[/quote] by BH:

Will it make him angry?
Will he cower away from the question?
Or does he say."How many orgasms qualify as good" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I can see why they ask this question. [/quote]

[color:"green"]I can't see why they would ask this question. Actually it was more of a ultimatum - you'd better be good or else. Why is not a respectful request???

I would think that the overall experience and not the number of orgasms would have an impact. If he is a loving partner and willing to please then anything is possible. Just as if I am compassionate and flexible, a man's "performance" isn't necessarily the only "yardstick". Especially after forty.

So if you are building a loving relationship and things aren't working, a request is in order IMHO.

These women have not built a loving relationship with Auto, and it sounds more like they are demanding or threatening.

V.[/color]

define what SF means to you?

that is a really good question. i am surprised we don't see it more on these boards.

Auto:
I am 51 y.o. and I have been single for 12 years. I have NEVER expressed to a man that he'd better be good in bed or else. The idea of doing that seems ludicrous to me. Dating should be used for weeding out those people that are not for you. When you have red flags such as this from women then count your lucky stars. At least they showed you their true colors before you fell in love with them. All of us are not that lucky. Just kick them to the curb and say NEXT!!! (I'm kidding. I would be respectful but firm.)

I agree with the post that said perhaps your criteria for women that you date needs to be re-worked. If you have had this experience with a woman saying that to you more than once then I'd say you are choosing the wrong women to date. You need to perhaps raise your standards? (I don't know, I'm just guessing.)

I think at my age, SF is one of the main reasons I would be interested in a R. I have a good job, my own home, a nice car, my own $$, I can take care of myself and I have a very active social life. A man to share SF with would make my life even better. If he's not up to par in bed then what would be the point?

I rest my case.

Hi Sunny,



I see it and would respond to it as a challange or a test of my confidence or self esteem. "Respectful request" is not in most peoples vocabulary unless they have read MB's. They go by the law of the taker and the giver without knowing it.



See how the confident response is the one that you are drawn to. How much more I know about you and your character than I would have known if I would have responded with either of the other two?

That's what the first few dates are. Two people probing and testing eachother.



It's the third date. There is no loving relationship being built yet. It's probe and test eachother time. If both pass these tests then the taker sits down and the giver comes out. IMHO

Auto,

"I rest my case."

You do? Without answering me? How about saying what it means to you?

LA

LA, I guess the next time it happens I could ask the woman what SF means to her and ask her to be more specific. But, I got the impression that they weren't talking about a warm, loving experience. However, at the time I was so taken back by the comment/question, that I couldn't think of a decent reply.

And I suppose I could tell her what SF means to mean. Not a bad idea. Not bad at all.

OK, if it ever happens again, I will try it. But, I hope to be more choosey in the future about who I date. I can afford to be, there are plenty of single women my age out there. And, apparently, a lot of wimpy men. At least in their eyes.

[color:"green"]I still contend that the third date is far too soon to be probing into someone's performance in bed. Harley himself says that he never worries about SF because when everything else is going right in a relationship then SF takes care of itself.

Texasblonde may indicate that there would be no "value added" having a relationship with a man that couldn't perform, but she never said that she would ask on the third date whether he could or not.

I too am self-sufficient, and frankly, if a guy weren't willing to work at pleasing me the way I would work to please him, then I assume that he only has his own selfish interest at heart and that this would apply globally to all of his acts.

Whether or not he has a selfish agenda can be figured out without asking him how he is in the sack.

Frankly BH, I can't figure out why you would find it desirable to be challenged by a woman. Does that build your ego to rise to a challenge? Are your confidence and self esteem raised to overcome some challenge?

I find "challenges" to be more like game playing than anything else. People in loving relationships don't play games with each other.

V. [/color]

Why is it a bad thing to look for - and ask for - what you want?

Being disrespectful about it is not good... nor is making a man (or woman) feel "less than" because they don't live up to your standards... but asking for what you want?... I think it's the ADULT and RESPONSIBLE thing to do.

auto,

You've run across some bummers...

If they are cruel about your sexual prowess (or lack, in their minds) count yourself lucky you found out right from the beginning. They could have been kinder about it, for sure, and I'm sorry you've been hurt. But still, they saved you time and energy dating them and then having your heart broken later.

Sexual connection is either there or not. There will be a woman who thinks the sun shines out your... prowess... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />... she will love you and think you're sexy and skilled. When it happens, it happens. When it doesn't, as you've found out, it doesn't.

I understand that the title of your thread is a little off-putting, and that you are angry at the DEMANDS some women put on you... as if it's a test. Dating relationships really are tests, aren't they? They're tests to see if you're compatible.

Maybe your test is to find a woman who makes you feel like a man. Not all women are ball-busting feminists... and not all feminists are ball-busters... and really, dating is about finding a good fit FOR YOU. And how else will you know what that is, unless its through dating?

Give yourself a break... see it for what it is... you have found what you don't like... so you can name what it is you DO.

PS: I rebounded into my second marriage, so I didn't "date" per se... but to me... sex is about how he makes me feel... NOT about prowess.

However, back in the 70's, I was a little promiscuous (blame disco)... and I can say that unless a partner were purposely cruel or treated me disrespectfully, I enjoyed sex, including the differences (skill, or lack) of the guys. Sometimes we'd click, sometimes not. Someone else may have clicked with someone I didn't... just differences in people, that's all.

And finally, in my opinion: A clutz in the bedroom is *usually* not just one partner's responsibility - it takes two. It's called chemistry.

Am I making sense?

I too have heard the same line as Auto has (maybe not on the third date, but close enough), and it does not mean this:


It has nothing to do with effort, and everything to do with, well, performance. It is not about being "willing to work at" something, it is being "able to do something".

Not to get too graphic, but it was made quite clear that the requirements have little to do with "effort" and much more to do with things like how well the man might, er, fit in, how long the man might "last", and how strong her orgasms will need to be.

I am sure that Auto, like me, felt like little more than a sexual aid after those types of lines in the sand. And I cannot even imagine what would happen if one of us guys proclaimed on a date that she better have boobs the size of Pamela Anderson's, had better be able to suck a golf ball through a garden hose, and, well, I won't even go further. Anyway, you get the point.

Sunny stated it perfectly in quoting Harley - when everything else is going well, SF should take care of itself naturally. This is precisely what is wrong with the comments that Auto alluded to - they imply that SF is the only thing that matters, and the "relationship" is nothing more than a fig leaf. Like I said, traditionally men would be crucified for expressing such an attitude to women.

When I see a woman come across with this attitude (and just to make it perfectly clear, some of them put this right upfront in their online profile!!), I know to steer away. I believe that such people do not look for relationships, but for flings. Not surprisingly, right behind this demand about being good in bed come the stated expectations that the man better be prepared to spend lots of money on her, because she is "worth it" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. My immediate mental reaction to that is, quite simply, "go find another fool".

AGG

[color:"green"]I just wanted to comment on this part. I've found that "first time" is awkward, embarrassing, clumsy, and often unfulfilling. I'd much rather have built the relationship so that I know that there will be a next time, and that things will click a little better and continue to get better as you begin to learn about each other. That has been my experience, anyway.

V.[/color]

Hi V,

How did I know that quote would come back to haunt me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Yeah, I never expected an orgasm the first time with each guy (thinking back to those disco daze)... but there was almost always some fireworks, because (ta da!) I loved sex. Now, gotta say, I NOW know that I was 'lookin' for love in all the wrong places' and using my body to do that... which is NO recipe for success.

Anyhow, you're right...

Ahem...

Um.

LOL OK, I see what you mean. I think my point was, at my age, companionship, finding someone that enjoys the same things I do, and enjoys the same level of sexual activity that I do would be wonderful to find. Someday I hope to find it. But I would NEVER tell a man that he'd better be good in bed or else. I'm very good at communicating with my man so even if the first few times don't do it for me, I'm sure I can help him figure out what does do it for me. After all, my orgasms are really my responsibility. Right??

You know, everyone keeps approaching this like there's something wrong with someone who is very clear about what they sexually...like there is something wrong with those women auto encountered.

I don't think there's a thing wrong with them. Were they right for auto? Probably not. Might they be right for me? Maybe...auto can send me their digits <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do find a woman who is forthright about what she wants to be intriguing and a refreshing break from that damn mating dance we insist on engaging in.

For someone who WANTS an exceptional sexual experience with their next partner, it does their potential partners a favor to tell them this.

Just think of the alternative...auto could've wasted quite a bit more time and money on these women only to find out they were sexually incompatible.

I think some are right that it IS a challenge to a man...a confident woman that knows what she wants and isn't afraid to ask for it is sexy as he!!.

Low

Yabbut, the way I interpreted what Auto was saying is that these women weren't approaching it in a confident, positive way. It sounded too confrontational.

A women can convey her confidence in many many ways. Wouldn't you say you can spot a confident (not aggressive) woman just by the way she carries herself, how she interacts w/ others and the way she converses?

I totally agree, but there is a way of doing it....what Auto described sounded rude and yes, almost like these women were bitter when saying this. I'm no prude Low, far from it, but I just don't see myself saying something like that on the 3rd date....he11, I'm just starting to get to know you. People are in such a hurry these days to jump into relationships, emotionally and sexually.....once again, where's the romance???

DW

I love confident women too, but this has little to do with confidence, and more with selfishness.


So, does a man who says to a woman on a third date "I'd love to bang you like a storm door in a hurricane" sexy as he11 too? After all, he knows what he wants...

If we are talking about people meeting on wildsexpartners.com, that's one thing, but if we are still talking about people looking for longterm romantic relationships, this just doesn't do it for me.

AGG

Surely there is a courteous, considerate way to let a date with "potential" know what you might appreciate sexually. Making a statement like you better...sets the encounter up like an audition.

Personally I like attraction, desire, & curiosity to be a part of this process. If I wanted mechanics to be the driving force I'd buy myself some kind of mechanism that could do the job for me. You know, I lie in a special chair, program in what I want touched when & away I go.

I'm sure those women auto had dates with will find someone "special" to be with. They may have to pay them but they they can boss to their hearts content.

They aren't wrong, or bad or any other negative thing we could come up with. Maybe they're just cold, bossy, & very particular. There's probably a man out there that wants that in a woman.

Probably because men DID that to them and now they not only want to do the same, but to talk about as well...


Bad bad...
Turning into men... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


They were just sincere... unlike some gentlemen who would not say it (loud)...
(Btw, you should put them in the same basket with men doing the same...)


I know some male conversations about the same... not so much 'behind'...


No, you are just experiencing consequences of "emancipation", that makes you less secure, for you got used to 'old ways' when men had lead...
Nothing personal. It touches most of men nowadays...


Some women would be happy to meet you.
Obviously not these ones.
So... try again, with different type of women...?


And it does, unfortunately.
I see less and less differences between women and men and some of male 'old good' characteristics are already lost...
Women feel it too, and they ask for it, just wrong ways... and everything goes in circles... i.e. downward...
On the other hand, you have to understand women... so many years (ages) suppressed, and now "free"... and every 'tranzition' is wild and contra productive, for both sides...

I'd be more cautious...
These women don't look... smart...
... smart women use subtle and more feminine ways to get - the same (and they always get much more)... and most men like just their ways...
even ending as a fool feels more subtle... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Personally, I'm more afraid of people hiding their desires and pretending, to better get what they want, than from open and sincere talking about someone's desires, plans...

PRECISELY!!!

If I were trying to build a romantic (and sexual) relationship with someone, I expect to be able to speak frankly about these things...maybe even on the third date.

Yes, it would be a test. Can I speak about these things without scaring her off?

Additionally, AGG, while your actual phrasing is a bit off-putting, if the relationship is really clicking, then yes, I'd find a way to frankly and tactfully communicate my desires. I think quite a few women would enjoy knowing they have that effect on me.

Now, as far as saying something like "You better be good at oral...or else", I think that's crude. But it's not wrong to hold those expectations. This potential partner could be a fast learner, given the chance and some tender honesty on my part.

By the same token, she may have similar expectation of me. If I know I'm inexperienced or lacking skill, I can do something about. It is also her right (and mine) to insist on experience out of the box if we so desire and not have to go through a "training cycle".

Sexual skill is no different than any other relationship skill. Would women continue to date a man who can't carry a conversation? Unlikely.

This not a man/woman issue. It's an issue of preference and finding someone compatible. Just because someone doesn't fit your idea of "proper" doesn't make them bad people.

Low