is that some of the details that do seem to conflict are in fact things that over the years my FWW has "rewritten" to allow her to hide the shame and guilt that she harbored before D-day. It seems to me that the chance that some additional details will come out later that will take you back to the original pain of D-Day is part of what is stopping you in this process. My best advice (one that I used myself) was to set a time where we were going to have our final come to Jesus meeting. MB does not like ultimatums and I agree with them most of the time. However, I was like you in that the deception and the duration of the deception were really much harder for me to move forward from than the actual act itself. Revalations from my FWW's escapade seemed to kind of dribble out for about three weeks after D-day. I like you believed most of the story but my gut told me that there was pieces missing. The big piece was that I thought that due to distance and other issues that my wife's A was a ONS followed by about a nine month EA. It turned out that it was a nine month LTA where OM would travel to our state about once a month. This revelation not only took me back to the low level of D-day but even lower. In my mind, I could see how that she had to continue to lie when the A was hidden, but once exposed and to make a major ommission of facts led me to believe that she was a fundamentally flawed character that could not be honest with me...ever. That would have been a deal breaker for me. After this revalation, I set a boundary so to speak that we have lived within every since and finally got our recovery process started. I told my wife that we were going to have a meeting on x date (about a week from that date). On that date, we were going to discuss any additional things that I wanted to ask her about the details of the A. I expected to her without reservation tell me anything else that I needed to know at that time as well. This was the start of true radical honesty for us. Some additional details did come out of that meeting but they were pretty benign. She knew and still knows that if something else is discovered later that she failed to disclose on her own, that would be the last straw for me because even though we had experienced much personal and couple growth in our R post recovery, in the back of my mind I would never be able to trust again. Part of the truth is just not enough for me. I believe that I have the truth as best as she can ever tell me.

I was also thinking about your position on consequences, judgements, etc. Although your posts have kind of been all over the place justifying the absoluteness of your position, I really think that I am starting to understand how that you are internally conflicted between how you react and who you are. Coupled with the devastation of any self esteem that a BS experiences after D-day, I am not sure your position is all that surprising. However, I think everyone agrees that soon in the process you have to find how you are going to move forward.

I wanted to share something about how the Catholic church teaches the cycle of sin and forgiveness. I am not sure that it is much different than any other protestant religion but even among Catholics the last part of the process is not well understood or remembered. They believe that just as one of the other posters stated that by Christ dying on the cross that he forgave not only all past sins by humans but also future sins in advance. The advance part is tough for most of us because we cannot imagine the complete forgiveness of sins against us before we even know what those sins are. But we are human and he was Christ so we should not expect to react the same. However, we should strive to become more "Christlike". In the sin foregiveness process, the Catholics believe that there are four parts: repentance, forgiveness, penance and then a forth term that I forget but is something like perfection or completion. Even though God has forgiven our sins in advance, he expects us to do our part. First, we have to stop partaking of the sin or at least make efforts to change. When we ask for forgiveness, he grants that but also expects us to do some from of pennance (praying, counseling, etc.) The pennance has nothing to do with consequences, rather it is tools designed to help us grow and sin less. The last part of this process is healing the wounds caused by the sin committed. Obviously, we cannot change what has already happened. We also cannot change to consequences of our actions which is often pain not only to ourselves but to others, ie. BS. To fully be forgiven of our sins at the time of our death, we are expected to have perfected the forgiveness process. In other words, healed the wounds that we caused with our sins. As sinners we can only help others who we have caused pain, we can't force them to heal or even to forgive. What we can do is acts which help that healing process for us and for them. Acts of contrition, acts of compassion, acts of love. In a nutshell, it is the acts of the FWW after the AE that is the burden (consequences) for them in their part of the betrayed healing process. If they fail to do this, the burden is on them, not on you. This is principally the concept of the Catholic church of Purgatory. If you die in a state of grace (with all sins forgiven) you will go to heaven. But some sins may be too recent or too severe for the completeness of the forgiveness to have occurred. That person's soul must "rest" in purgatory while that process is completed. I know this gets a little deep and may not even be on point with your situation, but hopefully gives you something to help you think through your process.

You moving forward with your relationship is not contradictory with your long held belief that there must be consequences with actions. The consequences though for those who betray their spouse may be at a level far greater than our human minds ability to comprehend. What happens if you take the position that for all acts there are consequences. My wife committed an act a long time ago that she will have consequences for, even if I chose to forgive her. I am a human and my idea of the consequences may not be the same as of the God who is all encompassing and all knowing.

NT

Ladysheep-

I am not sure that you are really looking deep into todd's posts. Yes, there have been times that he has treated me wrongly and there have been times that I also have treated him poorly. I am learning these things as I grow and try to re-build our M. Our MC is helping me to understand how my relationship with my family really skewed my thinking about todd and my feelings about what our M really was. We have had and continue to have some other issues as well. But what M doesn't?? To me those are secondary ones at this time and I am not willing to focus on those until we are at a point of recovery. But, I feel like you think I am a battered woman who simply will not see the truth. That is not so.

Thanks for the support and the encouragement though and I know that God has forgiven me. Some days I just need to be reminded. Especially on the though ones.

nottoday-
Thanks for giving todd what seems like some really good thoughts and advice without bashing him . <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

No Cruise, I wouldn't say I think you were battered. Neglected... yes. As in the things you have said (below) from your other thread.


