Okay, I have to add another question to this ever growing thread. Any man feeling like he has taken his partner for granted will want to be more romantic. I am no different. But I have already been hit with "does this have to be done right now. I feel like you are smothering me." So I want to back off (it has only been 2 days since the "explosion.")


I want to leave small thank you notes in very nice paper in little places. Nothing sexual, just thank yous and I love yous. Maybe this combined with a small present here and there might help.


Am I still pushing this too hard? I can always get these ready and hold on to them for a later time. I must do something for my own sanity.

Well, they are all alike with romance too. They feel like they are being suddenly smothered.

If you need to do something, help around the house, and see if she will go do something fun.

Anon,

Over compensating is like smothering, is like giving too much good medicine at once.

Since you are now aware that women tend to analyze with the EN side of their brain, use this info to your advantage. Get those books I recommended for starters, espeically HN/HN.

What I will tell you is to back off. Just go do nice stuff. No romantic, no flowers, no frills. The manly stuff will get her attention now.

Manly stuff like, fixing things around the house, taking an interest in the children....washing dishes (that's a biggie for many) and if you kids are old enough preparing a meal (not breakfast in bed....not yet) but just doing stuff.

When she asks why are you being so nice all of a sudden, you can also throw in some 'reverse babble' and say.....all of a sudden? Been thinking of it for a while and I'm having fun. NO mention that u r doing it for her. That way she can tell you to stop. Just imply you are doing it for yourself and the children....and keep in pluggin'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

In other words, make positve changes and be focused. This is a good exercise for you as well so you are being truthful when you say you are doing this for you......learn to have fun at it and you may be pleasantly surprised.

Would that be ignoring her? Only ignoring the WS side. This will also be a test for what she posts on those sights.....can you imagine when she posts somthing like?


[color:"blue"]WS: ya', my H is a real jerk. He and the children made soup and sandwhiches for lunch, then he did the yard and finished hanging the new blinds I bought last month. I just hate it when he is helpful. arrrgh....![/color]

That kind of stuff would tend to get other women jealous if their men are not doing those kinds of things. That c/b an LB (love busting) to them filling her EN from afar.

Jealousy among women is a strong emotion. They often use it to keep control or t/b accepted. Strange and very illogical but very real.

Learn to recongize how to turn roadblocks into tools.

JMHO,
L>

Good one Orchid.

Everyone,

Thanks for the input. I started doing the stuff you reccomended over 2 weeks ago. I have already made things worse for us. Friday, she announced that she was taking my son to see her sister. So Friday morning, they both leave in a rental car (my new truck is not a option, why I do not know). We are moving on Wednesday and now I will not have any help even though my plans were to have us moved while she was at work. This is completely illogical as we do not have the money to do this (this trip will cost $400 min). But it is going to happen anyway. Sorry to bog you down with this but I really do have anyone else to talk to.

C.

Anon,

Sorry to see she is dumpin on you, but you do realize she WANTS U to suffer for HER errors. Decide whether you will allow that but still do what you need t/d.

Can some friends come in and help? See if you learn to work around her schemes, it will pizz her off but you will still get your stuff done.

Learn to turn her lemons into lemonade. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

take care,
L.

And don't expect her to notice anything or be appreciative for a couple of months. That's just the way they are.

Well,

Despite what has happened, I saw a glimmer of hope today. We joined a family bowling league a few months ago. My wife has the most beautiful green eyes in the world. As I sat there in the bowling alley talking to her, I realized how long it had been since I noticed her eyes.... You seen I have always been taken by her fantastic red hair. Goes to show that I have become too comfortable with our relationship. She was with me when I purchased His Needs Her Needs. She was even interested in what it was about.

Not to say that today has been a cake walk but she reached out and grabbed my hand for just a moment. This has not happened in Months. Yes, I understand that it could be a reflex, but I need even the tiniest of signs that tell me that I am doing the right things. While she may not read this with me, she sees me making an effort. There is still a huge canyon to cross as for the trust issue. We both are very worried. This will only take lots of time and I will be patient. Until then, we are talking and that is something new.

I will let you know what happens. Thank you for all your comments so far and please keep them coming. I am sure that the next few months will be filled with new challenges.

Best Regards,
C.

Just don't get your expectations up. This is like a roller-coaster - way up and then way down. If you expect anything, you are very likely to be disappointed. This is a marathon you are running, not a sprint.

GrownUp




This is a difficult subject. Even she does not have the answers. This is one of the reasons that my trust level is so low. I do not know where she is in her life. But, as an update (she wrote her friend that she did not love me, and I accused her of lying) she has lied to herself. The talking today has been even more intense than before. I have seen into the depths of those beautiful green eyes and THERE IS LOVE THERE. It may not be fully in the open...BUT I CAN SEE IT!!!!!

I sat with her just this evening and watched her favorite show with her and shared a bottle of wine. There is feminine laugher here tonight. It is a good night so far. Believer has warned me of ups and downs and we have had a few of those even today (some angry, some hurt) but overall it is still a good day. I need to do some reading. I just bought His Needs Her Needs today and I need to get busy.


To be continued.......

Wow, I had no idea how correct you were! Even though Sunday was a good day, it ended oddly. She stayed up until 2AM doing her internet thing. It seems that many of her friends are only online late at night. I was up with her until late and she looked over to me and said "Are you staying up to make me go to bed?" Whew.....I was not doing this but I asked her why she was staying up. Was it because she was not tired (which really could be the case given that she slept really late) or was it to make sure that she could talk to her new friends. She said she was not sleepy but I am not sure that she is being honest with herself. I really wanted to know as her constant tiredness/insomnia cycle could be feeding itself.

It seems that her internet experience has a life of its own. Had you not posted the above, I would have taken this mini conversation too far. I dropped it and let her continue without interuption. I sat beside her and read HNHN the whole time and tried to keep my mouth shut. It was not perfect, but it was positive from my side. It may not have gotten me a deposit in her Love Bank, but it dang sure was not a withdrawal.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
C.

Sounds like you are doing just fine. Keep it up, and her on-line buddies won't be able to compete.

When she notices your changes (might take awhile), just answer her like Orchid advised. Orchid is an expert at what we call reverse babble.

Try not to judge her or argue, and don't say anything bad about her on-line "friends". It will just make her defend them if you do.

I do not have a problem with on-line friends, if that is in fact all this is. One of these is now not on line. She and W talk quite a bit on the phone. W started talking to me about her yesterday. I consider this great progress.

You see, I am a control freak. Everyone has faults and my two are this and my temper. I have been working hard at both for years. I explained to her that I really do not care what they talk about. I care about who she is. Is she a good person? Will the friendship be mutually beneficial and not one sided? It has been interesting that most of her women friends (and It think that until this, I had met them all) become quite friendly with me too. I am a bit of a social person too. I like to talk to people and have a good time (as you can see by all my posts, I do like to talk!). Her good friend in our last town used to meet us for dinner lots of times with a new boyfriend here and there. She hooked up with an old aquaintance who became my good friend. You see, W and I have always been linked in just about everything.

My problem with the on-line thing is the obsessive behavior to doing this late a night as though it were a secret. I HAVE MAJOR ISSUES WITH THIS. Marriages cannot have secrets. You do not have to tell your partner everything, but openness is key.

By the way, I did get a goodbye peck this morning. I need my little positive signs. And I did move back into the bedroom for now. As we move next week, I do not know if that will still be the case but I sure hope so.

Thanks for your support. I will need to be careful in the future that I do not become an addict here like she has over there!

C.

I have to add more to this. Last night my W asked for new exercise equipment. Since her illness, she has been a lot more independent and is VERY conscious of her appearance. This is one of the things that bothered me so much. Is this a Mid Life Crisis?

She is 39 and I am 40. I really like what she is doing. I had lunch with her today and had a real hard time concentrating on talking. She has never been one for low necklines but boy has that has changed. Just worried. If the recovery from this is sucessful, then it will be great. I am worried that she may be doing it so that she will look great when she finally decides to leave. I know that this is probably just insecurity on my part. But right now, I am probably over analyzing everything.


