Hi JustJ,

Business is booming it seems. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> Could you look up a ladies post by the name of Chaka? She could really use your help as well.

Glad to see you back JustJ, I hope that things are going well for you these days. Hopefully when I come back to your part of the country a few of us can get together. I will now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

God Bless,

JL

Chris,

Let's be clear about this. Your wife is having an emotional affair with her "VBLF." Whether they are ever involved physically or not is immaterial. Nor does it matter whether they're interested in it or not. What matters is that all of her time, attention, energy, and focus is on this person -- and the others who are showing her this new horizon. That IS an emotional affair and it is very risky business indeed.

JL: Hi there!! Good to hear from you. I'll look up Chaka's post. My life is lovely. I post updates about it on Graycloud's campfire thread. The basic summary is that HoFS and I are still very happy and slowly evolving our worlds to better fit a relationship that spans two states, 365 miles, four kids, two ex's, two full time professional careers, and a whole host of other, err, details. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'd love to see you next time you come out this direction. And I'll be near the Twin Cities this weekend, if you (or anyone else) happen to be there. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

JustJ,

Ok, refresh my memory HoFS??? I think I recall him, but I am not sure. As for the news that you and he are an item, that is very cool. I think I am going to need a full update on your young lady. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

God Bless,

JL

JL doesn't hang with the cool kids, does he? Heehee. I lurk at the campfire sometimes. I feel very smart right now knowing something for a long while that JL didn't know.

That just can't happen in my universe.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

:::waving to Chris & Mrs. C:::

I'm so glad you're here, JustJ...

LA

LA,

You said
All I can say to that is <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> Now you know why I am called Just Learning. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> You would not believe what I didn't know and what I don't know.

LA, if you ever get the chance to meet JustJ in person, do so. She is one very cool lady I can tell you that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

JL

ROFLMAO!!!

My hero stuck his tongue out at me!!

LOL!

Hey, you're preaching to the choir, here, JL, about JustJ...would be a privilege for me. What, you think you're the only one to change my life?

Get over yaself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey...I'm enjoying tickling your embarrassment bone...LLG called me "enlightened one" and I KNOW I'm on her same journey, cracked me up. But I get it. We're just passing it on...there isn't an end.

Doesn't stop me from seeing you as my hero.

Get over yaself and live with it.

LA

*chuckle* Chris, I apologize for the threadjack.

LA, you made me laugh. I'm glad you tease JL. He deserves some teasing sometimes. He's a really, really good guy, though.

I sometimes wonder how many people lurk on threads like the campfire. It's such a cozy place to be, you know? Most of the people there aren't in the middle of any particular crisis. They're just existing and walking through their lives. It's a relief from the pain of many of the other threads, and I rarely venture out of there and into other areas. I noticed this thread only because of the word 'lesbian' in the title.

So JL can go read through 270-odd screens of posts (all worthwhile, of course) to figure out what's up with me, or I can post it here. I'll post a summary here, but I must say that the story is probably worth the read, too. Hmmm. I wonder if I can find where it starts. Sure enough, I can. And because I'm a story-teller more than someone who summarizes, well, here's the links to the story so far. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

HoFS is HeroOfFamiliesandSons now, and was HusbandofFenceSitter once. He was on that really long thread that Cerri and Persistant and he had.

This is where I was. Searching, open to the new, hoping.

Walking the Labyrinth. That's the moment of things changing, though I wasn't -sure- yet.

And then I was sure. What a moment that was. And completely incoherent, too.

The details of how we met, long ago...o is mentioned in it is Cerri, of course.

There's a bit that's missing, because it was on another board and then got moved to a place where no one gets to look at it, unfortunately. The bit that's missing makes it clear that it's HoFS.

And then there are bits and pieces.

Bits and pieces of more information.

And more details, probably the most coherent version of the story.

The red heart at the airport.

More airport bits -- and some bits in between.

This one doesn't deserve a URL, it's so short. But I'll quote. "Gee, it's been a long time since I was here. Hi, everyone.... Me? I'm well. I'm so in love with HoFS that I can't always breathe quite right. Other than that, life is pretty normal."

Pictures and Plans .

How do I feel about it?

Hiding becomes a way of life again.

And here we are at Thanksgiving and Christmas.

And on that cheerful note, I'll have to finish this another time; HoFS just called and he seems to want my undivided attention so that he can, err, whisper sweet nothings (well, okay say naughty things) to me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I got my butt ripped...Sort feel like I got ganged up on. In general the summary is

• I am too uptight and I need to learn to relax. In other words, I am controlling...okay LA beatme with some more 2x4s...I deserve them. I never thought that I was that bad.
• There is nothing wrong with W talking with the women she is talking to
• I need some friends outside our relationship
  

I need to learn the art of small talk. Can anyone help me please? I really do not know where to look.

As for second one....I worry but I can no longer say anything...W feels that she has been vindicated bigtime. Last one? This I really have no clue on. I have one friend in Dallas who told me that I am way too smart for most people. I intimidate most people. So, what to do from here...In a group of people I can be a social butterfly...getting me in the sitch is what is difficult.

