Suzet - I would send him to flylady.com. There he can learn all he needs to know about how to keep the house up in the least amount of time, and you won't have to "teach" him.

Another trick is to spend 5 minutes in each room, every day straightening up. He can even set a timer. If you have 10 rooms, that is only 50 minutes a day, and it goes very quickly.

And buy him an MP3 player so he can air guitar whilst dusting.

If he's into that sort of thing.

*ahem* *cough*

Have you tried just making him a small list. Have like 3 things on it. Two that are really simple. And one that requires a little more work. Crossing off accomplishments on a list are what some of us guys live for. It's not really done until I get to cross it off a list! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you make some of the things ridiculously simple, it makes some of the other things much more bearable. You can even spice it up, if you like... I try to sneak things into my wife's grocery list at times...

1. Milk
2. Bread
3. Cereal
4. Have sex with H
5. Oranges
6. Steak
7. Rush home for 4 completion.
8. Probably should pay for other items...

You can have fun with this too, if you CHOOSE! You could give him a list of things like...
1. Put clothes in hamper.
2. Take out garbage.
3. Lock the door behind you on your way to the bedroom! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

-of course, stipulations on order of completion should be discussed! - cuz if it were me...the clothes going in the hamper would be the ones getting ripped off my body the instant I saw #3!

hang in there

Perhaps an interactive list, where he too can make suggetions of things that need to be done, after all he may have legitimate commitments or requirements too. Also it doesn't appear so much a list of Suzet requirements soleley, but a list of things that you both should be aware of that need to be crossed off.

What about simple things like you cook, he clears or even he cooks you clear. Or you hang out the washing, he hoovers and then you both spend time together not doing chores for a while. Then do the next set of jobs. Do them together for a while so he learns the ropes.

"I won’t feel so strong about this if my H was employed and had an 8 – 5 job either…"

Perhaps it's just me, but is this the real problem poking through? Not domestic support EN but financial security EN?

Let me be a devil's advocate for a moment, OK?

IMO, most of your approach to this issue smells of manipulation and control.

What the Sam Hill difference does it make if there are dirty dishes in the sink when you come home as long as they get cleaned up? Which is more important, his schedule or yours? Well, obviously, yours. But what, if any, say in the matter does he have?

How much of his free time do you feel you own? It does not matter why he has this free time. Do you own it?

I also wonder if he is somewhat depressed, or generally melancholy or embarrassed, about not having the 8 to 5 job he already knows you think he should have. He might already feel bad about the way things are. There is nothing like depression to make the hours in a day disappear with no tangible accomplishments to speak of.

I don’t know you from Eve, and these forums are a very two-dimensional way to communicate, but A Word of Caution:

My FWW and I are the reverse situation. I do most of the domestic chores. I don’t mind either. She can be “a lazy slob”, as you describe your H (although I never ever even came close to calling her anything of the kind). Yet I love her anyway. I have since learned to live with her quirks. They have become endearing to me, in a way.

Guess what, one of FWW’s excuses for her LTA was I spent a period around the start of her LTA trying to manipulate her with both carrots and sticks into doing more household chores than she felt like doing. She perceived this as an LB, even though it wasn’t meant to be. It all went into her justification files.

So, your ENs aside, are you trying to set the stage for H’s future A with your LBs, control, withholding his ENs and manipulation? He may end up perceiving it this way and then the chickens will indeed come home to roost.

He's not really much different than you are, and he may use reasoning very similar to what you used to fuel your A. Be careful. Maybe you have already trained him in more than you realise.

With prayers,

So Aphelion, are you saying that Suuzet should be perfectly okay with an H who doesn't contribute his fair share financially and has no respect for her wishes to keep the house in decent shape? Sounds like a wonderful deal ... for him.

Just because someone's between jobs does not give him/her license to sit around the house doing nothing. If there is a financial support EN that Suaet's H was temporarily unable to fulfill, it would only make sense that he try and make up for it elsewhere by working on another EN.

Yes, it can be depressing to be out of work (I've been there and so has my H) but that is not a depression in the clinical sense and the best treatment for it is to actively try to find work or do something else in the meantime to keep busy.

I find your take on this very puzzling. From your perspective, it seems it's perfectly okay for unemployed H to not try to meet any ENs, while the employed W must continue to do everything possible to meet his.

Is this because Suzet was once a WS? So, like, she had this coming to her? I wonder how people would react if the roles were reversed.

Believer, wantingtotry & RookKev – thanks for all the good suggestions.

GBH, thanks for your support & understanding in this matter.

Aphelion, GBH already came to my defense and said all the things I was thinking while I was reading your attacking post to me. By the way, I hope you will respond on the questions GBH asked you because I’m waiting for the answers too…

Alpheion:

I think your response was a bit harsh to Suzet. She has not posted or took a contreversial side on a tough subject, just on domestic housework issue with her guy.