C.

Lastest Update,

Finished reading His Needs, Her Needs. Utterly fantastic is the least that I can say. So many of the concepts make so much sense to me, it is incredible. I have gotten the W to agree to read the chapter on communication with me. I will treat this as a start.

W also reconizes (she said this tonight!) that she was spent way too much time on-line. It is a start and I will accept that. However, I seem to have misread her again. I have always made the mistake of trying to convince everyone to move over to my beliefs. This is a major point with her. She said tonight (just the most recent of many times before) that I do not understand her side. This comment has been said before, not just in our current situation. If not for that, I would chalk it up to double speak! What am missing with this? Am I just so clueless that I am blind?

Okay, what does it mean to understand her side if you do not agree with it? Lets take the irrational trip that she is taking this week. This is one that she and my son are forcing on me literally 5 days before we move! I understand that she needs some quick and immediate space. I see the need for her to see some of her family and friends. She wants to "have some fun." I understand all of this. Logic says 1) timing sucks 2) puts a lot of pain on one partner 3) We really do not have the money right now. Logic will show that a time frame of 4 weeks later makes a workable solution. I understand where she is coming from, but I do not agree. Because of this, I do not understand. It seems to me that she now needs to argue her point until she convinces me. Then only can I understand her side. Any suggestions for this will be welcomed with open arms because I just do not get it.

Next MAJOR point - this one alone can represent the end of our relationship - my snooping about what was going on with her is the worst of anything done. In her opinion, this is an almost inexcusable act. She continues to bring up the other people online whose posts and emails were seen along with her replies. This is worse than her abandonment of me even when all signs point to a Real Affair (I do not try and tell her she had a real EA - that would be the end of everything). I explained to her that the secrets she kept demanded that I take this action. She makes no attempt to understand where I am coming from. I cannot get her to step back, see a husband trying to find out what is wrong while the W gets prettier, thinner, nicer dressed and staying up late at night with people I do not know. How can I defend this? Was I not right to try and exposed the truth? I did expose the truth this way. How long would this have gone on otherwise?

One more time...after reading HNHN, I tried to work on the communication. Trying to ask open ended questions so that I could understand what makes her tick. Here I have failed miserably. W has NEVER been one to talk about her feelings. She is very shielded about this type of thing. This is one of the major reasons that this problem went on as long as it did and why is has gotten as bad as it has. So, the concept of talking to her like most women like to be talked to is wrong and I missed the signs.

We are going to a MC...I want to use Orchid's suggestion above, but I have a problem. MB tenants will be used and:

1) W does not agree that a good relationship creates best friends. She seems to think that separate lives are needed in some aspects (I can't seem to get this one tied down)
2) W does not agree that snooping in the cases of infidelity are okay. This is the worst evil in her opinion.
3) W wants to just pass the time and let things run their course. She seems to think that this will naturally solve itself. I have no such illusions. But I am backing off again.


I personally think that a woman's viewpoint as an MC will be invaluable.


I am currently on a business trip and will be gone until late Thursday night. She and my son leave early Friday morning. We will have spent 6 full days apart by the time she gets back. Is this a good thing? Talking on the phone is terrible. I cannot see her eyes or her reactions to what I say and we seem to just make each other mad.

I am definately losing what mind I have left. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Thanks,
C-

Are you certain that she isn't going to meet one of her on-line friends on this trip?

It sounds like you are doing fine. Keep meeting what needs you can. She has given you an important clue about one of her issues - that you don't understand her side. I would work on that. Ask her to explain so you CAN understand it. And don't try to debate, fix, or make her be logical.

believer,

I know that she is indeed going to met her new friend (who is, by the way no longer an on-line friend). They talk quite a bit on the phone now. I do not have any concerns with this believe it or not. My wife talks on the phone so darn loud, I get to hear the conversations. It sounds just like two women talking like normal. She plans on having lunch with her on Saturday.

