You can password protect the files where she can read them or not, but not erase or move them. Whenshe gets on the PC take DS out to do something, maybe ice cream, or a book store to buy a book. Just get out for a few minutes or so and come back. Maybe it will get her curiosity up and next tiem she will want to go. Check with some of the pros before you do it though as I wouldn't want to give you bad advice.

As for me last night was good, worked on a video for DDs class at school, turned out OK. W had said yesterday morning SF during our 2 hrs last evening. She had to get some shots at work and was tired so I took a pass on SF, asked if she wanted to look at the COASTCO and Sam's Club travel brochures she brought home, so we looked to get an idea of cost and places for a vacation late summer or early fall. Went to sleep when we were done. Not a bad evening at all, much better than night before last!

Eagle,

The archives are built into Yahoo IM. I do not know the file names. She is using IM to clear them (I cannot password protect a file that is created by IM on the fly). I just think that this is very suspicious. On the other hand, once I found her passwords, she never changed them. So, on one hand, she is trying and on the other hand she is hiding something.

Watch out for the roller coaster. At this point, I have decided that the laws of physics still applies. "what goes up will come down".

C-

Good afternoon, G2...

You know, I read your posts and looked and looked...bet you left out all those "I" statements you've become so consistent with, right?

(At breakfast Sunday) "You know, I am really surprised how high conversation is an emotional need for me, W. I love you as my best friend and my wife. I enjoy listening to you about anything."

About hugging back, "I now understand that affection means a lot more to me than what I thought it did. You hugging me back feels like acceptance and concern. I've been feeling unimportant, not cared for and not accepted by you at all. Thank you for that hug."

"I can't tell which my #1 EN is...either attention or O&H...I know I am feeling a lot of rejection and pain from neither one of them being met right now. I don't feel your attention when you're on the laptop and next to me. I would like to believe I could learn to trust you again, too. I really miss that."

"I'm surprised how much pain I feel from not trusting you. I didn't realize how much I did until I didn't."

Tell your truth. Act from your code. Could be you are...but if you are, you should feel at half-pain level unless by acting at all, you raise your expectations of her response to a demand level.

I believe boundary enforcement is progressive. First, you have to speak. When the violation happens again, you have to act. Progressively.

Consider that your part is your need and that you have closed yourself off from the world and been dependent on her. That's a lot of pressure and responsibility. Enmeshment happens more easily, that she will feel responsible for your feelings, and you hers, because of this.

I urge you to write in a journal daily, put sticky notes on your mirror as positive reminders.

Let go what she's not doing because what matters is what you're doing. You cannot teach her her lessons. No one can. We teach them to ourselves, in our time. In order to feel she isn't giving her best, you must first judge her. Is that still in your code? Judging others? Measuring another human is against God. Don't do it, please.

Fulfill your end of the EN spectrum...O&H, attention, admiration, appreciation (for Sunday), affection...act from your code and you won't desire to measure her.

First strive to understand...then be understood.

There for you...happy that you widened enough to allow a lot of us in...

LA

Well LA,

Rest assured that I do try. I was pushed for time when I posted and hurriedly put these last two out. I am wording this as "I feel XXX when you do YYY." We have had a couple of LB free days. Today has been okay, but I still feel a fit left out. I keep reminding myself that my expectations may be a bit high.

I am interested in any ideas that I could use to get her to read HNHN or post here. I do not want to push as that has already caused problems. Tonight, her friend was in a panic, so while the W talked to her, I started dinner, finished off some laundry and washed the dishes. How's that for a heck of husband!

C-

Still here. Still working. I have not been resting well even when I am alseep. I went to bed really early last night. I will have to see if that helped. I may have a sinus problem induced version of sleep apnea. W came to bed around 11 and put her arm around me. How good that felt is literally undescribable.

I still feel like she spends way too much time on the internet. At least the fact is she spends more time on that than us talking. That is my barometer for this. I spoke to her this am about why she has not been reading HNHN. She says that she forgot. I wanted to know as I do not want to have to remind her (thats pushing). I asked her "do you want to read it?" She responding by saying she is doing it because it is important to me. I feel that she does not see any good that it can do for our long term relationship. Is it wrong to push something like this or is it a source of possible resentment? This type of thing drives me crazy now as I do not know how to handle it. To me, this is a sign that says "I care and here is how I can show you."

