I know that many many people like to call themselves Christians , so I think I should get some good answers here. We all talk about exposure and I think it is not a point of debate really.....HOWEVER, what is your opinion of a Betrayed Spouse who does NOT expose to the Other Persons spouse? Is there a moral duty to do so, if the BS Wayward goes NC and immidiately on the straight and narrow right after D-Day. Is this a lie by ommission? Is there any "true" reason for a BS NOT to immediately expose to the other BS in the equation (even if counseled to do so by the experts)...EVEN if it may hurt our own recovery?

I happen to believe that a Betrayed Spouse who witholds this information from another betrayed spouse is equally guilty of the affair...as they had knowledge to help stop it for someone else,....or better yet, allow someone else to make their OWN decision of what they want to do woth the information.

I have a realy big problem with people who call themselves "Christians" yet they somehow find ways to rationalize NOT exposing to the other betrayed spouse in the equation. They know a "murder" was committed but don't go to the police with what they know...Withholding this information for even one day is 100% enabling of an evil affair and act and in my opinion bestows guilt and sin on the Betrayed.

I really believe in Karma, and I think that if you as a Betrayed Spouse are privy to the information of an affair and do NOT let the other spouse know RIGHT AWAY, then you are just as guilty. Karma will rear it's ugly head. Perhaps an unpopular opinion with the masses here, but I challenge others to give me valid reasons why I should reconsider this thinking.

What do you all think?

Lem

LM - I agree completely. I think there is a moral duty to expose to the other BS. In my case, the poor guy was in Iraq, fighting for his country. I let him know what was happening the first week he came back. It was HARD.

You know I never thought about this. I was told by FWH that she was in the process of divorcing...I believed him...why the heck would I do that back then? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
HOw the heck would I contact...
OMG I feel awful now, what if back then to OWH was not really divorcing her??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
OH, Lemonman, thanks for pointing it out... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />
I think it is morally right to tell OPS and would have made a stand. I will have to ask FWH for the truth, but then what? What if he says they were divorcing? What then? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I believe that if my neighbor's bookkeeper is embezzling money from him and I fail to tell him, that I am just as guilty as the embezzler. I cannot imagine forgoing this act of decency simply because it may cause me temporary personal inconvenience.[someone might be "mad" at me] It is the exact same principle in adultery.

There is no personal inconvenience that would be greater than the harm done to my conscience by cruelly neglecting to warn a person in need they were being harmed behind their back.

I do not have a high regard for folks who can only act decently and help their fellow man when it personally benefits them. That is the height of cruelty and the height of immorality in my estimation.

I don't believe in karma, but I do believe in simple, common human decency and doing what I can to help my fellow man....whether it personally benefits me or not.

I agree I think the OPS has the right to know what is going on. Of course in my case I had no idea how to contact him as he does not live here and they were seperated for almost 6 years anyway. But he now knows as he met my WH on Thanksgiving when he picked up his DD. He didn't care at all seeing how he is got his own life. So in my case it didn't matter.

But yes I would have told him if the situation had been different.

I'm no expert here, but I am a Christian.

I agree we should tell the OP's spouse. For me, it took some time b/c my WH had me scared that he was abusive and would hurt him or her. I was in such a frazzled state to begin with. THen I came here and asked if this was common--and wouldn't you know--it's a common part of the WS script. Others had heard it before. So then I exposed.

I think it might be a stretch to call it a sin--goodness, most BS's are in an emotional wreck during this time--and many don't even think to do it. They are thinking about their marriage at the moment.


Lem--at least for me--I call myself a Christian--and you know what--I still lie, yell at my kids from time to time, lose my temper, etc. Being a Christian doesn't mean you don't sin. You just should try not to--should want not to. But every Christian I know is a sinner. That's why Christ came. And my WH--the one who is causing me so much pain--I believe he is a Christian, too. Just a prodigal son, so to speak.

I think the idea behind karma is in the Bible, too--the whole reap what you sow thing.

About the murder analogy--that's a given example of a wrong--but it wasn't against the BS directly, so the emotional factor isn't present as it is when one is privy to the knowledge of the affair. When the BS finds out about the affair--they are stuck on themselves, so to say, and sometimes can't even get past their own hurt b/c this knowledge directly affects them. The hurt takes over their whole body. Witnessing a murder, while it should scare the heck out of you--doesn't directly affect every thing in your life--your dreams, your foundation, your family structure.