This is sort where things get strange though. W mentioned that she does not think that I would every meet this friend. For some reason, she thinks that this is strange. I am chalking this on up to the odd crap that is going on. Heck, we are still having trouble communicating! Is it strange for me to want to meet her friends? I want to know if they are decent people or not.

You made a comment regarding a EA that seeking validation and support is way past friendship. In which book of Dr. Harley's would this be in? To be honest, I am still a bit confused. Yes, I can see how using friends for a huge amount of validation and support can be damaging to a marriage. But some of this seems like normal friendship to me. I would like to see the original thoughts behind an EA. Is this in the other reccomendation of Orchid's, Surviving an Affair? If it is, I am sort of scared to buy it. It the W sees this book, she will freak.

Thanks for info. This little bit has made tonight worthwhile as I was not sure that we made progress. You have made me feel we really have made progress. The pain of the progress is what I am feeling right now.

C-

C,

"She said tonight (just the most recent of many times before) that I do not understand her side. This comment has been said before, not just in our current situation."

If I'm getting this right, you feel all tangled up. You've got the light bulb on communication going off, but it feels foreign to you as far as conflicting beliefs and conflicting choices taken. Maybe what your wife was saying above is that she feels that you don't accept her, not just her choices.

You say a few times about judging people decent, their influence, what it might mean to your marriage. Judging is an obstacle to communication. She knows you hold people to your standards. Does she do this to you, as well? Or does she accept that your standards are different than hers?

This is part of that:

"You see, I am a control freak. Everyone has faults and my two are this and my temper. I have been working hard at both for years."

What have you done to work hard on this? Just try not to be? Or find the root of it, get help at Al-Anon or another 12-step program? Just curious. For the control freak and the temper (they are related).

On the taking the trip and your moving, well, that wasn't you not respecting her beliefs, it was a matter of not using the Policy of Joint Agreement to negotiate. Of course, you can't get there until the communication gets solid.

"Yes, I can see how using friends for a huge amount of validation and support can be damaging to a marriage. But some of this seems like normal friendship to me." I see this as a red flag that your W doesn't feel validated or supported by you. Validation comes in with accepting that she has her own thoughts and feelings and they are hers. Not right or wrong, not good or bad. Just hers. And you have yours.

You're on the road to a lot of self-growth. Can only turn out well because of that, don't you think?

LA

I would question her sexuality choices right now. Ask her if she is bi or swinging the other way 100%. It will get the wonderment out of the way. She will then know you are wondering also. The down side is you need t/b prepared for teh worst kind of response.

I questioned my WS and asked if he was bi or gay. He looked shocked and in my 'nicest' reverse babble face, I said....'well dear, I just don't know you that well anymore, so u c/b, r u?' The look on his face? Priceless. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid,

I have specifically asked this. I have even gone as far as to ask if she was "curious". She stopped, turned to me, looked me squarely in the eye and said no. As you said, I needed to get this out of the way to begin with. If this were the problem, our outlook for any type of recovery would be very dim.

LovingAnyway,

My temper has reared its ugly head only about 4 times over the past 10 years. This is just the worst thing that has ever happened to me. This shows up at work more than at home. It is a part of my performance reviews every six months. It is monitored closely. I just need to bring more of this home.


This is a point of growing for both us. I do feel that, if we survive this, we will come out much stronger for it. Yes, something happened around six months ago. We do not know what as we are both admittedly clueless. But I did get some validation from her last night. Until her illness, we were very happily married. So we have both lived with this for years without major problems. Heck, it embarasses me so much.


What we cannot get past right now is her extreme attitude towards my spying on her. Dr. Harley literally says that he has no problems with this as marriages should have no secrets. She gets equally as mad about me spying on those she was talking to. If really feel that if we can get past this point now, we can move forward. To me, her actions SCREAMED "I am having an affair." Orchid, she really gives me trouble with this. She thinks that all I had to do was to ask her. How many people having an enjoyable affair would answer truthfully. They hide it as best that they can. I cannot get her to see her own actions.


I hate to ask a direct question like this but DID I DO THE RIGHT THING? Where would we be today if I had not done this? If what I did was okay, how do I even start to get past it with her?