In general, things are better. No fights since the big one last saturday night/sunday morning. Sunday was really good but the last three days have just been okay. Sort of like one plus day followed by 3 neutral ones. I guess at this point, a neutral day is a bit positive. Sorry, just thinking out loud (sort of as I am typing it)

C-

Leave HNHN on the computer desk. You aren't her parent and cannot remind her, coax her, trick her or make her read it.

Trust that God brings us what we need when we need it. Something else may be necessary before she gets to HNHN or MB.

Do not allow yourself to judge progress. State your fear, "I feel scared our marriage is over." in reply to her "I'm doing it for you."

You are creating resentment by focusing on results that aren't here, can't know, of her reading it. Instead of making a symbol to you that can make or break your marriage, trust that God is working and you can't see.

She does not need to believe as you believe to save the marriage. Respect that you each believe differently is more than enough. Calm yourself, focus on yourself.

Her presence can say, "I care and here is how I can show you right now." She is home with you. You could choose to make that your symbol.

Her arm across you is a symbol...and you obviously made it one...you cherish her touch, instead of resenting the lack of it.

Getting this?

No 2x4...a nudge.

Great for you to stream your consciousness here. The sleep due to distress is important. Your taking positive action while her friend had a crisis (another one) was fantastic. Instead of resenting your wife's choice, you acted to benefit her and you. You felt good about yourself. Don't forget to look for the payoffs from you, for you.

Breathe, believe, trust and state what you feel.

Want to do a resentment timeline instead of go crazy?

Or a beliefs list?

Or a wants, needs and desires list?

I'm here to distract, er, support you...all the way.

LA

Distractions....well, I wonder if they will be needed much longer? I have posted little here in the past few days. Not much has changed except for a good conversation on Sat night where W opened up for about an hour. After that, back to the same old crap. The only thing that is clear to me right now is that my love for my W is draining faster than I believed possible. Our relationship rebuilding, IMO has only traveled a mile or so, while the miles of my love are whizing past at a rate measured in mph. I am really getting scared at this point.

C-

How about a different perspective...

What if your wife is being a mole...can only stand the pain of popping her head up into the sunlight for a short time before she ducks back down. Not withdrawal, punishment or rejection. All that she can take is just that hour...a slipped in truth here and there?

That's about her, not you. Your part, expectations, measurements, how rebuilding should go, feeling limbo because you expect something solid to stand on...that's all you.

And your own lovebank...did you know you can make withdrawals from your bank and believe they are your wife doing them?

Your expectations will drain your love...it is a fine line, I believe, but your part matters, too. Each time you have an unmet expectation, you experience a loss, disappointment and will have an answering feeling of resentment for that loss.

Fear will answer, also...fear drives your expectations to tame it. Make me feel safe by telling me how it will be, what to expect...no unknown. Well, how much reality is in that?

I like how you visualize your emotions and that images matter to you. When I tell others to take their focus off their WS, it is not to deny or hide. It is to respect and adjust those visualizations. Taking the focus off includes removing your expectations from their shoulders, and yours. Within your control.

What I believe you have, a close cousin, is want...you want your wife to be consistently O&H about her thoughts, feelings and belief. When you want, there is more reality in it. Expectations don't give a hoot about reality. When you acknowledge you want to save your marriage, you have different feelings answer you than frustration, anger or resentment. When you expect, those come in full force.

Protect your own love bank and O&H to yourself. Watch how your fear attempts to manipulate YOU and others for safety, unrealistic and draining to your own lovebank. Hug it and let it know that what you fear isn't within your control, but assure it that you know what is and you're working on it.

Better to live with the fear than to reduce it with fantasy, don't you think? The other way, well, is wayward.

LA

LA,

You will be amazed how accurate your statement about a mole was in reality. However, the mole IS A CLOSET LESBIAN. My WW has looked me in the eye for several months and told me she was not a lesbian and was not having an EA. Stupid me, I believed. I found a odd thread she was visting called "married-in the closet" and this opened my eyes. I guess I will be moving my main threads over to the Divorced/Divorcing catagory from here on out.

GOD, this is painful. She lied to me and let me spend 2+ months trying to rebuild a M based on lies and deceit.

Thanks for Listening...I need to find a divorce lawyer now. Sorry for taking up your valuable time and very good advice for a hopeless sitch.

Chris

C? Hullo?

Who is this person? Sorry for taking up my valuable time...your WW is a closet lesbian...your sitch is hopeless.

I want C back!

She lied to you...like a wayward does.

I missed where you got your certificate for expert judgment on other people's sexual preference. Wow, where have I been?

I'm not arguing the very good advice part.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I challenge the stupid me part. C? You in there? I wanna talk to C!

Did you read of her experiences, her truth?

Tell me how this isn't different from an A...if she is exploring, wondering, fantasizing, lying and deceiving...all the while staying, wanting you and son...wanting life one way and fixated on another way.

Support isn't over even after the judge bangs the gavel...you've got a long road of pain, anger and a lot of self growth, whether you do divorce or choose not to.

If you want me to leave you alone...just say it, 'k?

Two months...and you could have many more in store. The pain won't stop with the filing, serving, showing up...you will be ripped up over and over again. That's just how it is...you sound very angry and afraid. You were when you got here. What's changed?

LA

Sorry LA,

I just do not see a future for a man and wife when she "has no interest in men." Those are her words. She cannot bring herself to hold me much less than anything else. I will talk to her about ending the affair and see what happens.

Chris

Question: She brought up a version of NC for the discussion boards. Does the NC apply for her new lesbian friend to? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Chris

Well, I'm not sure you can equate 'no interest in men' with a sexual interest in women. Do you get the impression she's tried lesbian sex? This might just be a woman who's lost her desire for sex rather than discovered a new orientation. How was your sex life early in your marriage?

In short, it's hard to determine from the information that she really IS a lesbian rather than someone who's having an emotional affair with someone.


Is she looking at this person as a potential partner? Is she sexually attracted to this person? If so, then NC is going to be required.

The only worry I have here is that we tell people not to have opposite sex friends because of the danger to marriage. It does seem a bit extreme to tell someone "you can't have any friends, male or female," you know what I mean?

I think you need to figure out for sure what you're dealing with before you make too many decisions.

Mys

She as stated that her friend is not a "romantic interest" and everything I have peeked at supports this.

She has never had lesbian sex. I have to agree that it could be possible that this is a result of my earlier neglect of her and her feelings. I will talk with her when she gets home. However, I am not going to expect anything positive.

Chris

Hey, I hear the harm. I hear you believing what she posted in a chat room or on a board. Those are her words. Are they her truth?

She loved and married you, celebrated you physically, emotionally and mentally. She merged with you...through some not so good times and great times. She shared her thoughts with you and hid others. She craves your acceptance.

You.

You're also male. You are also spirit. You cannot be replaced.

Cyberspace is a great place to be anonymous while you mull yourself over. It contains a lot of the imaginary and parts of the real. Difficult to sort through both unless you're highly aware.

She is a mother, a daughter, a wife, a worker...and she is looking at who she really is without all those roles and have-tos in the way.

Physically, we pull away from those we are betraying. We shudder and show revulsion, not for our partners, but for ourselves, through our partners.

That's why you can't read into people's actions. You don't know.

Fantasies for same sex can also come from the longing to know ourselves. Self-claiming in a way. Or not. I don't think you know. You may not have had any of these fantasies for yourself...there is a fear in having them, exploring them, fear of changing your life. Exploring that fear isn't choosing them...it is part of facing it. Like a first step, not a decision.

In pulling away, we can also reject before we get rejection. How could you love her when she's such a mess? So confused? So full of resentments for you which she secretly knows she created? Making choices from feelings, living that way, creates chaos because it is backwards.

I know you know that. I am attempting to take you through your own fears and praying you won't make choices from them...because then you would be doing what she is doing...or trying hard not to do.