I hope that made some sense.

But I do agree, that once filtered through the emotional aspect of an affair, the BS has a moral obligation to tell the other BS.

Good discussion.

OK then...how does one handle the situation when they are counseled to withold exposure (for the time being)...now, I am not saying this happens often here, but it does happen. I don't ever agree with witholding big time exposure, but I can see why it is advised (often lately) to temper the exposure and "save" it for a better time....YET I can't even closely rationalize how a Betrayed Spouse who suffers the soul shattering reality of a marital infidelity does NOT immediately expose to the other Betrayed Spouse (if able to - i.e knows who they are or even a remote way to tell them). Yes, I know that people are shocked and fearful, yada yada yada when they find out......BUT if they have the wherewithall to come here and post their story and receive feedback or call the 1-800 number for counseling they should have the "fortitude" to do what is right and give another person equal rights and control to make decisions with their own life. Granting the other betrayed spouse those "rights" should happen IMMEDIATELY....I don't see where counseling with an expert or any of that has anything to do with it....I think this is 100% a moral issue on the behalf of the Betrayed Spouse.

We shouldn't need counseling to know what is "RIGHT" in our hearts....We are not WAYWARDS. That is my main point.

I always thought when we debated exposure, it was about telling family, friends etc....NOT for one second did I think that withholding exposure from the other BS was even on the table, yet I see that going on here.....I don't have the strength to pipe down about it tonight.

I am NOT sorry for those whose moral shell this exposes.

Lem

I don't think it should be withheld--just saying how I understand how it is not maybe the first and foremost thought in a BS's mind--and I don't think that makes them any less "moral" for being temporarily blinded by their own side of the sitch.

Because immediately you are thinking about what this is gonna do to you, your kids, your future (not the exposure, but the A itself). Then, you think of the OBS. And then you expose.

But, again, I agree exposure is the moral thing to do. But if it takes a BS a week to get the emotional strength to even get out of bed, I can see how it could take them more than an immediate reaction to tell the other BS.

What kind of sitch's are advised to withold exposure? I guess I don't know which ones you are referring to.


No, we are not waywards, but we are experiencing something that shocks our entire foundation heavily. I can see why some would be fearful (i.e. the abuse I posted about). I also don't think most people sit around and think about how if the spouse's had an affair, they would imediatelty expose--they probably never thought the affair was possible-so to me it makes perfect sense that it could take them less than an immediate response to inform the other BS.

I can't see off hand why they wouldn't be told either. What sitch's are you referring to?

I'm in complete agreement.

[quote]I don't think it should be withheld--just saying how I understand how it is not maybe the first and foremost thought in a BS's mind--and I don't think that makes them any less "moral" for being temporarily blinded by their own side of the sitch.
[quote]

Yes, and that those are fair and a reasonable reasons, but still not good enough. I think those of who who are recovered in our own way from this....should use our strength and experience to help those that may not have the clarity or strength to get them to grant those "rights" to the other spouse effected. Even if we lye in devestation and in pain, we need to muster more support from immediate exposure to the OW/OM- husband or wife....That's all I am saying. I think everyine is agreeing in principle here...ans that is good.

Everyone here knows how hard and how long I have been trying everything that I can to get absolute proof of the a. Not that I doubt it or anyone else here does.

In my sit. I have talked with the OW, one of her friends, her father... there must be others who know of her carrying on this long with my WH, why oh why will not any of them have the decency to tell me ?? They all know who I am, I have made myself very available to her and anyone I can think of who knows her. No one will tell me.

An old boyfriend of hers called me on my cell a long time ago.. we talked a few times.. he came the closest to actually telling me.. but all he said was... I am not going to get invovled (so that tells alot) it is between you and OW. So there you go.

Lemon.. I do believe in karma. why do you not ? You don't believe in my mantra.. what goes around, comes around ??

Karma ?? Heck, don't you watch My Name is Earl !!!


My very best regards - car

Ah Lemonman,

You are up to NO GOOOD again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I will preface my remarks by pointing out that where I went to college there was/is an honor code. It said simply : "I will not lie, cheat or steal nor tolerate those that do."

There was a GREAT deal of education on this very simple phrase that the part the hung most up was "nor tolerate those that do." because if it was found out that you KNEW someone had broken the honor code and not turned them in you were found to be just as guilty as the perpetrator. As you can imagine this was cause for a lot of discussion especially where friends were involved. The explanation given was actually simple. If this person were your friend they would have NEVER put you in this situation to begin with.