You missed the wole point on the sutbtle manipuation approach to having a woman lure her man to do something. You said you tried the same thing but it doesn't work in reverse since men's number one EN is sex, it is not that for women.

Let me guess, you are a perfectionist, is that correct?

You clean the house because you want it perect, is that fair to say?

Nobody can do it as well as you, correct?

I am not being mean, I read your mindset in your words. It is not wrong if the answer is yes to all of the above, but if the answer was yes, then it explains your reasoning. I am curious to see how you anwer.

TooSoon

You know Aphelion, I’ve reconsidered and decided to respond and answer your questions & remarks…

No, it’s not. I know me and my H’s financial circumstances are just temporary (until the court case gets resolved). I know the fact that my H lost his job is not his fault. It was circumstances outside his control so the fact that he temporarily can’t provide enough financial security is not an issue for me. Both me & my H get frustrated with the situation and circumstances from time to time – especially after 2 years of a dragged out court case – so this is not easy for either of us. And this is why I feel we need to support each other with daily responsibilities and duties where we can and at least share the domestic duties.

The difference is this:

If I return home after work I have to start preparing dinner and with dirty dishes in the way this is a problem for me (the kitchen is small and I can’t work effectively if the equipment I need is in the dish). So usually if I’m coming home to dirty dishes I have to clean it up myself before I can start preparing dinner. However, the days my H offer to prepare dinner, I don’t mind the dishes and then it’s no problem for me to clean it up myself.

See above.

I don’t feel I owe any of his free time. As long as my H is doing his part of the duties and responsibilities (which will usually take him 30 minutes or an hour a few times a week), I don’t care what he do with his free time… As you can see the issue is not about his free time, it’s about duties and responsibilities that need to be done. And if my H doesn’t contribute and do the little I expect from him, then yes his free time do become a problem for me and then I get upset if he can’t fit in 30 minutes or 1 hour of his free time during the 8 hours a day while I’m at work…

I know my H is not depressed (I’m the one who struggle with depression and using AD’s), but of course my H also experience melancholic days and frustration. This whole situation hasn’t been easy for either of us and again, that’s why I feel we need to support each other where we can. I’m aware that both of us need to fulfill each other’s EN’s…and I admit that lately I haven’t done a great job of it either… I do feel guilty about it… And what bothers me the most is my low sex drive…and the fact that lately I doesn’t have a desire for SF at all.

Please note the context in which I’ve referred to the negative things about my H. I was talking about his behavior and I didn’t attack him as a person (like you’ve suggested above). I never called my H a lazy slob, I was referring to his behavior. Please read my first post again. You’ll see I’ve made it very clear there that my H is a very good, loving, caring, good natured and emotionally stable person whom I love very much, but that there are some negative characteristics of him and annoying habits (like the laziness, sluggishness etc.) which cause some problems…

I love my H too…and I’m trying hard to live with his “quirks” as well…but I’m just human and have a “taker” side and “tolerance level” as well... Not like you who seem to be perfect.

Well this is just your opinion and I can’t see how your Affair talk (HUH???) have anything to do with what THIS thread is all about. It’s two separate issues IMO but it seems you have decided to confuse the two because you wanted to attack me as a FWW.

Hi Suzet,

When your H cooks, does he clear the dishes first to allow him space to prepare a meal? Or does he ignore them and leave the whole lot for you? One of my big complaints about my FWW prior to the EA was that she would always leave the whole days washing up to me after dinner, and never do a quick wash up during the day. This used to really annoy me. Since we've been meeting each others ENs so much better, I now often find I get home and she has spent five or ten minutes doing a quick wash up and I have much less to do after dinner. I love that and it really showed how much we had moved forward. We, too, have a small kitchen and no dishwasher so everything counts when the washing up piles up.

I appreciate your roles are different and in many ways reversed from mine and my FWW, but could you not, somehow, suggest he spend just five or ten minutes doing quick tidy round the kitchen before you get in? Not much, but just a little to help lessen the after dinner clearup. He may come to realise such a minor investment in his time leads to a great return from you. I often find that if I'm in the kitchen washing up on my days off when FWW gets home she'll give me a big hug from behind and then start drying and putting stuff away and we can chat about the day. So I end up meeting a number of her needs very easily and get great satisfaction from her company.

But don't believe I started doing this overnight. I had to work at it until it has become almost second nature for me to do more around the house. But I still get things wrong and need pointers from my wife.

Wantingtotry, my H usually don’t clear the dishes to allow space before he cooks and then while he’s busy with the food I will start washing the dishes to prevent it from piling up too much.