LA

She has agreed to try and work on our marriage. She told me that she has no attraction to men but is physically attracted to women. However, she has no one in particular. She tells me that she has always had these feelings. I will Plan A her as hard as I can. She will think about opening up to me as far as accounts a passwords are concerned. She wants to keep talking with her friends and that will bother me a bit. How do I know when a friend turns into something else? Just thinking out loud...

Chris

God I am scared. LA could this really be a repulsion type reaction from the EA?? If she has no phyical attraction to men, how can I change this??? She has no A partner, just friends. The NC can be around the web sites where she really pushed the limits. Here is the post that started the h3ll today.

FYI,

I have joined a Yahoo Group that specializes in Mix Orientation Marriages - a MOM specifically for a hetro husband lesbian wife. Please God, let me understand

I hear you, G2...

Scared, stunned, like your heart got hit by the broadside of a butcher knife.

You took her post as a pure truth instead of hers at the time. To fit in, find out, and declare the state of mind of a true wayward..."And we all deserve to be happy in the lives we choose." What kind of believe is that? Really? Look at it closely, and tell me...is this not someone sitting in a puddle of entitlement, full of resentment and a lack of respect...for others and herself?

Prime wayward thinking. It is this perspective which gives license to kill off families...it is not the perspective of your wife. You fill your wife's ENs...don't be distracted by the lesbian aspect...symbolically, is it not the same as an OM?

Wanting what you don't believe you have...that you've given all you have in you and didn't get what you expected in return...not seeing your choice in the giving, your choice to love because the resentment makes it so much harder to feel, the more you look at all the Giver did from the Taker's viewpoint.

Human. Entirely human. Destructively human. There must be a reason we get there--and get back from there.

Look at you, finding help on the web...widening my mind.

How about IC/MC? We've talked about it, had obstacles, and you're done to it as necessary as milk, IMO. What do you think?

One last thing...fantasies in our heads betray our marriage. Happened in mine. In many. Men give themselves permission to get a bit of ENs met through this...women do also. Where your mind focuses, there is your life. No longer clarity or objectivity...and slowly, very little reality.

You guys have been through major life changes in short order. Feeling disoriented, the weight of decisions versus their results. Sound at all like your wife's perspective at this moment, but about something that is thoroughly and unrevocably under her control?

We work our way through stuff...but react to them as if every step is a final decision. Breathe. Breathe. Get into that marvelously loving human side of you and open up your possibilities...stop shutting them down so hard you can't breathe...boxing yourself in, not your wife.

They say curiosity killed the cat...never understood that really. Stinking our nose in where it shouldn't be. Because then they say, learn...knowledge is power (widens your choices) and if you close your mind, you're dead.

Maybe they meant our assumptions will kill us...assuming we know what is in that drawer, down that street and acting to meet our expectations. Because your ability, the permission you give yourself to find out, dig into and comprehend, is thrilling to watch and know. It directly battles your assumptions, maybe like a lop-sided wheelbarrow in reaction/action...but you get there.

I applaud you, G2. My hands sting from how often I applaud you, celebrate you. You don't let scared stall you for long. Thank you for the inspiration you are. Now, breathe.

LA

LA,

I would just like to take a moment to tell how much I appreciate you and your advice. Words can never explain how much I need your comments and advice. To me honest, I am drunk and cannot stop crying. This is so ironic...the immovable and unbreakable Chris (yes, that is my name that I have been so embarssed to say)...who can spend hundereds of thousand of dolllars in a simple everyday decision being reduced to a such a sobbing $hit.

Please believe me...my wife is only second to my son in my priorities. I love her so deeply that I am ashamed that I ever thought that I could stop loving her. I am just so scared. So scared that I am embarassed by my thoughts, feelings and actions. I am embarassed by my weakness. I am embarassed that I let my M come to this. Sorry to act like such a slug but I AM LOST AND CANNOT FIND MY WAY...

It might be wise to ignore these ramblings, but, as my post's title say, I really need to talk to someone . Thank you for listening...I really need a friend and my W has always been that friend for me.

What I have not said is that I am a geek. No woman would look twice at me. I cannot even imagine myself as a divorced man...maybe a sad excuse for a man...h3ll, I really need a counselor now.

Chris