Now having said that. I think the other betrayed spouse should be told. The issue is when and how. Clearly if the other spouse contacts you and asks YOU CANNOT LIE. You should tell them what you know. Ideally, the OP should tell their spouse and it is often recommended around here that the BS approach the OP and give them a certain time to tell their spouse or the BS will tell.

I think the key here is that this is NOT to punish the OP, but to help the OP's spouse so I do think it should be done with kindness and great consideration. Yet it should be done.

The last thing to consider is the timing. Your WS has ended the A, gone NC, and is working their tush off to help rebuild the marriage. I think that the POJA is clearly called for here, as it is both of their marriage and nothing should go on behind someone's back. This gets difficult because often the WS does not want to see any further pain, they have seen and caused enough and the thought of being responsible for more can be very very hard to face. In someways the FWS is counterbalancing the very human reaction of the BS to seek revenge on the OP by telling OP's spouse.

Hence timing and method of telling should be discussed and agreed upon, but the OP's BS should be told if at all possible.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

JL

Doc, let me state, before responding to your post, that in general I believe that an affair should be EXPOSED as part of the process of destablizing and ending the affair. Having said that, you are deeply in the area of Ethics, Morals, and Common Sense with a BLANKET rule of "telling the Other Person's Spouse. There are times, especially when the affair is over or when there is a possibility of more harm than good, where the motive is "revenge" on the OP, etc., where exposure to OP Spouse might not BE the best moral or ethical choice.

Let's also look at if from a different perspective. I'm sure you have heard of HIPPA, and there are many good things about it, but it also has some bad "side effects." Same thing with the National Do Not Call list. Good idea in "most cases," but deliterious in others.

Now let's bring the "moral and ethical" choice a little "closer to home." Doctor/Patient confidentiality. I used to run a company where my Nursing staff would go to people's homes to provide infusion therapy, among other things. I used to get INCENSED over what I called the "misuse" of "patient confidentiality" regularly. Let me give you a specific example that occurred on more than one occasion (every time in this particular instance): My Nurses would be drawing blood and infusing antibiotics, TPN, etc. on a patient and AFTER THE FACT, they would find out that the patient was HIV positive or active AIDS (usually by "confession" of the person themselves [as in the WS scenario for adultery]). NEVER were we told when receiving the referral, to determine if we would accept the patient, that the patient had a disease that was transmissable and FATAL if one of my workers was infected. My contention was(and is) that my staff had a RIGHT to know and a NEED to know, so that appropriate decisions AND protections could be taken.

And yes, we always practiced precaution "AS IF," but nonetheless, our nurses, to say nothing of lab personnel who were working with blood samples, were occasionally exposed. Our nurses, for example, would sometimes get a needle stick.

The point I am trying to make is that, IN GENERAL, I agree with exposure that is APPROPRIATE. But on the "ethical scale" that is being discussed, how does one "ethically" withhold information about HIV/AIDS from people who WILL BE closely exposed to the individual who, in most (but not all) case GOT HIV/AIDS through THEIR 'moral choices'?

IF the "Rule" you want to support is "exposure at ALL TIMES and with no exceptions," then one could argure that you also need to be "true to the 'Rule' in ALL aspects of life where OTHERS could be hurt through YOUR withholding of information you possess. In the case of HIV/AIDS, one could argue, using the logic you presented and that others supported, that if someone else contracted HIV and died from AIDS that the Doctor who KNEW, but said nothing about to those who 'should know', is equally guilty of homicide, or at least "contributory negligence" to the harm and continuing exposure of potential STD's ,etc. from a "morally deficient spouse."

Then how about the folks who argue for abortion and NOT telling the husband or parent about it, or any of a host of "societal decisions" that WITHHOLD information when they are "in the know" and someone else's life could be affected by NOT telling them what you know?

There is NO easy "black and white" issue here. There IS a lot that falls into the "DO" or "DON'T" categories, but there are also "GREY" areas.

The FIRST position for me, as a Christian, is to "be angry (righteous anger over sin), but in your anger do not also sin." The total circumstances AND the motive for "telling" must be weighed carefully. In MOST situations, the unsuspecting spouse should be informed, but not in all cases. ETHICALLY, in some cases, exposing to the OP's Spouse could be wrong and produce more harmful results. That's usually in the arena of an affair that ended PRIOR to the BS finding out about it, but not always.