I have asked him in the past to do this but then he will say “I’ll do it now honey – just give me a minute or two!” and then he will proceed watching TV… And if I’m still waiting after 10 minutes, I get impatient and usually end up doing it myself. Sometimes I get the impression that my H keep postponing a task because he knows if he waits long enough I will end up doing it myself! SIGH… But here is some good news: After I’ve returned from work yesterday I have walked into a clean kitchen with no dishes. I felt very happy and gave my H a big hug! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> My H apologized to me about his lack of help in the past and said he will start making more effort. My H emphasized that his lack of support wasn’t intentional or willful, but that he will start paying more attention. I’ve also apologized to him about my blowout the previous day and said to him I want to work on fulfilling his unfulfilled EN’s too so that both of us can be happy. So, we’ll see how things go from here.

Chuckle, chuckle... My H has a long-standing habit of sitting/watching TV/playing on laptop till I'm just about done with a task, be it cooking or cleaning up, and juuuuuust before I finish, he'll chime in with "Ya need any help, hon?" And yeah, I hear you on H postponing tasks with the knowledge I'll eventually cave and do it.


Outstanding! Now let's see him keep that up for more than a day or a week!

Yeah, this sound sooooooooooo familiar... Maybe our H's are twins??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I didn't read all of the thread, so forgive me if I suggest something that has already been said.

If it is not your husband's EN, he probably doesn't notice what needs to be done. It's not bothering him. Not until you blow up...and then uh oh!

First of all sit down and talk to him when you are not upset. Then make a list of all the things that need to be done and post it on the fridge. Ask him to pick the things he'd prefer to do and you pick some things you will do. I find that my man works much better when he has a list that he can check off.

Then PRAISE, PRAISE, PRAISE him for even the smallest things he does. It sure makes mine eager to do more when I'm telling him how wonderful he is and how much he helped me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Suzet,

That made me laugh out loud. 10 minutes is a mere micro second to a man. Something good is always on TV. Or in my case I'd just want to finish the level I'm on. My wife always accused me of procrastinating, I just pointed out that her 'Now' and my 'Now' are two different time scales. Taking the bin out 'Now' would, to me, mean today, probably before bed or maybe tomorrow, if nothing shiny caught my eye and distracted me. To her it would mean, actually, Now. You see how easy it is to get confused.

On a more serious note, thats excellent news on your H tidying up, maybe he is getting the idea. I agree with Susan, much positive reinforcement is needed but the rewards are there for both of you.


10 minutes.....lol <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

This is great news, Suzet. Sounds like you and your H are really communicating. I hope that the trend continues!

“GBH already came to my defense and said all the things I was thinking while I was reading your attacking post to me. By the way, I hope you will respond on the questions GBH asked you because I’m waiting for the answers too…”

GBH? Oh, wait. I blocked GBH quite a while ago. I asked her not to post to me and I promised to return the favor. Then I turned the gain down to zero on her. I do not see any posts of hers and haven’t for a long time. She might benefit from doing the same to me.


Look, I am not “attacking” you. I very much hope everything works out for you guys. I just think you ought to consider more of the possible consequences that might be around the bend if you continue to have to have things your way, is all.

BTW, I was not referring to your A in any way other than as a reference for not meeting your H’s ENs, whatever they are. He might be building some resentment. And as a FWW you would understand the reference better than a newbie, is all.

Think out of the box. ENs are a great scaffolding to use to help build an M. But they are not, not even close, to everything required. Even Dr Harley says missing ENs are not the real reason people have A’s. The A actually comes from inside the person. Balancing everything on a missing EN or two is to invite future and worse problems.

Why do dirty dishes in the sink bug you so much? Down deep, why is this even an issue? It is such a small thing in a much bigger picture.

Domestic Support is an interesting EN, you know. It is much more than the teamwork thing. It is a catch-all miscellany that is often misunderstood. It’s as if it’s a category “other” that was left after the other ENs were defined. You might benefit from parsing your Domestic Support EN into subcategories relevant to your personality.

Your posts in this thread have so much more than Domestic Support issues in them. Just some things to think about: there is an appearance of a desire for control over H; there is evidence of resentment H does not have a job; there is an almost obsessive ring to some of your complaints. You create a pile of important stuff and then hang a label saying Domestic Support on it. I don’t see the same relevance in all the problems you write about.

Maybe there is more to this than just a messy house. Can you figure out the real reasons why this stuff bugs you so much? Or is it just a convenient focus for these other harder to internalize and more important things entirely?

I had to figure this out myself. I was resenting FWW for a lack of Domestic Support years ago. I had to adjust my thinking. I chose to think differently. And I am much less stressed about it. I consciously moved the housekeeping components of Domestic Support off my top-five list. It was hard, it took some time, but I did it. And I am much happier for it. Dirty dishes in the sink and undone laundry mean nothing to me now. But they used to drive me bananas. If something needs doing I just do it myself, and if I need help I just ask for it when I need it.