For the sake of my Marriage, Please HELP!!!!!!!

Chris

JustJ,

I forgot one thing. I am being corrected on the EA thing. W did have an EA complete with SF fantasies earlier in the year for a couple of months. I have been informed by her in front of our therapist that her friend is simply a friend and nothing more. Just wanted to make sure that you understood the sitch. Our therapist supports her and her new lesbian friends as a support group for her (which I cannot deny).

LA, get ready to hit me a few more times. I really need to solve the controlling issue. It seems odd that she would push this during counseling when she told me that I was not as bad as you had portrayed earlier. But, I need some resources to learn from. Any suggestions?

BTW, I got to hold W's hand again as we went to sleep. I is amazing how comforting this can be. This one was a bit different. Previously, I held her closed hand (as in fist). Last night, she openly held my hand (hers clasp around mine. I would say that a small bit of progress has been made.

JustJ, you are not the first person to say you fall in love with a person, not a gender. I do believe this and I appreciate you saying it to. It really gives me hope for the future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Thanks Everyone!
Chris

Morning, Chris...

Best place in the world for control freaks is Al-Anon, to my way of thinking. You don't have to be married to an alcoholic to attend...there's probably one drinker in your family...maybe a great-grandfather...mother or father.

You may be smarter than a charley horse, but control freaks are based on fear. All the mapping, thinking out all strands, even in 3-D, well, that's just arm wrestling reality. You're gonna lose. It is your fear of pain, abandonment, intimacy...whatever.

I used a control fantasy for years...desiring a certain outcome (part of being a pleaser/fixer) and working backward through all the manipulations possible to force it. When I harped on you to embrace reality, that meant abandoning the control fantasy...for you to look back to your intent, to your belief and really examine it.

As for small talk...well, there's another belief I don't have. Yesterday, a neighbor began talking to me (I put out the trash on the wrong day), and I found out about her life, from beginning to current...70 plus years, such a fascinating life, what a privilege...and for my part, I shared what I thought was commonalities...my mother sounded in some ways like her's...my son was similar to her grandson in another way...there were hugs and tears and a lot of laughter for an hour and a half.

Previously, we had introduced ourselves once, spoken ten words total.

Sharing ourselves is sharing our lives. Small talk? What is small? What is big? You have thousands of thoughts a day...from observations...sky, humans, stories, jokes, weather, interactions, anything...when you listen and tie them in, that's conversation to me.

That you made your wife your social world, that is more devastating. My H did the same...I felt like a pimp finding friends, ending up still his whole world. What a weight to carry. Then I'm fair game for everything--the one to blame, punish, look to for every need to be filled, in every way, when he wants it...too much, Chris. That's not controlling...that is fear of others.

You were stunned how well you communicated with another couple in DFW, right? If you have the fear of being empty, uninteresting or false...drop it. You are you...fully capable and needing of socialization. Doesn't mean you have to dazzle with conversation, small or large talk...but to show up, be present, invite and reciprocate.

I believe that what makes us control freaks is our beliefs, not our choice of actions. We've been over this. Go back and go over it again? I dunno. Changing your beliefs means you have to root out the one, like a bad tooth, and replace it. Seems to me you're saying, "Yes but no" and not getting there.

You're not changing for her, you're changing for you, right?

You don't solve yourself, Chris. You accept yourself, your fears...and stop acting from them. Find out how unreasonable they are...or how reasonable.

I did Al-Anon, read "Facing Love Addiction" and listened to Just Learning here on MB and others.

I couldn't stop the smothering aspect until I got fully into providing for my own needs...working out, doing the self-talk, breaking down my needs and what they represented...lots of that. The more I did this, the calmer I became...able to focus on H's words (when he had them) and act not react.

A note of concern...since you broached your fear of losing your wife because you're a geek and can't get another woman (you don't "get" us, btw, until you "get" us), I've noticed a couple of more shots at yourself.

If you base your life on your looks, then that will be what it will be. You are a physical human being...which does not outnumber the fact that you are also an emotional, spiritual and mental human being. You've got confidence of your intellect...which can work against you in self-growth if you keep thinking, "Why aren't I getting it?" (Another reason to go to Al-Anon.)

I'm still here for ya...just don't have any new...feel like I've said all this before. Stop judgments, comparisons and blaming cycles; practice "I feel" and "I believe" statements until you are thinking in them; listen and repeat (no small talk required)...and please, please, please stop believing you can freak out, anger, motivate, keep or make anyone do anything.

Not possible. And you delight in this, I know, when your wife chose to hold your hand last night...to reach out and touch. It is heartbreakingly real because she chose it. You cannot make her do that...guilt/shame/manipulate her to do that...and if you choose to believe you can, well, then the touch isn't sweet, is it?

LA

Chris, you may very well be controlling. It's worth thinking about.

It's also, probably, a convenient way for your wife not to face the pain and guilt and shame and fear that she's feeling. After all, if it's all YOUR fault, then she doesn't have to do anything.

