Post deleted by LLG

Post deleted by LLG

I had my oldest son out of wedlock when I was 22 yrs old...so there went 3.5 years...choice to either give up the baby or them...next time, a year, (xmas card) and then four years for emailing BIL...

Last disownment ended in 1998, I think. Maybe 1999.

I'm trying this on, like a BC...same as my adult life...betrayed child after being wayward child...and I owned the pain I caused, my choices, and no, I wouldn't trade my kids for the world, I just wouldn't. I had him in a unwed mothers shelter...was homeless for nearly two years...wouldn't trade him...only because we turned out well...for awhile there, during the teenaged years, I cried a lot for having been selfish (and I was) in keeping him...he could have had a much smoother life...maybe. Maybe not. I dunno. I just know that he's stunning, amazing and would be to me, even if he wasn't...

Yes, I would choose to send xmas card and not speak to BIL, not attempt to connect to my sister so that I wouldn't tick them off...

No, to giving up my son.

I chose. I got the consequences...why do I feel like betrayed child? I want to say, no more...enough...my mom says how alone they are where they are...no family left...no daughters taking care of them...and I do not say, "You chose." I think it, though. I think this is a consequence...I could not live near them...I am not that sacrificial anymore...I am not the martyr my mother is, though I tried for years and resented the heck out of my life...

There are natural consequences and there are logical ones.

Natural ones...maybe they are alone? (Though the have neighbors to help...just don't want to impose on them.) Logical ones...do I finally say, "Stop. I said this hurt me and why, and they said, "Did not." Then I said, "Okay, my bad...do it again and I will tell you again that I hurt--tell you directly, without waiting. They do. I do. "Did not."

I can't see a reasonable boundary enforcement here. I didn't even know I could have chosen to fly down in January, because I wanted to--I'm that lame in this department. I know I can give logical consequences, I just haven't given myself permission for it...

I'm too far back to being a child...I can only see the extreme.

Help me out...please.

LA

Post deleted by LLG

I believed my parents were enforcing their boundaries...and their boundaries have been about my behavior and choices...how I reflected on them...and they wanted to save the baby from a bad life...a baby she saw once in her life.

I had no boundaries. I was defective. I was letting them down, and couldn't find my way to stop letting them down...by being me. When I asked for the way back, what it would take, I was told that when I was a decent citizen, then they would reconsider. I asked how they were going to know that...hadn't lived at home since I was 17...and they said they would know. That was the four year stretch.

I was delighted to be able to speak to them weekly, write to them and not have them returned to sender...I was fearful of it happening again...I was careful, cheerful...I think I Plan A'd my parents for years...didn't think of that until now...and no, it wasn't a legit Plan A...it was me being meticulously who they wanted for a daughter...and they told me who they wanted...how they wanted me to dress, act, speak, choose...wanted me to divorce, find someone better, stop being white trash and do something with my life.

This wasn't me taking what they said this way...truly was stated and laid out. Always prefaced with, "Don't be so sensitive...don't take this the wrong way...but" and I believe this is of great benefit to me with others...I listen for this abuse...I know its contour and shape, how I've abused and passed it on...

I did want to be the good daughter and be there for them. I was terrified three years ago of seeing mom and sis again...after 20 years. I was reduced to mush in the house I left...I thought I stayed me, though a trembling me...and the tension inside me was enormous. I loved, anyway...and once that visit was deemed bearable, I went again the next year, too...at their invitation... (that they were old and didn't have much time left for seeing me), and I went again that same year...then sis couldn't make xmas that year, and they were alone for the first time and I promised to come the next xmas...planned for it...bringing my family and getting a hotel, rental car...until I got uninvited and sis went, instead.

Now, I don't want to go at all...not to be thought dutiful and not to see those two faces I have loved all my life...I don't care for their health concerns...my hurt is wanting them to go away! So, the shame is overwhelming...if I disown them, that makes us the same, doesn't it?

Not that I've been requested.

As far as them being separate...they made a pact when they got married to have a united front...no matter what one of them said or did, the other would back them up. No individual wishes were to be communicated to the children...one front...even as the kids became middle aged...one front. I asked after xmas, my dad, why? And he said, "we" when I asked how he felt and explained this pact.

See, "they" disowned me...but it was dad the first time, mom says...then she did, and she did again, because I was too much, too hard, she had too many other heartaches and deaths going on...so something had to go and it was me. She seems very guilt-ridden about that...the four-year one...and says she would have died had she not done it...

I don't know...I listen and repeat. I have no idea if she doesn't want me there...she says she does...hates that she has no family nearby to take care of them...that children just live their own lives, don't they?

I can accept them not wanting me. I can. I would welcome it now, I think. Their choice...their loss. I would stop having to muscle up and call every week...send the cards that won't get me disowned...and stop betraying myself for them...because you know what? I'm not awful...can't think of a reason why...and nothing is really left in the ol' love bank but guilt and a really sour taste.

Such joy this week...maybe that is why sis went? My son is home...back to where I can see him...he stops by every day...and they could be thinking, let her have time with him, don't be a drag, don't take her away...or not. I don't know.

I know that my mom thinks my son is a spoiled brat who needs a lot of discipline...and I drew my first boundary there. No one can talk badly about my son to me unless they have known him for 22 years. Period. LOL!

What do you think of that?

Thank you for being here for me. You have email.

LA

Post deleted by LLG

LLG,

When you doubt yourself...uhm, don't. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I just got back from my shrink and he asked virtually all the same questions. Thank you very much.

Honoring God's commandment is something in me from preschool...which includes honoring your parents...and I do that even when I am dishonored by them...because to enforce my boundaries around my self...is to betray them; not to, betrays me.

See how fast I can stop believing we're all equal? If I am unwanted because they don't want me...well, that's their choice. I've rolled around and around with this one, but what kept me spinning was not see my choice. As you said...calling, sending cards, etc...all my choices...not truly emotional blackmail, though I do fear them disowning me if I don't. Time to get that fear where it belongs, huh? Response-based choices. To be true to myself and to them, I would call when I wanted to hear their voice, know their thoughts, feelings and beliefs...and if they ever call, take that call...they don't, so I don't have to worry.

LOL

Just a quick clarification...no, they actually said those words about giving up the baby...wasn't me in retrospect.

And then, like now, I reacted from my hurt, not my adult self...I told them I couldn't...we have a history of giving up one another because we couldn't deal...couldn't do...no choice...haven't seen choice exampled before by anyone in my FOO. Anyway, I realized I am not having an appropriate response to this latest incident because I am feeling all the hurt from all the other times...piled on top of each other, at once. Well, that was a relief to know...and to realize, hey, I haven't done my part, LLG...I have not forgiven...instead, I looked at their choices as right and me wrong...nothing to forgive.

Shrink said there are three legs to forgiveness, biblically...that Jesus exampled...first, you acknowledge your wrongdoing; two, you commit to not do that again; and three, the other person doesn't hold it against you.

Well, that would mean them owning stuff, committing to not doing that same stuff, and me not holding it against them. Since they are heartfully sorry they had to do that to me, over and over again, with no commitment to not do that in the future, I can't do it directly.

I have to acknowledge their wrong (disowning, uninviting...breaking promises), know they will do it again and choose to not hold it against them as long as I do not choose to put myself in harm's way, either. Or I can choose to resent and betray myself by putting myself in harm's way. Or I can know that they choose, my feelings come from inside, (more along what you were saying) and be present and separate...just because they attempt to define me, doesn't mean they can...I have my part of believing, don't I?

Difficult place to be, very much like the whole A world...we can't be protected from harm, yet we have an obligation to not invite it in, either...a medium place, full of respect for self and others. I was ashamed in stating for the first time I wanted to disown them...not because I wanted to...and may still choose that...but because it was the first time in 44 years I thought that I had a choice...

And maybe this goes to those reasonable expectations you were trying to communicate to me...some are deep...a child expects her parents to love her...it's how it is done...and there may be no way to stop that expectation...just accept that we will not be loved in the way we want, and know we are loved, anyway?

He also pointed out for me to ask my sis directly why, when we had agreed it was my turn to take care of them, she chose to go instead...I sort of asked this Saturday, and what I heard her say was that I could come afterward...later...like back up.

Time for me to sort through forgiveness, not letting go or categorically filing it all...but truly speaking about and being aware of my need to forgive...for me.

"Or would that make you one who has resolved that though you strongly desire for things to be different you are aware that at this time they can't be?" I'm going with this one, LLG. I like it. I like it a lot.

As for seeing their faces...I don't know. Have to get this pain level down by half...mine...and then consider it. I don't even know if this bench warmer is going to get called in at all...tough not knowing though, each time my cell rings...I create resentment fresh all day...I'm very good at it. Ack. Lots of poison for me, huh?