There is no doubt that Adultery has many far reaching affects on ALL who are touched by it. There is no doubt that "knowledge is power." What is DONE with the knowledge is the issue. What the MOTIVES are is the Ethical and Moral question. WHO benefits and who is hurt and/or damaged by the information, or the withholding of the information, IS a major consideration.

The "Honor Code" is a good thing. But it does NOT address the "real world" and "not tolerating" someone who willingly exposes people to AIDS is ALSO an ethical choice that is made every day. "Covert operations" that employ "lieing, cheating, stealing," etc., under the CIRCUMSTANCES, IS the proper "moral and ethical" choice because of the "greater good" that is serves, no?

Unlike HIPPA or "Doctor/Patient," "Attorney/Client
Privilege," where LAWS make the "moral and ethical" choice FOR YOU regardless of your personal opinion (and cause YOU exposure to legal penalities if you act on YOUR moral beliefs); people can "hide behind the law." Adultery can be just as devastating to the unsuspecting Other Person's Spouse AND they DO have a "right to know." But the motives of the "Teller" must come into play in making a "moral and ethical" decision as to the reason and appropriateness of exposure.

It is NOT always "easy" to know what the "right thing to do" is in all situations. That's why "blanket rules" really need to be checked closely for appropriateness to minimize "unintended side effects."

God bless.

i do believe in exposure. the other bs has every right to know who and how to protect themselves.

now my situation....d-day happens....very shortly after i had a complete breakdown. total withdrawal and no-one was home if ya know what i mean. i was alive but i didnt exhist. if i had exposed in the first week or so...he would know. but i didn't. i scrambled like everyone else. then i was absolutely incapacitated. by the time i healed enough, about a year, i felt it was too late. i will regret it till the day i die and then some. i still struggle with it. if i tell now would it be vengeful---i dont feel vengeful anymore about it but would it be considered vengeful? i still feel he needs to know.

lemmon posted in bold letters...exposer right away....what about in my sitch when right away can't happen?

Ok, I got to bite on this one.\

Consider my sitch and let me know what you think.

Wife has a ONS with her boss.
She quits her job shortly thereafter and moves on b/c she can no longer have any self respect and pressure in workplace is unbearable.
OM'W catches him in another ONS shortly thereafter and promptly leaves and divources him.(still doesn't know about my wife).
My W keeps her ONS from me and pretends nothing is wrong.
Over the course of the next year my STD develolpes and I finally get diagnosed after living in denial for some months..
At this point, we are one year past the ONS and wife intuitively did the right thing by leaving job and having no contact for past year.
Why at this point, would I seek out the OM's now Divources W and tell her something that will only hurt her, but have no consequence on their already terminated M?
On the other hand, she would out of anger, tell everyone she knew what had happened, including my grown sons, in an effert to embarrass and humiliate her. Strictl revenge!
I think when the truth would only, in this case, cause more harm than any conceivable good, it is best not told.
I would welcome diff opinions.
All Blessings,
Jerry

I don't believe the moral choices are so clear-cut that a blanket statement about exposure can be made.

Exposure to end the A is sensible, as the potential damage from exposure is offset by the damage being done by the A.

Exposure to tell a cuckolded spouse the truth, even when the A is quite dead and the marriage is on a healthy footing, is not necessary, IMO. Delayed exposure generates contact, and runs a substantial risk of reigniting OP interest (and in my experience of multiple unstable OPs, this is more than likely). This is potentially damaging to the family of the recovering couple.

The ethical question involves the duty of care to the cuckold vs the duty of care towards dependents. The latter is much more important, to my mind. If ongoing ignorance is dangerous to my children (ie the A shows signs of reigniting), then exposure is needed. If delayed exposure is dangerous to my children, then exposure is not acceptable.


TA

Yea karma my lemony friend.

I agree completely.

I was a total and 100 percent exposure person...but it was difficult b/c the ow were UNMARRIED...

now that is something else to deal with...how far to go? whom do you expose to?

I asked my friends, searched my heart....and decided the guerilla approach was best for me. I looked ow up in phone book and (this was the first ow...monkeyho...the most evil of all of em btw) saw a name matching her last name, which is very rare, on same street and a few numbers away.

so I called. Lady answers phone. I ask if she is related to a ms. monkeyho, and she says yes...I say my name...and that your relative is having an affair with my husband, a married man and father of a beautiful little boy. that had I accidentally had found out and it has been going on for some time. I asked her how she felt about it...she said "are you sure?" I said I had evidence out my ying yang. She said she was sorry and I hung up.

I was respectful...

it was her aunt. And I know without a doubt it got to her parents as well...as it ended up being one of the straws that broke the camels back.

a year after that, monkeyho was at church...still sleeping with my husband, but going to church ...and one of my girlfriends was in a women's bible study at that church. lo and behold...monkeyho waltzed into that bible study.

my friend was nice, kind, and friendly to her. at the end of the study, when they were taking prayer requests, my friend said "I would like EVERYONE in this prayer circle to lift up my very good friend P. She is a wonderful woman and a loving mother and wife. Recently she found out that her husband has been having an affair and both the husband and his mistress SEEM TO BE UNREPENTANT AND NOT STOPPING THE AFFAIR. Will you ALL PLEASE PRAY WITH ME THAT GOD INTERVENES AND HELPS THIS PRECIOUS FAMILY?"

Monkey made up an excuse suddenly and got up and left the circle.

That is imho, what a prayer warrior and Christian does. they are NOT ugly to the OP or OP friends or family. but they do state the truth and the truth is....UGLY.

It is what it is.

And my friend exposed in the only way she knew how...she did NOT reveal the name of the mistress even in front of the mistress...but she revealed THE SIN...AND MY NAME...which I was not ashamed of. Revealed it to the sinner and imho, was one of the bravest yet kindest things they could have done. My friend honestly believed that his could have been a tool to help monkey become a repentant woman and want to end it. But she was NOT about it.

Two weeks later, the OW took my then H to a "marriage conference" at another neighboring church...under the guise of "I really want you to go home...and still I want you. see how great a mistress/wifey wanna be I am?" After attending the Christian marriage conference, my xh was spotted YET AGAIN by some friends from my sunday school class. Busted. she'd gone lower than I could imagine. My girlfriend and her H who saw them, both began crying as they walked out the doors of the church. My then H saw Carrie crying and then suddenly bolted out the door.

My xh suddenly next shows up at my home wtih tapes and dvd's and pamphlets about "marriage recovery"...all given from the ow. Says he wanted to see me the NEXT DAY and have a heart to heart talk. Apparently he after that, to do some "soul searching" went back over to OW's house and slept over there. HIs rationale? WARNING: TWISTED FOGGGY LOGIC HERE..."We were ending our affair. She knew it was wrong...and wanted us to have a chance to be happy you and I peach...but if things did not work out for us peach, she wanted to let me know she was wanting to be the right kind of wife. (wtf?)I slept with her b/c I was so sad for her."

I told him that this was the craziest crap I'd ever heard in my life. and that he can give the "wifey wanna be" all the crap back.. as I don't take gifts from an adulteress and destroyer of families. I said when he was finished with her, it would be over and done. Until that time I did not want to see him again.

I also called the ministers of BOTH churches she had visited and told them of this behavior which I considered ANTI FAITH AND ANTI FAMILY AND DISGUSTINGLY IMMORAL. They agreed. I asked if she visits their churches again, to have somebody lovingly speak to her and go to her with the issue...as it is written we are to go to our brother or sister if we have a problem with something...not hide it under the rug.

So you see....there are OP who also use the guise of faith to get their way and push their affairs ahead.

The life of a BS isn't one anybody wants to have. Not at all. But if you find yourself suddenly one, do you want to be one with a backbone? Or a lilly livered coward?

Faith to me is the strength to stand up and do what's right. I am not a Bible-thumper by far. I do have my faith. And sometimes I am not afraid to use it and take a swing at something I consider wrong or immoral...especially if that problem is DIRECTLY AFFECTING MY CHILD OR MY LITTLE FAMILY.

What also gets my gander up here are spouses WHO B/C OF WHATEVER FEAR OR RATIONALIZATION OR FAITH STUFF STAY IN PLAN A FAR TOO LONG TO HAVE A PROFOUND EFFECT IN ENDING AN AFFAIR. A protracted and seemingly too long plan A can turn a good thing into a doormat.

LM - I agree completely, in fact I think this goes for anybody who knows about an A, friend, co-worker, relative.....

I also find it funny, how you talk about "Christians" yet you believe in Karma.

Cute.

Karma....to me equals energy.

and if you put enough "negative energy" out there..aka sin...aka cruelty or harm towards others...that "negative energy"..will certainly find its way back to you.