Not that I have ever heard of, but if that happens there is a much bigger problem than adultery that needs to be addressed!

I think it's pretty easy to rationalize snooping if you find what you're looking to find (but hope you won't). If you find evidence of an affair it gives you the impetus at some point (one would hope) to confront the wandering spouse with what you know, how you know it, and what you plan to do about it.

This brings up the question of how do you know your spouse ISN'T having an affair? If you've installed the keyloggers, placed the tape recorder in the car, examined the cell phone records, etc. how long should you keep feeding the suspicion that something is going on? At one point does it become reasonable to examine your 'instincts' and see if something else is driving them rather than objective fact?

Also, if, after snooping to discover a suspected affair and you didn't find one, what would you say is the honesty requirement to disclose your actions to your spouse and let him/her know what you did, why you did it, and what you found?

On the one hand, if the spouse is having a well-hidden affair that might ensure that all evidence vanishes forever. On the other hand, if you were flat out wrong, aren't you learning to justify dishonesty on the basis that you really, really wanted to know?

When and for how long are you willing to lie to YOUR spouse on the basis of suspecting an affair you don't find or any other convienet excuse for doing something you know he/she wouldn't be enthusiastic about?

Note, this isn't aimed at anyone in particular - just musing that there must be some cases of snoopers that aren't finding anything wrong. And, that it might not be because there isn't anything to find, it might be because they're looking in the wrong places or wrong ways (as MelodyLane said "using ineffective measures") But, how long and how much dishonesty (snooping can be categorized as a lie by omission) can one ethically stomach in a relationship if a search for 'the truth' either fails or comes back inconclusive?



Mys

Your points speak to me. In my case I have good reason to believe that my instincts and intuition were on to something OTHER than an affair; they were most likely about how my wife and I had drifted apart and how that led to some changes in the way my wife was behaving towrds me - something which the two of us spoke about at some length recently.

My intuitive responses to her beheviour did include dreams about my wife having an affair but usually your subconscious doesn't speak to you literally.

Of course sometimes it does. But in my case I think the odds of that are low. And if I started doing some really intrusive snooping, and found absolutely nothing, I am afraid that I could really damage the relationship in many ways. First because I would feel guilty and that would manifest itself in my relationship with my W. Second because I would have pursued an obsession to no end to the exclusion of other things in my life that need attention. Third - what if it was detected? Holy smokes? Fourth, what if it wasn't detected, how to reveal what I have done?

And I think that my case, where the liklihood of finding something is low, is more common than the posting on this website will indicate. The people who post here are individuals who are in or were in a marital crisis. They are therefore more likely to be the ones with the intuitions that turned out to be true.

On the other hand, people like me probably do not hang around this forum that long, if they come at all.

In the result I do not think we have a representative statistical sample here.

By the way, if it turns out to be the case for me that I am one of those people who do not hang around this website too long, I must say that coming here has helped me enormously.

I don't snoop. Will NEVER snoop and don't need to snoop to see if my wife is or is not having an affair.
My wife has total freedom. She has the right to hold or withhold any information she wants to from me. (and she knows it) It is freedom that allows someone to love you. It only WORKS when it is of TOTAL choice. She is FREE to make her own choices in life regarding any part of her life. I am not her daddy. If she chooses to have an affair, then so be it. (I will never beat myself up by questioning whether I "met her needs") I already know I have done and will continue to do the best that I can each and every day. Her happiness is her responsibility and I can only hope I contribute to it. If she feels she would be happier without me in her life, then why in the world would I argue with her or try to get her to stay with me? That would be selfish on my part if I truly want her happy.

I would tell her that even though it is somewhat of a shock, that I will be fine and I am a big boy and I can handle it (and I WOULD) and I wish her the best and want her to be happy. I would tell her that I do not share my lovers, so this will most definitely be for the best that we take some time apart.

Then I WOULD do exactly that. I would move on. I WILL not snoop, cry, whine, beg, Plan A, PLan B or whatever else to try and make a person CHOOSE to be with me.

THAT attitude is why I have been so successful in my marriage and in my past dealing with all interpersonal and personal relationships in life. I have seen it again and again and again that people come back into a relationship much faster and WANTING to come back, WITH NO "withdrawal", when the BS nicely and gently lets the WS go. No anger, no lashing out, no snooping, no agenda to meet needs, no constantly telling them how you want to save the marriage, etc. (that don't work anyway while an affair is in process). This is what wakes the WS up. It changes their frame of thinking reference from "how do I get out of this marriage?", to more of a reference of "Have I gone too far?"

More people on here would have FASTER success and feel much better about themselves by learning how to have the correct self esteem when a person pulls away from you in love or marriage. Learning how to "agree" with the WS, which in turn works for you in getting them back... (for example) "I agree that our relationship has been stale", or "I agree that I have spent too much time on the computer", or "I agree that I am controlling. Maybe you are right, maybe we DO need some time apart. Maybe we should divorce if you love someone else."

When you agree you will find it fascinating how the WS suddenly slows down the divorce talk and suddenly starts telling you that you really didn't control all the time, and how it wasn't totally your fault for the marriage getting stale. They REVERSE theri original postions FASTER when you agree with them.

Tell them, "I understand what you are saying." I agree that maybe this IS best for us.

Then shut up. Go ahead and let them do all the work. Agreeing with them works much faster than all of this silly back and forth arguing and constant talking about "saving" the marriage. It only drive the WS AWAY. Why do we continue to do things that don't work?

They almost NEVER come back UNTIL you let them "think" that you have let go. This is why Plan B seems to work. It is the feeling of the WS realizing that you seem to have some backbone and some self esteem to tell them to "leave me alone". (the it hurts too much comments in the Plan B are unecessary and show low self esteem)




Marriage Builders concepts are fine. They do sometimes work. However, the facts point out that sometimes they do not work. There is far too much talk about "fog", Plan A, Plan B and snooping and meeting needs and yada yada yada. All the while the WS keeps right on having the time of their life with 2 PEOPLE fighting for them. How sad the issue of low self esteem that is not addressed on this site.

So, there are other ideas on how to either save a marriage or build a marriage or a relationship. Other ways that WORK, not only just as good, but sometimes better and FASTER.


I agree with many of the ideas and concepts with this site.

There ARE however, people who come to this site that need the type and kind of advice that isn't spot on with what others "opinions" are of marriage building and Marriage Builders. Many on here question motives of others that don't copy and promote each and every "Harley" concept to their specification and satisfaction. It is people like that who are in "the fog" also.

Reality shows again and again that the person who cares the least in a relationship is in charge. Reality shows again and again that it is WHEN the WS "PERCEIVES" (notice I didn't say you have to "feel" you have let go) that you have let go, is when you have the BEST chance and the most power to negotiate needed changes. AND NOT BEFORE. That is the reality I see over and over and over. Nothing on here has shown me different. As a matter of fact, it has only confirmed some of my own beliefs. Pursuing, chasing, hoping, waiting for a miracle, yada yada yada, does NOT GET THEM TO COME BACK STRONGLY. "PERCEPTION" OF LETTING GO is what does it, perception of a happy person, perception of someone with self esteem and self confidence. Someone who holds their head high and believes their self worth is not tied to any person or thing. It is within. It si the best way to have a healty and happy relationship. Once you get to that point, you never go back to the old way of wringing your hands and hoping and praying someone will love you back. It is only a preference. Nothing more.

keepmovn4wrd, you make alot of good points. When I posted my own concerns on this website, looking for advice, I was shocked by the near unananimity in favour of computer espionage in circumstances where I really had nothing more than a "feeling" that my W had strayed.

I am glad I stuck with my own ethical views on the matter and did not follow the advice (although I did snoop quite extensively, I must admit).

I think many here will disagree strongly with what you say but I hope you stick around b/c there is much to be said for having the benefit of contrary arguments in trying to discern the truth of any matter.

***Reality shows again and again that the person who cares the least in a relationship is in charge. Reality shows again and again that it is WHEN the WS "PERCEIVES" (notice I didn't say you have to "feel" you have let go) that you have let go, is when you have the BEST chance and the most power to negotiate needed changes. AND NOT BEFORE.***

I do agree with this.

I don't, however, think there is anything wrong with protecting yourself by "snooping." "Snooping" just lets you be sure what you are dealing with. Then you can let go as described above and feel sure that you've done the right thing.

Withdrawing from a relationship should not be done on suspicion or on vague feelings. Snooping gives the BS the hard evidence they need and can make the necessary withdrawal that much easier.
Mulan

Guys,

I have to add a thought to all this ethical "do you or don't you" snoop.

Real life example. In my case I felt something was wrong in my relationship with my wife for about 5 months. I could not put my finger on it. Tried to tell myself it was a number of other things other than infidelity.

Guts told me that it probably was. After I resolved to the fact that is probably was I started looking around to see what the heck was happening and within a couple of days found a secret cell phone my wife had hidden in our house. The secret cell phone was purchased by the OM for her to talk to. I only found this phone because of snooping.

That enabled us to try a go at working things out. Then my wife agreed to NC for a number of weeks. I again "felt" something was wrong. I was told a number of times that NC was in place. Why did I have to always believe the worst, but I still had that nagging feeling.

I decided to snoop again and within 2 days, a phone call on another secret cell phone revealed the truth. I was fortunate enough to find out about this rather than continue to believe a lie.

Now true NC has been in place with OM with my wife and I truly believe we are headed toward recovery. I do not believe that would have happened otherwise.

So I ask the question. If you have those "gut" instincts something is wrong, why not do some investigating yourself for a few dollars rather than paying $3000 - $5000 for a PI. Especially if you cannot afford a PI?

I can't imagine anyone would object to a PI on a suspected WS, so what is wrong with the BS doing some looking on their own.

WOL

BTW - I have personally been counselled by Steve Harley myself a number of times and I happen to know he believes in exactly what I just decribed above, for you see, if you don't kill the affair, nothing is going to happen. Nothing at all. Snooping, PI work, whatever is just the mechanisms to validate the affair if it does exist and then exposure is what begins to kill it.

And BTW one more time - This is my second time around and I wish I had done MB 5 yrs ago rather than what we tried before which was more along the lines of "let's learn to communicate, let's learn to argue constructively. Please spare me. Without learning to care for one another and avoiding things that take away from love feelings, there really is no true hope.

See IMHO, MB is all about how God intended on us caring for each other as Husband and Wife, and whether my Wife aggrees to recovery or not, I truely believe this is the Right Way to a successful marriage.

i snoop therefore i am.

If I could try to put my point as succinctly as possible, I think there is an ethical obligation for a spouse to relate the level of snooping to the level of suspicion, including both the strength of the intuition and anything objective you may have found.

To use an extreme example, if you hire a P.I. just because you feel a little strange about your relationship one morning, then you are behaving in a disproportionate way that is more likely to hurt than help.

I think this all follows from the answer to the title of this thread, and that answer truly is "Intuition can often be wrong."

And if it is wrong in your case, and especially if it is wrong because the "problem" is with you and not your spouse, you are going to have more than a little "'splaining to do" if you have wired your car to record conversations, hired somebody to tail W or H, and sent their underwear to a DNA lab.

Please Pelonious,

No one is advocating that you snoop, hire a PI or a DNA scientist just because you wake up one morning and feel a little funny.

Those of us who have been through it (BS status) know the difference between a funny feeling and a genuine gut feeling that something is wrong, ie an affair.

To be blunt, when SF, A, etc... is fine one week and then all of the sudden you don't do anything with your spouse in that area and the spouse appears to be in a trance all of the sudden, that is what the FBI would call a clue. In other words other things occur that validate your gut feelings.

And yes, I admit that as a BS I did some things that setup the enviroment for an affair to occur, but the affair take ownership of. I setup the conditions by not meeting her most important EN's, but the affair is something she has had to take ownership in. Thankfully she has and I praise God she has taken ownership, just as I have taken ownership in my neglect.

Truth be known, and I don't pretend to comment for my wife, but according to her very words the other day after her NC letter she wrote, she wished she had done it a long time ago. The NC letter that is.

She even said that the NC letter was more for her than me and I don't have a problem with that, but guess what, had I not snooped and discovered then that contact would be going on with the OM, and her NC letter would probably never had been written.

I love my wife very much and it is the love I have for her that caused me to snoop in the first place. Had I not loved her or cared, I would have said to heck with all this and moved on.

Fortunately, MB has given me hope and a new vision for myself and my marriage. I hope my wife one days sees that vision, but I can tell you that the principles of MB do work and unfortunately killing an affair is a must and to do so requires validation of an affair.

You don't try to destroy an affair that is not there.

WOL

I think that what it boils down to is that every person has to decide how much, if any, snooping they are comfortable with. For example, I would not be comfortable putting a keylogger on the computer, or tape recorders in my car (?)but I have no issue with checking the computer history....occasionally. But that's to keep tabs on my kids, not my spouse. He's welcome to go wherever online, I really don't care. My nature has never been to be jealous. I have his passwords, he has mine, but we're not checking up on each other. I don't have the inclination, he doesn't have the time.

And while I do buy into some Harley concepts, I do not think that they can be applied across the board or in every situation. There are always mitigating factors, call them gray areas. To fail to recognize this *is* to be in a "fog".

So far as intuition being reliable, I think that some people are suspicious and some are not. Some people see more than others, some people see things that aren't even there. So it's not a case of intuition being reliable or not so much as some people are more perceptive than others.

What are they? I don't see any.

WOL

I'm gonna take a different tack on snooping...

Up front...I'm an advocate on it. What's that silly Dr. Phil quote again? "Those who have nothing to hide...hide nothing."?

My wife has total access to my computer. I have only a few passwords that I use for personal use...my wife knows them all. She knows of every account I have...and while she doesn't have the capability of getting into my work stuff without my permission, she's more than welcome to ask anytime she likes and I'll gladly open everything up for her to view. Nothing to hide.

Up until the affair, I had that same access and courtesy from her. Nothing to hide.

I had those 'gut feelings' for about 3-4 weeks prior to d-day...which amazingly enough was almost EXACTLY how long their friendship had gone from friends to 'in love'.

And the final thing that caused me to snoop? I SAW her trying very hard to close a chat window with OM without my seeing it. Those 'gut feelings' prompted me to stay in the room where I could see her monitor...and she kept discreetly checking over her shoulder to see if I was watching...and finally closed it when I DID deliberately turn away.

That night I started 'snooping'. Hacked her IM account and enabled logging. About 5 days later I was able to go back and look at the logs...no need for me to say further what was there other than to say that was the morning of d-day.

If I HADN'T snooped...it would have gone on...they were just getting to the point where they wanted to see if what they felt was 'real in person'. It WOULD have gone to PA.

Here's my other point.

I continued to snoop even after we started to reconcile...and found that she was still emailing him. Confronted her on it, and got her to send the final NC letter. Which, btw, she violated just a few days later by sending him a Father's Day e-card. But...not knowing the extent of my 'snooping ability', she actually broke down that night and admitted it to me. She didn't know if she'd get caught or not, but she admitted it. That was the LAST contact between them.

So, after all of this...how did she regain my trust? After all the repeated lies, the broken NC, etc...how did she get my trust back?

By ASKING me to snoop. By telling our MC that she now understood why I snooped...not to catch her...but to reassure myself that she WAS trustworthy now. It was a way that she could SHOW me that she was being honest.

Trust is EARNED...NOT given. When you first met your wife, did you just automatically give her your house keys, wallet, etc...? Nope...but after having DEMONSTRATING her trustworthiness to you over time, she EARNED the right to have access to those things. Just as YOU earned the same rights from her.

And when trust is BROKEN...it has to be RE-earned. Not just freely given again. Would you trust a drug addict who stole money from you with your wallet? Nope...but if the drug addict got clean, and repeatedly demonstrated to you that you CAN trust them, you could eventually feel comfortable doing so.

How else can a FWS earn their trust back, other than allowing(encouraging) their BS to verify their trustworthiness? Personally, I have no clue.

Marriages should NOT be based on secrecy. They SHOULD be based on trust...but if that trust is broken or shaken, then how do you reaffirm or rebuild that trust?

Something I want to ask you guys having to do with my own personal situation, something which relates to this whole topic of instinct and intuition. The background if you are interested is on a thread I started that is also on GQII.

Recently, I felt relieved when I read a post on another thread here somewhere that an ongoing A is like a huge black hole that distorts all efforts to build up your account in S's love bank. Whatever you do won't be good enough until the A is truly over.

In my case, there appears to be a great response from W to my daily efforts to meet her ENs. She has gone to great lengths, actually, to respond in kind, and the only EN not being met now (if it can be called an EN at all) is my EN to relieve this still gnawing feeling I have that something is being kept from me.

That being said, my question is this: Whether or not there was an A, is it likely that a spouse would be making such truly sincere and strenuous efforts at rebuilding a marriage that has drifted if the A is still going on?

The point of the question is this: If there was an A in the past that has ended, I will want to know whether or not my instinct was onto something in the future, but I really feel it would be counterproductive if I knew right now. If it is going on right now, though, I want to know right now. The current positive situation, though, makes me intuit that if anything did ever happen, its not happening now.

I can understand that. I can also tell you from my own personal recovery as well as seeing that of many others that the vast majority of BS's have one other 'burning question' that HAS to be answered for them to truly begin moving down the path to recovery.

"Will it happen AGAIN?"

And that ties into the whole snooping/not snooping post I wrote earlier. And...if it DOES happen again, how will I know and what will I do about it?

If you are comfortable with where your M is at now and where it is currently headed, that's fine. It's your marriage, and your life. Advice here is free...and freely taken or ignored as well. If you believe that you're taking the best course of action, then by all means do so. The advice and suggestions you've recieved here were based on our experiences...your situation may be different. We truly have no way to know that for sure...all we can do is base our advice on what we've been through and what we've seen.

I'm not saying that you HAVE to spy on your wife. What I AM saying is that if you extend the right to privacy to someone who has abused it in the past, you can expect to run the risk of being hurt again. But, it's also possible that you won't be...we can't tell you anything for certain.

As far as feeling guilty on the spying, well that's up to you and your conscience. I can tell you that I never once felt bad for snooping on my wife. But that's me...not you.

Good luck my friend. I truly do hope that everything proceeds well for you and that your marriage recovers beautifully.