I know I have automatically believed my parents--if they say, when they're gone, all we'll have is each other (sis and me), I buy that...when I have a whole family of my own, people brought together and made family by me and my sons...we built one ourselves...why automatically believe?

So, I commit to not validating them at my own expense...I matter, too...equally. I am going to have to use an image of my inner little girl, sitting on my lap, privy to any conversation we have, and think about protecting and respecting her as much as I think about doing that for my mom. Time for me to grow the heck up, I think.

LA

(I didn't answer about what it represents not doing what they ask...because that's unthinkable...so I'm thinking about it.)

(And you nailed it on the controlling...now I know where I get it from...and why...and how much I try to control them, though I don't others anymore...still there...still possible, if I do it to them, I'll do it to others.)

Post deleted by LLG

Sure helped to read what you wrote, think about it, and know what I know...'cuz feelings really do cover over what I know when they get high and hog my road.

Thank you for being here for me.

LA

Post deleted by LLG

Post deleted by LLG

If you've been reading back over the thread...did you see where I asked you to state transparency in this way?

"H? I have a problem. I have it in myself and I need your help. I feel fear when I call your work and you don't answer; I still trigger to calls you get on your cell phone when I'm with you...I fear contact and remaining second best or last place. You aren't doing it to me...I have to manage my own fear and I'm asking you, that until July, you could keep me more informed on where you are, what our thoughts and feelings are...and know that this isn't you being suspicious, but my problem, coming from inside me. I know I'll get better and better at it...I felt I was and then I slipped and felt guilty for making you feel like a suspect...and I know I can't do that. Not really. I respect this is like a gift I'm asking for. I have a real problem with fear, and this is only part of it. I appreciate you very much."

I did this, as I said...I owned this as mine, and I told my H each time I felt that fear pulse..."That was a little current when I heard your cell ring...and flashed back." He changed the ring tone. He did it from kindness, not by request. Now, this was after they no longer worked together...got better and better...culminating in last Christmas' true gift, when he said he didn't choose to go to the managers' party if it meant my being fearful...I asked what we would do if she was there...and he said, "We'd get a call and have to leave right away."...given that choice, my fear went down, and we went...see how it is our (yours and mine) fear, not coming from them? Our power. Knowing there was action to be taken, that we were in it together...made all the difference.

Have you said that to H? "I know we're in this together." You may not know that...more O&H, maybe? "I fear you see me as a doormat, someone willing to take you back, because I am desperate...like I have no other choice. I want to see us in this marriage together...that's my dream...getting through the really tough times and fully feeling the good ones, because of it."

You have lots of fear...and not all come from marriage...

"I fear being used."
"I fear looking stupid, bad or wrong."
"I fear being lied to--and believing it."
"I fear not being good enough to be loved."
"I fear feeling pain and anger."

These are great to share...without expectation...the knowledge is within you, along with the pain...you're not asking for a cure...see?

Sharing is intimate because you are actually facing a fear when you share...the fear of being known and not belonging. The more you hold that fear, acknowledge it, and share, anyway, the more you teach self that you are worth sharing--you make your place in the world and are worth being known.

Yes...handing over all passwords, accounts, websites...you can do this...your choice. Do not do so if you are giving to get...do it to hold yourself accountable...not a backdoor into holding one over on him.

Would you trust me enough to believe when you do these things, for you, about you...your fear, anger and pain lessen? The need for control, that automatic, age-old response, tapers off...reducing pain, anger, resentment...before they start?

How are you speaking to yourself when you go back and read? How gentle are you being with your thoughts, the voices in your head and your heart?

As to deleting...uhm, NOOOOOO! LOL Honesty is this..."This is what I said. I did it." Own it and know what you've learned...no worries. You are you...fully. Did you check out the Own All Your Villagers thread I have going? Amazing to me. Really. You're not alone, LLG. Truly.

You BOTH have this mindreading/assumption thing going on and a desire for it. Can you see his tit for tat, his "what you do and I do have to match" idea in marriage, saying he holds you to his standards? If he doesn't do it, you shouldn't it? This isn't far away from POJAing...just that the perspective is skewed...you live to your own standards and he, to his...then there are "the marital standards" you both agree on. Four rules of marriage standards.

How many times can I type standards, huh?

To update you...my folks and sis called last night...very odd...Dad said, "Hi there...thought we'd call you to give you a progress report...wait, I'm gonna get everyone on the phone" and I waited...and my sis popped on, she said, "To say Hi while Mom made coffee" and then popped off and Mom and Dad were on at the same time...Mom said how she was doing, feeling, etc. and inserted a "Well, we all screw up and need forgiveness and we should all forgive one another, don't you think?" and then Dad said how much they appreciated sis there, and how maybe next time, someday, maybe I could come down...and I answered maybe. They were strident with the ILYs...always have/always will stuff, including "Don't you know that?"

I wasn't O&H, couldn't form a sentence, except to encourage Dad to walk more...he sounded so weak, still battling his lungs filling up after two weeks...and that was it. I listened, didn't understand, didn't probe or clarify and did not state that this had been my turn...because, well, you know...fear. I didn't cry, was mute and repeated some. I had no clue what was up...they said they would call me again to let me know and asked if I was planning on calling them...and I said I'm sure I will.

Conference-like call, is all I got. Only, about nothing more than we usually talk about. I don't DJ anymore, so I have no idea...and unless I respectfully clarify with questions, I won't know. I was angry at myself for not asking those questions...such as, "I'm lost here. I'm missing your meaning." I feared sounding manipulative or stupid...or blonde.

LOL

There you have it...nothing more to report...any thoughts are appreciated...I think I have to write out that grieving timeline and include a lot of this, so I can get myself to forgiveness and permission to not self-betray. I'm better. Haven't cried in two whole days...I think.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Post deleted by LLG

Post deleted by LLG

What a great question, LLG...

and I got nothing.

I know they are who they are...which is so different than me. I think they know that...they aren't comfortable around me...which isn't my fault or theirs'...just is. See, they are of the mind that the bible says judge everyone first, before you get judged...if someone has piercings or tattoes, as my father said last night, then that tells him they are a bum. Straight out. What it tells him. Their standards are for everyone...yet he told me repeatedly that we're here to take care of our fellow man.

Really confusing.

I don't want to change, instruct or defend...I'm sorry, LLG...for the first time in this long, long journey, I don't want to tell them anything...not because they wouldn't listen, but because I have nothing to say.

I think this was their very first attempt at figuring out they really hurt me...and this was the best they could do...come at it diagonally...a phone call, which is significant, and all on the line, two at the same time...which my mom hates because she hates my dad's breathing. That was powerful...and totally up for interpretation.

I am not out to block love deposits...I just don't want to make them up out of thin air anymore. I don't want to lie to myself or take everything in the worst light. I'm not crazy...I understand English. My problem is perpetually feeling inadequate and intimidated by my parents...and that's mine. It's been 27 years since I left home...only had eight years with stepmother and 17 with my dad...I've lived more away than at home...and am tired of my beliefs that say, I am inadequate and defective.

This is God bringing me to a huge lesson...and I'm speechless. I am afraid. I have no idea. Would help if I could find those deep beliefs that hand me those feelings, huh?

Would that be what I'd like to say? "I'm afraid of this lesson...I've failed to grasp it all these years...help me?"

What a woos.

LA

I didn't see your post on the previous page before I made my last one...

"He is the one that makes me feel second best. I fear it seems I have a mental problem or something to say this. that I need it." If believing you have a mental problem would get you to counseling, for you, then maybe that perception would be a beneficial one.

By choosing to believe others make us, we have no power. You know this. You craving to be number one is a sign that you are not treating yourself as number one...knowing you are equal and valuable, as you are.

"When his choices and actions contributed to where we are greatly now." As greatly as your choices and actions did. Equal stuff here, equal power.

"And people always talk about how insecure women are without thought to the fact that ofetn infidelity is in the sitch somewhere. To me, I would simply sound insecure when he is the one has done the damage." If your H loved cars more than you, the kids more than you, spent more time on his work than on you, read the paper more than looked at you...you would feel second best. If your H stopped doing any and all of that, found all he needed in you, filled him up...then you would feel first choice. Until he looked away for a moment, right? How is that a way to live in an adult human marriage? With anyone? Any H?

You are complete, LLG...and you can't see it. I remember struggling hard with this for over a year after WH's A...if I kept putting myself last in my marriage...by my choice...why would I expect my H to make me change that? I am equal to my DH...I am. Him choosing me shows great taste...lol...it's a gift, a blessing...and I would be okay without him, too. Once you really get the respect going, the counseling for yourself, your issues, then you will have what is in you, no matter where your H is looking, what he is treasuring...and you might be surprised to find out you are his treasure...

You said when you were with a beautiful, financially stable man you were so shallow as to think physical attraction comes from your chemistry instead of your choice. You didn't see the wonder in him, inch by inch, growing your love to that level.

No, LLG...I have a feeling he didn't have the lesson for you which you have been wanting to learn all your life...you didn't have to earn or wrestle his love...he gave it...which gave you doubt about HIM...made him unattractive in a physical manifestation...and you have found the man to really challenge why you don't feel love and then you do...feel loved and then you don't...this, inside you...right man for the job...if you stop using him as your mirror.

"Now that I'm growing up I realize the choice I made was most costly in choosing my H. but anyway I'm here now." You're choosing to be where you are right now. Your choice. No buts. And using that fantasy man (who's changed over the years) as a comparison is stealing from your marriage, betraying it. You're doing that.

"My H doesn't do anything to speak out of his mouth or show that he loves me." This is a DJ to you and to him. I believe you truly believe this...and I don't. He is present. Even if he is mute, he is present. He contriubutes financially, is a father to your children, probably a brother, a son and a cousin...as well as a messed up human being, much like the rest of us. And he fears you greatly.

"So I don't think the message would be effective to say I need this. It would seem better to say, you need to get with it dude, lol!." Why not own that this is your issue, along with the fear? I statements. Ownership...not an SD.

"He needs to take lessons from my friend. I introduced them once. I dont want to look like I'm needy. When specifically it is his part in the R that I'm after. I am asking him to play his part and I play my part."

If you're after your H's part in the R...please divorce. Be kind and self-respecting...we don't play at marriage. We own our lives and our halves of a marriage. As long as this is about what you're not feeling, please do it. File tomorrow.

LA

LA, I've decided to work more independently on my M. From time to time I may have questions and I will open the thread to anyone who's interested, to respond. Thanks for all of your help and time spent assisting me.

I see you've done the clean up and changed your email...I just sent you a response to your last email to me and it was bounced.

LLG...I thought long and hard before submitting my last post to you...I wrestled it...and hit submit. It wasn't lightly said...I know you agreed to not delete anymore, to not shut out and revoke...and that you know how very hurtful this is inside me because of my history.

I know you know this.

My intent was pure...to risk all of this to say you can divorce. To do so instead of hold it in your mind and corrode yourself with it. To hold onto it is your choice of fear over love. I know. I was there. Still am with my parents. I can divorce them, too...didn't know that until last week.

In my returned email, I asked about counseling, again...how that was going...and said pretty much what I say in this post.

I'm at a loss for words. Your presence is missed. You matter. Revoking your presence is a huge statement. Guess that's why I said to divorce...maybe your only way to come to see life as it is could be finding your lesson over and over again. I had to do that...I spent years doing that.

I wonder if this is a lesson...your removal...the deleting...it could be seen as me driving you away, huh?

LA

Hi, LA. I felt really judged and insulted by your last post. But I don't want to comment any further b/c I fear being judged and insulted more. Anyway, I'm working on my M as best I can. I do miss posting to you also, but I'm not really sure that I can trust you or anyone else with my thoughts and feelings anymore. So I'm trying to grow stronger on my own. It feels like i'm in the dark sometimes while at other times things are really clear. Anyhow I made another appointment to see my MC. And I will soon. Hadn't been back since my last time mentioning it.

I hope all is well with you and that your sitch with your FOO is better. If not, definitely, I hope it will be in the future. Take care.

I didn't say it above but I believe you commented the way you did b/c you intended to help me. It didn't seem very much like it at the time, however. Seemed that you had become impatient with me. Well I have to acknowledge that my bahavior was very irresponsible and inconsiderate. So I can understand if you felt impatient even though you've said you don't have any judgement of me.

I actually talked to the Harley's and it looks like my focus has been off anyway. To some degree you've expressed some of what they've told me also. However there was also some additional things that they shared that has really influenced me to change focus.

As I said I'm putting things together. It takes more work this way, but it is ok. Anyhow, I'm not off MB but I am taking time to get myself together. I do read your post to other people and other post and it helps a great deal. I think I'm in the mode for learning more and reaidng more. So this is where I stand.