Anyway, sorry if I offended you. Not my intent. I wish I was a better writer. I will delete my previous post if you wish.

With prayers (really),

Have things my way??? What are you exactly suggesting Aphelion? That I should in stead be perfectly okay with an H who has no respect for my wishes to keep the house in decent shape while I’m working my butt off to let us survive financially? Do you think most men (who are usually the breadwinners) will be okay from working 8 - 5 and then come home tiredly to his stay-at-home wife who have done nothing during the day to keep the house in decent shape and then have to do the task all by himself? If not, why do you expect me to be satisfied and content with this? Maybe because I’m a woman and because women are traditionally still viewed as the main person to take care of domestic duties?

Just because my H is temporarily without a job, does not give him a license to sit around the house doing nothing. Yes, there is a financial support EN that my H is temporarily unable to fulfill, and it makes sense that he try and make up for it elsewhere by working on another EN. As I have said yesterday, I know me and my H’s financial circumstances are just temporary and I know the fact that my H lost his job is not his fault & circumstance outside his control. So, I DO NOT resent him for that (as you keep on suggesting), but I do feel he need to support me with domestic responsibilities and duties while he’s staying at home and temporarily unemployed. From your perspective, it seems you think it's perfectly okay for an unemployed H to not try to meet any EN’s, while the employed W must continue to do everything possible to meet his.


Yes, you are correct. And just as he build up resentment if his EN’s are not being met, I build up resentment too if my needs are not met… It work both ways.

Yes, I agree with this 200%. I’ve said many times in the past on these forums that I believe unfilled EN’s plays a minor role in why people have A’s and that the problem is within the WS. My inappropriate friendship also had nothing to do with missing EN’s in my M – it happened because of issues within myself which I had to resolve. But if you also believe this (that missing EN’s are not the main reason for A’s), I don’t understand why you’ve implied with your previous post that I’m setting my H up for a possible A in future???

For you it may seem like a small thing but what you don’t understand is that the dirty dishes was just the trigger for my explosive response. With time I was building up and building up and that day the dirty dishes was like the proverbial “last drop in the bucket” before I exploded. It was not so much about the dirty dishes itself, but merely about the fact that I felt my H didn’t respect me and didn’t show appreciation for me by at least keeping the sink clean when I arrive home. I know this is not a big issue, but I felt if my H couldn't even adhere to such a small request as dishes, then what about the big stuff? I felt as though my needs wasn't important to him...and that he didn't care... I hope this explains things better for you.

I’ve a much more dominant personality than my H and I’m also more active than him. He can be very passive (as well as passive-aggressive and a conflict avoider) and he’s also a very emotionally stable, calm and peaceful person in nature. I, on the other turn, can be very emotional, can get easily upset; anxious etc. So I’m aware that our differences and the fact that I have a more dominant personality than him, can make it easy for me to “control” him. And I am willing to pay attention and work on this negative tendancy of mine.

This is definitely not the case (check my response in the first 2 paragraphs of this post). However, I do have a lot of repressed anger and resentment towards the people who have victimized my H and caused him to lose his job. I work at the same company my H was dismissed from. So, this makes this whole situation just more frustrating. Two years ago just before my H lost his job, we were also supposed to go for an expensive invirto fertilization treatment (ICSI) to try and conceive a child of our own, but due to the circumstances we now have to wait until after the course case is finished and my H have his job back. So there are a lot of issues working on me emotionally. I also had to deal with a lot of difficult issues (and people) at work this past week, so it’s possible that all these little “stressors” have unconsciously contributed to my blowout towards my H earlier this week.

I have a tendency towards obsessive-compulsive behavior, so you do have a point here. (A few years ago I was diagnosed with OCD with associated anxiety and depression and currently I’m using chronic mediation for it.) But the main problem with the medication is the sexual side-effects. Since I’ve started the medication it had influenced my sex drive significantly. I’m now in the process of weaning off the medication a bit to see if it will reduce the sexual side effect, so it’s possible that some of my obsessive tendencies have returned due to the decrease in dose.

Maybe some of the answers lay in the things I’ve posted to you above. If you want to, tell me what you think.

I accept your apology… And you don’t have to delete your previous post. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I’m glad I have put some humor into your day! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Typically men! (Just joking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />)

Wantingtotry, thanks for sharing your perspective again and giving me some insight into the head of my H – it’s really helpful and I appreciate it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Men are really from Mars and women from Venus, aren’t they?

Thanks! Yesterday was a very busy day at work and I felt very tired, but when I returned home hubby was busy preparing dinner and tapped me a huge bubble bath. He instructed me to climb in the bath, lay an relax. This was so nice! Of course I demonstrated my appreciation and clean up the kitchen later that evening! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I realize this… Thanks to you too for posting and sharing Susan! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />