My DD13 (will be 14 in a week) completely understands the fog concept and knows that her Mom remains heavy in the fog. She has recently been asking me more questions about foggy behavior and I do not know the answers - so I'm reaching out here.

[For those who don't know the sitch - here is the short-version: Sometime in late '03, her Mom began A w/married family friend. WXW was heavy in fog, full of alien telling anyone who would listen how unhappy she was w/our M for 10+ years. We had "normal" disagreements however nothing that seemed serious until A began. We also had marvelous vacations with DD's and WXW and I spent much time w/DD13 and DD20 (recently married.) DD20 is WXW's step-D, however they were very close - more like birth-mom & daughter. We separated for good in 05/04 and divorced in 11/04. DD13 had a delayed reaction to D and fell hard in Spring '05. DD13 has been seeing an excellent counselor/psychologist for a year now and is finally turning the corner.]

Back to present: WXW still seeing OM who remains married however not living w/wife. OM still "sees" his W and also WXW; however WXW doesn't know that OM still seeing his W. OM and WXW attend church together and DD13 is forced to go with them during "her" week. Also; OM & WXW will only go out (dinner, movie, etc.) in a town 25 miles away and again - WXW forces DD13 to go.

BTW: WXW has cut off all ties to my family (including DD20).

DD13 frequently says: "I wish my real-mom would come back". She's also been asking things like: "How long does the fog last", "will she stay in it forever?" and so on & so on.

So I'm deferring to all of you.

1) How long does the fog normally last?
2) Are there many cases where the fog stays for the rest of WS's life?

Thanks.

FR

Personally, I don't think in these situations there is ever a norm. Everyone is so different. How did you DD ever hear the term "fog"? That's not language she would hear unless someone has talked to her and told her that her mother was in a "fog". Again, only personal opinion, but whoever is doing this is doing a lot of harm to your daughter. Children have no business in the middle of their parent's problems. They can't fix them and they didn't create them and to include them is detrimental to their mental health. Plus, if a judge hears about this, he's/she is not going to take it lightly...

Oh bull!! Unless you have teenagers you have no clue how smart they are and quite honestly at that age they do "get it" verses a child at a much younger age. AND if you DO have teenagers...you are clueless and have your head in the sand as to how much they "get".

FR it's hard to say how long the fog lasts. Seems like it last longer in WW rather than WH. Hang in there and continue to be the strength that your girls need.

HUGS!

I agree that teenagers do get it!

As for the "fog", my ex continues to sink deeper and deeper into it. (Of course, he's an alcoholic, so let's take that with a grain of salt).

However, the ex-wife of the guy I'm seeing has been divorced for almost 6 years, remarried for about 3, and is still apparently a totally different person than she was before she started the affair that lead to the end of their 15-year marriage. She has completely alienated her 20-year-old daughter who now only visits in order to see her younger sister and brother, and at this point the 15-year-old sister has emotionally shut down and her only focus is how at 16 she may be able to petition the courts to change custody and go live with her dad. She wants nothing to do with her mom either. Seems as the only one still hanging through the "fog" is the youngest, their son, who was only about 6 when they divorced.

LL

Fishracer~~
I'm in agreement that children pick up on things and some are wiser than others. I have that very scenario in my home. My oldest is very trusting and naive, but my youngest is very wise and catches her father in traps often.
I know she has not heard me say some of the things that she says, but she catches him in lies, and calls him on them.

As far as the fog?
My x has been with ow for 3 yrs openly now. I'd say he is still in the fog. In his case, I'm not sure that he will walk out, UNLESS something were to happen between the two of them. If that were to happen, I'm not sure he would step out even then. He is too proud.

He is in his own made up world. In it, he does not have to "feel" any pain of anything his daughters feel and nothing he does is to be questioned. All is perfect. Anything that happens in their home, the girls are told not to question or push buttons with ow/w.

I would venture to say, there are some who will remain in the fog. It's about being selfish for some, and they feel they deserve their own happiness, at even their children's expense.

K.

happyone: Have to agree w/AGE, LL and K on this one and I should probably make the chain of events more clear.

DD13 came to me about a year ago (months after D) - crying - and said: "My mom is not my mom anymore". You could've knocked me over with a feather when she said this! It was like someone hit me in the stomach with a bowling ball. After hugging her and getting her calmed down; I asked her what she meant. (Of course I already knew what she meant, however I felt it important that she verbalize it.) She shared her thoughts w/me and her description of her mom's actions was classic-fog. So I then explained the concept of "the fog" without discussing mom's A, OM etc. (DD13 and I enjoy a great relationship and I'm pleased that she talks to me about her feelings/thoughts, etc.) So basically, DD13 knows about "the fog" concept w/o need for the dirty details surrounding A and prefers to say her mom is "in the fog" rather than saying "Mom is having an A with OM...".

Alluring, LL, Karona: Thanks ladies for your thoughts. I'm going to put my original post over on GQ2 since "fog-talk" is more prevalent over there than here.

Take care.

FR

Heya Fish --
She's still in the middle of an affair.
In order to remain there, she has had to change her values, try to manipulate others to her point of view, and end relationships with those who see clearly what she's doing.

My opinion is that she won't come out of it until her affair is over.

Her "fog" doesn't have anything to do with the end of your marriage. It still has to do with the affair.

FR, I've heard 4 years is the outer limits of the fog, though it can probably be even longer, especially with additional issues such as other addictions.

Personally, I suspect that this is rather common. While dissonance and a denial of reality are not stable states, and in the absence of other mental issues (including addictions) a person's perceptions may eventually be expected to fall more in line with objective reality, there is still the matter of the malleability of memory.

In other words, if I exit the "fog" and find myself now able to assess my current situation and behavior with more objectivity, the history I have rewritten does not automatically revert to a more accurate state. If my current circumstances do nothing to call my revisionist history into question, then I may be able to continue on with my life in a more sane manner from this point forward - but it is as if I got here from some alternate universe.

Hi Lexxxy: I'd say you're exactly correct on all points and I've suggested to DD that her mom might be this way forever. (Although I hope not.) It's a pretty sad deal to watch unfold. Her mom still says/feels that all is fine with DD. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Letstry: 4 years. I hope that comes true.

GDP: I suppose that denial can mask events of the journey. It's still a shame though.

Thanks all for your thoughts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

Oh, FR...If only all girls could have a daddy like you!

I think, in this situation, it might be best if she understand that like you said, this may be her new "normal" self. I would try to turn the negative into a positive by letting DD know exactly what Lexxxy said: mom is who she is right now to justify in her mind that this is all okay. Use it to show DD that affairs hurt everyone-when people aren't themselves they hurt so many people, not just themselves. This is so sad, because right now she really needs her mom with all that she has going on...
But you sound like you handled it just fine and continue to do so. Let DD know that this all has nothing to do with her (because kids tend to take it on) and to just be her awesome self and hopefully mom will come around, but she might not. It's a life lesson.
Good luck FR!! You have such a great attitude, I know you will be fine and your daughter is lucky and will be a better person for having you!

Drita: Wow - thank you for starting off my Monday morning so well! A close friend alerted me to your post - so I logged on to check it out - and it is a pleasant surprise!

Thanks again!

FR

FR,
No need for thank yous! I call 'em like I see 'em. Don't you know that from me?!

Keep us in the loop! I feel for ya!
D

Of course I do - however you've gotta allow a guy to be thankful! BTW: I chuckled when I read your post above as I often say: "I calls em as I sees em". (Kind of like: "It is what it is"!) Interesting that WXW always hated those words.

Happy V-Day to you and all the girls on here! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

FR

I agree with Drita FR. You're doing what your daughter needs you to do & that is being supportive & loving & stable.

I've hesitated to consider ex in a fog but as time goes on it looks more & more like he is. I've wanted to feel like we are both being the best we can be for our boys but some of his decisions & behaviors & out there.

The stability, love & care I provide for my boys will have to be what gets them through the times their father isn't all he should be. The same is true for your daughter though we might both want it to be otherwise.

Because ex has denied being in a relationship prior to our separation I can't bring that important factor into our discussions. I try to be as enthusiastic as I can about what seems to be good things ex & gf friend do to show love to the boys. The other stuff is obvious to them & will work its way back to me to deal with in time.

What I wanted to say most to you FR is that you seem like a lovely man, a sweet, kind, loving father & for that your daughter is in a great place.

Thank you for the Valentine's Day wishes FR! Very sweet.

I hope something good comes your way today. Maybe a chocolate heart! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My xh is still fogged out...and still a WS! Even to his mistress/wife...the wistress...*my own creation of her name!

My son age seven KNOWS FULLY WELL what his dad did was wrong. He learned it was wrong at church with ME. I never was mean about his dad or anything. I even nice about the ok (other kids) involved.

It's not kids faults what the parents do...in this case, the problems are ones created by my xh and the wistress.

They are toxic together...and he's toxic apart from her.

and it takes NO EXPLANATION WHATSOEVER FROM ME.

My son sees clearly his dad doing the things he's been doing now. He knows that he now yells at his wistress stepmom (doesn't even call her that...he calls wistress by Ms. First Name)and that's all. They even tried to get her called "mom" and my ds would have NONE OF IT...

MY SON SEES THRU THE FOG. And he DOES NOT BUY IT.

He's always so happy to be with me! Very very happy!

And I try to always communicate well with my xh. For things regarding child issues or residual finances...which ALWAYS GO UNCHECKED WHEN AN AFFAIR LEADS TO A QUICKIE DIVORCE WHICH LEADS TO A QUICKIE PREGNANCY INDUCED MARRIAGE BTW...

there's always threads left hanging when that happens as I see it. And will be for maybe 2 more years sadly.

Gotta run.

Fishracer, just let your child know that YOU'RE THERE...YOU LOVE HER...YOU CARE...AND YOU BOTH PRAY FOR HER MOM.

My bad FR-not allowing your thanks. You're welcome.
BTW, ever have any problems with callin em as you sees em? I had a problem with it and I'm struggling with the outcome. I've been thinking about posting about it-I'm not going to hi jack here.

I was reading this over again and I wonder... when we say someone is in a "fog", are we giving them an "out" for what they are doing? I mean, it's wrong, they are NOT living right. And even though I try not to judge, do we kinda enable em when we lable them as being in a "fog"? Are we giving them some excuse for doing what they are doing, because for some reason they don't have their poop in a group and we somehow make it easier to deal with for US because we can't figure out what happened to them?

I'm just wondering. Because to me, if a person is in a "fog" for any longer than 3 weeks, it is who they are, let alone 3 years... Am I making sense here?
FR, I'm going to use your sitch as an example-(not you, so don't take it personally, k?) But, do we call them in a fog so we can somehow come to terms with what they are doing and who they are hurting? Does it make it easier for us to deal with? In addition, do we call them on it? If so, how often? Is it our business? Are we pussyfooting around the real issue, which is they are really doing wrong and screwing up and we are somewhat allowing them to because we don't know what else to do?

Long winded for something that's probably easily said in another way (but I don't know how to say it!)

Maybe I am threadjacking, if I am tell me and I'll move to another post, but...?

FR, thanks for the Valentine wishes!!! It was one day I was personally glad to be single! I went to Walmart & Sams-it was a good night for shopping-very slow business!!

Well, if this is a thread-jack, I reckon I'm contributing to it...

Drita, I think you raise a good point. Sometimes people do wrong and there is no "fog" involved at all, because they understand exactly what they are doing and they choose to do it anyway. They have no need to revise history, because their moral system doesn't raise much of a ruckus: "Hey, my wife isn't looking as good as she used to, and she's always busy with the kids, so she's gotten boring. My secretary on the other hand is young and hot, so I'd be a fool not to grab the chance to shuck my tedious responsibilities and go for an upgrade." While this is perhaps a simplistic caricature, it's awfully close to the truth in some situations. And such situations are about lack of character, not about "fog."

The "fog" involves dissonance. For whatever reason, a person starts down a path which her or she knows is wrong, or feels is wrong, but he or she goes there anyway. Maybe at first they tell themselves they made a mistake and they won't do it again - but then they do it again anyway. The guilt begins to bother them, but dang it, it feels so good to get that emptiness filled just a little for a change, so how wrong can it be? They begin to find ways to justify their actions to themselves, and there are two paths they can follow. Either they can revise their perspective - which sometimes involves wholesale distortion or even outright invention of memories - so that their actions become permissible within their system, or they can alter their moral framework itself.

This is not generally a process which happens overnight. There is extreme mental and emotional stress involved, and it loosens their hold on reality - sometimes to a downright psychotic degree. (This is not to say that they develop a true psychosis as such, but their grasp on reality can become just as compromised!) They are often caught in lies which no one in their right mind could possibly be expected to believe - but they are so "out of it" that they cannot see the absurdity for themselves. In fact, they are in no condition to assess what is believable, because they are too invested in a desperate attempt to convince themselves of their own lies.

Needless to say, this is not a stable state. Eventually, one of the contributing factors to the tension is likely to prevail. It might be the truth breaking through an increasingly precarious edifice of lies. Or it might be the weight of accumulated lies smothering the last fragile memories of truth. Or it might be the hardening of a heart to wall off the last glimmer of conscience. No matter what, the person can not remain unchanged.

But none of this pseudo-psychological philosophizing does anything more than explain. In no way does it excuse. No matter what the process, or what the ending, a person is still responsible for his or her own choices.

My ex-wife chose to leave me, even though I was a good husband to her. The lies and the fraud and the false accusations which she used against me during our divorce process are no less evil for her having first deceived herself.

But for me, understanding the depth of her pain and the price of her "freedom" went a long way toward my feeling compassion for her instead of hatred. I have every reason to be angry with her, based on her actions. But I'm not angry with her, because - although I have no problem saying that what she did was wrong and self-destructive and destructive to me - I understand why she did what she did. And yes, that makes it easier for me to deal with. I have come through my marriage and divorce wounded to be sure, but still with a soft and open heart. I have come through with love instead of hate. I have come through with the sweet memories intact and not just the painful ones. I have come through a better man.

My ex-wife is not the same person she once was any more than I am. Is she still in the "fog" any more? I doubt it. As much as she made her decisions, her decisions have made her. I still love her, and I still think of her with sorrow and compassion for what she has done to herself. But I can no longer be proud of her.

Wonderfully said GDP!

I've said to many people who have asked me if I would take ex back (not that he wants to come back mind you) that I have no respect him. Two things important for me to feel love for my partner are respect & pride in their character. Neither of which I feel for ex.

I feel many of the same things you do about your divorce & I too came out of the wrenching away with a soft heart. Very important for being open to a new love.