I think in some way that Todd's unforgiveness after "2 yrs" is not so much something he needs to work through as much as it is his way of giving you a consequence by not forgiving you. Meaning he could be intentionally not be forgiving toward you as a punishment/consequence to you. What do you think?

Lady

Ladysheep- I do think many times that this is true. However, I know that todd would not agree. I don't know if he is "intentionally" not forgiving me to punish me, but with his type of personality it is certainly a real possibility.



Any thoughts about this??
Cruise

S&C:

I tried to answer your questions earlier in the thread. I did not get into the biblical discussion. I will make a limited foray into that kind of discussion below, but prefer not to get into debating the bible, as even biblical scholars can't agree on much of it. If I have not answered your questions aside from the biblical discussions, please ask again what I have missed.

* Begin limited foray *
Jesus and the moneychangers. If forgiveness is an instantaneous choice, then why did Jesus ACT and overturn the moneychangers' tables? He could have chosen to forgive them "70*7" times over and over again from one instant to the next. If one says he "lost control", then we have another problem. Instead, we can conclude that Jesus acted, then he forgave. Had they set up shop the next week, he could have acted again and forgiven again. Perhaps his forgiveness came immediately on the heels of overturning the tables, or perhaps it took a little longer.
* End limited foray *

Hmm. I think you are totally missing the point.

Jesus did not lose control. He deliberately prepared the whip - probably did that so he didn't lose control...

John 2:15 So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16 To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

The bible also says be angry but don't sin. - it is possible to be angry without sinning.

Jesus took action - what's wrong with that?

kahuna:

"Jesus took action - what's wrong with that?"

Nothing -- if you re-read, you will find that I do not say he lost control. Rather, I'm narrowing the discussion.

He took "action" -- exactly what I described.

Yes Jesus took action. He used the whip to drive out the oxen and sheep from a house of worship. He didn't beat the merchants or the money changers. He didn't even say they shouldn't sell that stuff. He just didn't want them to do it in a house of worship. His Father's house. His house!

I am sorry, I failed to understand why you used this. Could you please explain it to me.

Thanks.

S&C

Todd,

You seemed to skip over this section completely.


You did answer this though.


So what really is the problem? Is it that God hasn’t told you? Or is it that you may not agree with the consequence? Or do you need to see the consequences happen because you need to see her pay for what she did? That’s s a typical reaction to betrayal and deceit. I doubt that there is any BS that didn’t want their WS to know the pain we have felt.

If the consequences are God’s to deal with, why don’t you trust Him to handle it?



I wasn’t even considering debating the Bible with you.

If you are a Christian, the only way you can answer the question (about supprting your belief) is by referring to the Bible. Either you believe it and trust it, or you don’t. As Christians, the Bible is available to us for instruction and correction. Do you believe that? If you don’t, then the probability of you heeding anything in it that goes against your current “core values” is very low and people that are giving you information based on the Bible may very well be wasting their time. That’s why Foreverhers always ask posters about their belief in Jesus. He will not spend much time with someone that doesn’t agree with the Bible, because they rarely understand the value if that information.

Since you have called yourself a Christian, then we believe you understand it’s value and simply point to places that will give you the answers you may be looking for.

If you cannot turn to that book for answers; the book that also defines what a Christian is; there is a problem here.

S&C

One more time with emphasis...
Jesus and the moneychangers. If forgiveness is an instantaneous choice, then why did Jesus ACT and overturn the moneychangers' tables? He could have chosen to forgive them "70*7" times over and over again from one instant to the next. If one says he "lost control", then we have another problem. Instead, we can conclude that Jesus acted, then he forgave. Had they set up shop the next week, he could have acted again and forgiven again. Perhaps his forgiveness came immediately on the heels of overturning the tables, or perhaps it took a little longer.

In other words, you could say Jesus did not have to act, he only had to forgive. If he forgave immediately, then there would be no reason to act. If he acted, then he must not have already forgiven. I am trying to make the point that there was a time lapse between Jesus being offended by the moneychangers and his forgiveness of them. The forgiveness was, therefore, not immediate.

Hmm. What makes you think Jesus forgave them?

Woman caught in adultery - Jesus said "Your sins are forgiven, go and sin no more"

Jesus doesn't do "blanket" forgiveness. He forgives when we ask him. He paid the price 2000 years ago but we need to appropriate that by asking forgiveness.

Did the money changers express remorse/repentance? Did they ask forgiveness" No? Then Jesus didn't forgive them.

Has Cruise repented and asked forgiveness? You have NO biblical basis for witholding forgiveness. None. You will be turned over to the tormenter if you can't at least forgive. Whether your marriage survives this or not, for your sake you need to forgive. It's been 2 years man. Ask God to help you forgive. You will be causing peoblems for yourself if you can't do this.

Exactly BK mahalo,

Jesus give us a way to deal with believers that have sinned against us.

Matthew 18:15-17
15"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over.

16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'

17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

Then he tells us about forgiveness.

21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?"

22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.

Have you followed this in your process?

S&C

Bumping for Todd.

A bit optimistic I think.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />