Suzet, I did call Dr. Harley on the radio today and he clarified what he meant. Please read my post above. I am hoping others also heard the call and can add their comments.

One thing that surprised me was his ADAMANCE that the children be notified. He stated that exposure to HIM as a child was a lifechanging experience that caused him to remain faithful as an adult. So, he is very much in favor of telling the children.

I didn’t notice this post (it was send after I’ve started responding).

Anyway, thanks for the phone call you’ve made – it indeed give some clarification on this matter. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And Suzet, I got a free book out of it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am glad you brought up the subject, though, now we have some much needed clarification. Thanks.

That at least clarifies where your coming from on the issue.
Thanks for clueing me into that info.

I too fall on the side that EACH Individual should ultimately have ALL the Pertinent information involving their Own Life.

What Choices they make after such revelations or discoveries is then their own responsibility.

In your case Gimble,
if your W has been given the opportunity to learn more and has declined,
Then I have no issue with that.

Why?
As it was her choice to reject any more.
To me no different then any other detail.

However,
if it was intentionally hidden (or she was otherwise mislead) .....then I disagree with your approach.

As to your earlier 30 yr example:
Well,
since this website is only around 7 yrs old .....then the longest anyone could be here is the same amount of time.

Also the majority of the folks STILL posting here are in the 4yr or Less category.

So lets stick to that for the moment.

So if they are here and dealing with a current (or very recent past) Affair,
I'm confident the Overwhelming majority of BS Would want to know if there were others [or a longer time frame of the current one in question].

But those are just quibbling over the crumbs.

As its been stated on thread after thread (when this topic comes up) ......it NOT up to the person doing the transgression to "decide" for another person what is relevant or not relevant in that other person's life.
Its should Never be left to the perpetrators discretion,
Cause left to their own devices, the great majority of WS's would Rarely divulge ANYTHING.

Your position is in the same vein as the WS deciding "what" the BS Should or Should Not KNOW at Any Stage fo the A.
Honestly (with that reasoning),
If its good say 4-5 yrs later .....why not 1 or 2 ......or 2 months or last week ????

IMO,
your sliding down the slippery slope when you begin to say its OK to hide this type information.
[Be it time lines, details or as in your case entire A's]

So now we begin to argue about who's time line is correct (a day, week, month, year, decade????) , and the focus is taken off the Core Issue ........that being we ALL deserve to make our decisions for ourselves (without arbitrary choices and values coming in from others) .......who may or may not be looking out for OUR best interests ......but more than likely their own.
(Sadly even with our own S's who've Proven our well being is NOT always their first priority).

I'd say that in this area of my life, my W has Given up her privilege to Make these types of judgments for me.
However uncomfortable for her .......I'll do my own thinking these days.

Again Gimb,
if YOU gave your wife the opportunity and she said "No, that's enough ....I don't need nor want to learn anymore" ......then you basically satisfied your obligation.

As to your last couple of posts,
perhaps lets not dissolve in Clintonesque like nonsense about What IS "is".

The absolute in question here on this board is Has there been an A or NOT?
And whom has the right to know about it (and how much).

Pretty basic and pretty straight forward questions.
No need to muddy the waters with a bunch of hypothetical OTHER Truths.

I also heard the radio show today.

He said that this was the case of affairs that had He been over 3-4 years. He did not say that affairs that were more recent should not be exposed.

He did say that in circumstances where the affair was several years ago, if both spouses and the children (older adolescent 15 and above) know, that there is no need to expose further. He clarified by that by saying that if the ws and op were notlikely to cross paths.

He did say that in churches and workplaces, it was important to expose.

I was surprised by his stand that teens should be told. He said that was because he knew about infidelity in his family and it helped him to take special precautions to avoid that in his family.

I find that interesting, because that is what my FWS and I always said. We saw it in our families and I thought we were taking those precautions. We messed up.

Anyway, my summary would be that even if it has been a few years and the WS might have continued non-affair contact with the op, that the affair should be exposed.
The OP's spouse and older teens should be exposed regardless of the time frame.

Thanks Mel for sticking your neck out there.

Scary stuff out there in public like that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Hi, TopRope

Quote:
==============================
That at least clarifies where your coming from on the issue.
Thanks for clueing me into that info.
==============================

Actually, no.

Where I am coming from on the issues, I have clearly stated previously. I only cite my own personal experiences, and my observations of others experiences, as examples of non one-size-fits-all stamped situations.

I am intelligent enough to look at my own situation with analytical eyes.

The rest of your statements are spent boxing me, so I see no reason to take them on a point by point basis.

My primary issue days ago was with how the Penalty's were handled, both by the other man's wife, and by some here. You can look up my post regarding that and an earlier post on a thread concerning truth, if you are so inclined.

You mentioned sliding down slippery slopes, I think that the one where rote application of specifics rather than generalities, when applied to individual situations, is one of them.

I do believe that affairs are uniquely common in the human condition. The Harley's have built their business on that assumption. I also believe (and I bet the Harley's do as well), that application of certain points maintained by many here, to all situations, is simply inappropriate.

Thanks for your comments,
Gimble

So after all this discussion, if my wife moves out because she can't stand me, and I cannot find any evidence the affair is continuing, there is no need to expose further?

Terps,

If your wife is/was involved in an affair and she now moves out for whatever "reason" I'm willing to bet the affair is ongoing and exposure IS needed.

I am pretty sure she is still deep in withdrawal right now. I would want to give her some time to get thru that. Then if I can find out the affair is ongoing, I would expose to try and kill it. Until then, what is the need to harm her for no reason? Right now, she can't stand me because she blames me for the problems in our marriage. Exposing when I have no proof the affiar is ongoing would just make her hate and resent me more.

terpsfan, yours is exactly the kind of situation that Dr Harley spoke about. He said that public exposure should take place in high risk situations where there is a chance of the lovers getting back together. You already know that your wife is stalking the OM and probably moving out for the sole purpose of getting together with him again. That is IF she has even stopped contact, which is doubtful. So while you are wondering why she wants to move out to get some "space" she is planning on resuming her affair.

Why not call Dr Harley yourself or set up a counseling session with his son, Steve?

Melody Lane:

I don't think my situation is high risk. The OM moved two hours away. His wife knows about the situation and is keeping a close eye on him. I have checked everything possible and I do not think there has been any contact since 1/1/06.

You said that if the affair is not ongoing, there may be something else to try. What did you mean?

I do appreciate and value your input.

terps, instead of doing this on two threads, can we keep it to your own thread? I will post over there.

An interesting thread.

As some may recall exposure to OMs long term GF was the first nail in the coffin of Squid's affair.

You may also reall I chose deliberately not to expose to my children NOR to Squids dying mother.

I have read this thread and nothing I have seen makes me think I did wrong.

I told my kids that Mom had been spending far too muc time in her sport and with a person that I strongly disapporoved of. They (WONDERFULLY!) dived into the battle on their oen behafl and started pestering Squid about their feelings of neglect owing to her hug einvestment of time in Karate (and OM) to the point where Squid spat "you've put them up to this ! Using the kids against me is LOW !. I think the kids had at least as much an effect on the ending of Squids affair as I did. Maybe I did expose to them in a way they could relate to ? I dunno. I DO feel if I had explaine dto thm that Mommy was having sex with OM it would have traumatised them and possibly made it very hard for thme to take Squid back. I sunno. Whats done is sone and I have no regrets about hat I did.

Regarding Squids Mom - well, she was an old lady in her time of dying. When I ran her home etc she would tell me what a lovely son in law I was, how I was like a son to her, and that Squid was the apple of her eye.

WHY would I send that woman to her grave disappointed ? WHY ?

By he time she got immobile, Squid's affair was well over and we were working , living and loving together once more. Nan saw a genuine united loving front between us.

There may have come a time when exposing to her would be the right thing, but once again I deliberately chose NOT to, and I do not regret my decision.

Nan blessed Kayla on the day she died as the loving, righteous daughter she had once again become by that time.

I would not change a thing I did regarding exposure in that time.

A fantastic weapon in my experience , bets best as a sniper rifle, not a dirty bomb. Just IME.

Bob, I agree very much with the exposure you did. The whole point is to use your judgement to do what it takes to end the affair and ensure it stays ended. Going beyond that is unneccessary, IMO. The bottom line is that everyone has to use their own judgement about exposure.

I was very surprised at Dr. Harley's ADAMANCE about exposing to the children, regardless. He felt like this exposure was critical; as critical as exposure to the spouses. But again, that is up for every person to decide for themselves. For me, as a child whose father was an adulterer, I agree with his stance. The lies about my father's adultery caused huge problems for me and I think it would have been much better had someone told me the truth. I deeply resent that I was lied to about this. The effects of these lies still effect me to this day.

As far as telling her dying mother, I was a similar situation with my father, who just died and had to make a hard decision just like you. I have some information about the possible parentage of one of my sisters that he should rightfully know. I made a decision to not tell him before he died and I don't regret that.

Hi mel !! I hope all is well with you my friend...

I'm pretty pleased that you agree with my exposure and you all but physcally kicked my [censored] until I did it ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thing is mel, I fully understand why/how exposure to OP spouse is RIGHTEOUS and supportive of ending an affair. but, I feel that it ma actually inhibit recovery if the kids are told. what if I'd told my kids when Squid was just about as spiteful as any WS has ever been - within six month she was VERY sorry and dedicating herself to me and the kids like not in years.

I can't se a parent rescuing their relationship and trust with children after being exposed as an adulterer, unless of course the WS leaves home and shack up with OP when its unavoidable.

I dunno. I know what I did worked for me , my kids, Squid, AND OM GF , OM YS and even ( *spit!) OM.

BTW OM GF told their son about his dad's affair and he would have no relationship with him. OM was finally driven into IC by this final hurt in his life. I haven;t spoken with OM GF now for months but at that time YS was still really hurt and OM was devastated.

F'k OM , but every son should be proud of his dad I think. I'm sorry for the kid.

Katie Mae, I understand your struggle. My EA was never revealed to XOM’s W as well. If you read my signature line you’ll see I was involved in a e-mail friendship which became inappropriate and beginning stages of EA. The betrayal was mostly in my thoughts and feelings and the EA never reached the stage where we exchanged verbal, written and/or physical expressions of love towards each; discussed our spouses/marriages; had secret meetings and exchange gifts etc. For these reasons (and with the advice of my personal counselor at the time) my H & I decided not to tell OM’s W.

Although I’ve become emotionally very attached and attracted to OM and have gone through intense withdrawal for many months, I don’t know if OM experienced the same level of emotional attachment and inappropriate feelings towards me. I do know that XOM never viewed our involvement as an EA of any sort, but only as ‘close friendship’. I think this was the case because it was never necessary for him to take the consequences of the inappropriate friendship in his own marriage and towards his own spouse and I must admit it bother me from time to time that OM’s W never had the chance to know the truth (especially during the times he contact me and try to resume the friendship – the last contact was 2 weeks ago). However, my H (and previous counselor who are now one of my greatest friends and confidants) thinks the type of our involvement and the fact that it didn’t developed to a serious level, didn't justify telling his W.

If I was OM’s W, I would definitely like to know about my H’s inappropriate actions and friendship at the time… However, from my H’s and previous counselor’s POV, I can understand how telling OM’s W would probably result in unnecessary damage & pain to OM’s W and M, since our friendship crossed the boundaries into the beginning stages of an EA and never progressed to adultery & serious betrayal. However, taking into account that I've developed very inappropriate feelings and emotional attachment towards OM, I know I’ve committed “adultery of the heart”. And if I read all the post of FWW’s, I recognize that I’ve experienced almost the same level and intensity of pain & withdrawal as someone who was involved in a full blown EA and/or PA.

I know emotionally men are wired up differently than women and don’t struggle as much as women with withdrawal from an emotional attachment (especially if the A didn’t progress to a physical level), and this is probably part of the reason why my H and counselor felt it wouldn’t be a good idea to tell his W. I can understand this in some way, but I still don’t feel 100% convinced that my situation didn’t justify telling XOM’s W – maybe because I’m a strong believer in total honesty & openness and because I know that if I was his W, I would definitely want to know…

There was another area in my life I once struggled with revealing the truth, but this situation was more complex and had nothing to do with infidelity. You and others who are interested can read all about it HERE. Although I’m a strong believer in revealing the truth, I realize that in some instances there might be exceptions on this rule where revealing the truth will not be appropriate or healthy (as I’ve experienced on the link above).

Suzet,
I'm glad you started this thread because I've had some questions as well regarding exposure.

I don't know if you remember much of my story, but I did have a physical meeting with the first OM in my situation. This has occurred over 2 years ago, but I am confident that his wife never knew anything of this or that we had an online affair as well. I have struggled with wanting to let this man's wife know the truth, but my husband doesn't feel it was necessary. The main reason he did not want for me (or him) to call and let the OM's wife know of the affair is that he is concerned of possiblity of this woman calling our house and causing havoc in our home.

What do you do in a situation such as this? Do you risk having this OM and his wife call our house and possibly our daughters would answer the phone? Is it really necessary since it is long over? I really think the OM's wife needs to know, but at this point I think too much time as lapsed.

Also, my husband and I have NEVER told a soul besides what I have shared here on MB and our marriage counselor. We would NEVER tell our daughters. We see no reason at all to tell them and have them view our marriage in that light. Why would we destroy them in the process when we have so much hurt to heal ourselves?

My husband NEVER wants us to reveal either of my A's to anyone for reasons of protecting our marriage. If we told anyone, how are we to prevent rumors and stories being spread beyond who we told? Also, my H is on staff at our church and it would be VERY difficult for him to face anyone in our church knowing this about our marriage. For my husband as a man, it would be very humiliating for anyone to know this. He feels he would be viewed as a failure as a husband.

I'm not sure I agree with Harley that in all cases that the affair should be exposed to close friends and family....especially if both spouses do not agree.

2BeNormal,

Yes, I remember your story and I also remember how difficult it was for you to not be able to expose to your close circle of family and friends in order to have a support network for yourself.

I don’t agree with your H’s decision that the A should not be exposed to the OM’s W.

Yours is a difficult situation and I can understand your struggle with this… What can you do if you and your H can’t reach an agreement about this and POJA about it? I don’t know but I hope others will post and give advice on your situation.

Take care,
Suzet

2bNormal, what Harley said that is that wider spread exposure should take place in high risk situations where there is a risk of resumption of the affair. He said if the lover is removed from the situation, then further exposure should be POJA'd after both spouses have been notified. Exposure to the OP's spouse is NOT a matter of POJA, though.

He stated that in ALL CASES, and I agree with him 200%, that both betrayed spouses should be notified. There is simply no good reason to not do it. The other spouse has a RIGHT and a NEED to know so that he/she can protect himself from her WS and the OP. This exposure also decreases the risk of a resumption of the affair if there are two people watching from both ends.

I view it like this: if my neighbor's bookkeeper had embezzled money from him, I would not hesitate for a minute to warn him. It is the same premise in adultery, and I am baffled why anyone would not this. It is simply an act human decency to warn someone they are being harmed behind their back. I realize that folks make up all manner of rationalizations and scare tactics to prevent exposure, but none are reasonable.