Trouble is, it doesn't actually help, and it'll make her feel worse rather than better. I would prefer to see BOTH of you work on your control issues. 'Cause you both have them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

There you go, Just J! Take two to manipulate, with consent involved.

Chris is the only one actively here...I think I messed up not making that more obvious. Only takes one to stop, too, to mess up routine.

LA

Chris, you joined Idiotville before we even knew you or your story. You were funny, you were witty, you got Idiotville and what Idiotville's all about immediately, you fitted right in straight away. Whatever makes you think you are not "good at this".

Chris, I can't even begin to know what you're going through. I seriously don't know what your future holds. But, don't give up on love and life my man. It's a wonderful world and as Mr E, our Idiotville cowboy says, it's a great day to be alive.

My cousin's wife left him for another woman. She and my cousin have since shared the raising of their children and everything important to each other, marriages, deaths, births of grandchildren.

Shoot, that probably doesn't help at all. It's meant well.

Thank you all for support...I really need it! I ordered one of Steven Stosny's books yesterday. Just hard headed ol Chris...not listening to good advice (sorry LA).

About the only thing that I know is that I am questioning what is important to me....that is a HUGE step. W said in counseling "I want to be with someone and be happy....have fun". Nothing about "I need to be with another woman." I do think that this is a positive thing.

I sent W flowers at work yesterday...boy was she surprized and genuinly happy...it is a start. Plan A is going strong today...got up at 6:30. Done a couple of loads of cloths, dishes and got coffee ready for her for when she wakes up. We will just have to see how things go.

Chris

Well then, let me be the second. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

My W's affair was with another woman. I honestly believe it happened that way because her integrity had defenses up against allowing it to happen with another man.

My advice to you would be to focus very clearly on overcoming whatever personal issues that you have that do not bring harmony and happiness to your marriage. Learn about your wife's emotional needs and learn how to meet them effectively.

Forget about the lesbian thing. Deal with the real issues at hand and the sexual orientation issue with work itself out.

John

Thanks John, that is where we are heading now...we can only wait and see what happens.

Thanks
Chris

Hey, Chris...

No apology accepted from you about not taking my good advice. You allow influence from others...or not. I believe you did allow mine, were open to it, and backed away from your own fear. You're human. You choose.

No apology required.

One thing I saw I'd like to point out from counseling...seemed to me you were saying that you did not get the confirmation from MC about what your wife did as an EA...is that correct?

My advice, should you take it, is to acknowledge that neither your wife nor the MC believes as you do...that your wife cheated on you. You choose your beliefs like you choose who you allow influence from...they can believe what they do, and you can continue to believe what you do. Respect the difference. There is no "THE truth" to find.

What you do need to examine is with this belief, do you feel you're owed her effort, that she broke something first, that she can't be trusted...what? Find and probe those things in you affected by your belief. There might be a payoff hidden in there affecting your choice..."I didn't break this" or "I'm not at fault", something where you are eased or absolved of that you aren't aware of right now.

Yeah, I'm keeping your focus on you. Not because I have laundry to do, no coffee and no H doing it, either.

Honest.

LOL!

LA

Well, things went south quickly....she is having another affair....found it yesterday. She was even planning the PA. I do now know what to do other than Plan A this. She told me how deeply she loves me but cannot be the wife that I want.

She had hidden herself behind lie after lie. I got very suspcious when she acted really strange yesterday. She blamed it on PMSing....Wait she did this just 2 weeks ago!!! I knew something was up so I looked up her email. There is was....the planning...the flirting. I was so sick I thought that I would die.

She wants an open relationship...but she dishonored me by pursiing it without discussion....I SCREAMED, I THREATENED EVERYTHING including my own death. Guys, the threats were not serious things but the RAGE had its own life for almost an hour. It was the rage talking and not me.

W broke down and we cried and sobbed together. I do not know where to go from here. NC is impossible according to her...she yearns to be with a woman (and lied about this previously). An open marriage is not feasible right now. Anything this extreme takes a VERY strong marriage as a base and we do not have that.

Thank you all...counseling will be interesting this week.

Chris

I want you to be emphasizing the betrayal incurred from her dishonesty, not gender choice. I hesitate in asking you to do this because I now suspect your honesty.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Yep...your belief that she is dishonoring you by pursuing it without discussion is one to examine. Is that your truth? Could it be that your boundaries haven't been established, you haven't consciously chose them because you're too busy doing crisis management? Yet, without them, you are then stuck in extremes...still trying to get her to stop causing you pain by crushing it into her?

Boundary: No extramarital affairs. Period. Moratorium on any action harmful to the fragile state of your marriage until six weeks of counseling. No decisions, no actions.

Pony up for IC for you both as well...so that for that six weeks you both are in counseling for two sessions a week. Commit to yourself three al-anon meetings a week. Get a sponsor. Take these actions...because the gender issue is seperate, Chris. These are people...outside of your marriage.

You are dealing with a serial cheater...someone who lives a double life in their heads, lots of justification and entitlement (because she can't get what she wants inside the marriage)...and you know I know what I'm talking about...because I was one.

LA

Chris? Did you just write out a post and then erase it? Hmmm?

LA