I honestly ask this question. In my country you have a legal or civil marriage and you can or not get married in church. To be married in church you have to be legally married, but obviously the religious marriage is not mandatory.

Since in my opinion, legal marriage is necessary to organize society and to recognize ownership of "assets" (including children) belonging to the married couple, I am not interested at this moment in a legal divorce.

But I am interested in a "religious" divorce because being the wife of a WS who lives with OW is getting to be very difficult.

Can anyone help me with this?

BTW I'm catholic.

You can get an annulment

No, I don't want an annulment because I don't want to annul my marriage. It existed and was. I want a divorce from God.

I do not regret getting married and I have tried with all my heart and my strength to keep this marriage alive, but I have to be prepared for WH to not want it. My deadline is October when the 2 years since d day will be up. After that I would like a religious divorce so as not to be WH's wife anymore.

cc - "Render unto Caesar."

There is no "divorce from God," there is only His allowance for a Faithful Spouse to divorce an unfaithful spouse. One can argue that there there is a "spiritual divorce," but I happen to believe that there are many people who "call" themselves Christians, but who have never actually had a saving conversion. They will be among those on the last day who Christ WILL "divorce" finally, completely, eternally with the dreadful words, "Away from me, I never knew you."

An unrepentant adulterer WILL NOT be in heaven, is NOT saved, and will be excluded from eternity with God. The "civil or legal" marriage is just what it says it is...instituted by "Man" and not by God. But the "authority" has been given BY God because God gives us "Rulers and Authorities" too.

So when your 2 years are up, or whenever you want, you can "Separate" and remain legally married or you can Divorce. An annullment is NOT necessary should you ever seek to remarry because Christ has definitively said that the Faithful Spouse who divorces will NOT be committing adultery herself/himself if they divorced because of "marital unfaithfulness."

Is anyone talking to your husband about God, his faith, and being obedient to God instead of willfully sinning against God?

God bless.

Scripturally you have the right to divorce (though God does hate a divorcing). Divorcing on the grounds of adultrey exists because this is the one sin made against the spouse and God. To break one's marriage vow is to break the vow made before God against one's spouse. So when the Xws asks forgiveness it is up to the faithful spouse to give it or not. The catch is once you do, it is a clean slate. So don't just forgive w/o a plan.

AS far as individual religions go...... I defer that to those in your faith. Seems this is where religions tend to differ from the scriptures. The scriptures never change in their message but how it is interpretated and implemented tends to vary.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks for your answers.

Some things are clearer now, but I still don't understand if it is possible to get a "religious divorce". What I mean is can I undo (divorce) the marriage in the same order I did it? Can a priest say the wrods "I divorce thee ..." so I can be divorced in God's eyes?

That's what I need.

The "legal" divorce is a man made thing andI will let WH do that one.

How does one do this in practice?

And no one is talking to WH about God. On teh contrary, MIL who goes to Church everyday invited WH and OW to spend Xmas with her!

cc,

I don't think the Roman Catholic Church recognizes divorce because divorce violates the teaching of God, specifically, that a marriage must continue until the death of a spouse. An annulment recognizes that there is something that "invalidates" the marriage. To my best knowledge, infidelity is considered by the Catholic Church to be a justification for annulment.

It appears that the progression would be annulment followed by a civil divorce.

cc46 ~ as a Catholic, there is no recognition of a God sanctioned divorce.

Catholics and Protestants differ on this interpretation of scripture, so while ForeverHers may be offering you the Protestant response, it is most emphatically not the Catholic response.

There is a very good article on the issue here:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007bt.asp

This is why the Catholic Church considers remarriage after civil divorce to be an act of adultery, and a mortal sin.

Regardless, the Church recognizes that sometimes civil divorce is required, for legal protection and financial support. However, civil judges, legal courts have no power to dissolve the bonds of a sacramental marriage. In the eyes of the Church, you are still married after a civil divorce. You may not remarry.

The same is true for a civil unions. Civil unions are not recognized as a valid, sacramental marriage. However, before a Catholic remarriage, one must go through an annulment process to have the civil union official declared invalid before remarriage.

Bramblerose, no doubt you are correct in the fact that I am a Protestant. There are many things that I think the RCC has "gotten wrong," and this is one of them. The RCC response to this is "annullment or nothing." The machinations to which they go in order to say that the "marriage never existed" is quite extraordinary at times.

However, their position is baseless and centered in "man's reasoning" rather than the clear, definitive, Word of God.

Jesus put it plainly, unambiguously, and with crystal clarity in Matthew 19:9; [color:"red"]"I (Jesus Christ, the Son of God) tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, amd marries another woman commits adultery."[/color] (NIV, emphasis added)

What the RCC is focusing on are passages like Mark 10:11; He answered, [color:"red"]"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery."[/color](NIV) and Luke 16:18; [color:"red"]"Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery." [/color](NIV)

While these passages might appear to be "in conflict" with each other, Jesus clarified the distinction in his answer recorded in Matthew to the Pharisees who sought to "Trap Him" in this question just as the RCC is trying to "trap" married couples. They take "part" of the truth and bend it to suit their purposes. The clarification that our LORD gave supercedes ALL other interpretations because HE IS LORD. What Jesus said was:

[color:"red"]"So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."[/color] "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"
Jesus replied, [color:"red"]"Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I (Jesus Christ, the Son of God) tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, amd marries another woman commits adultery."[/color] (Matthew 19:6-9 NIV, emphasis added)

Jesus made it clear that the rampant and "easy divorcism" of the Jews was WRONG. It was given to them by the same man who "smote the rock," a fallen and sinful man and NOT God Himself. God the Son, Jesus, plainly stated that in HIS view (and HIS view IS the one that "counts"), the EXCEPTION on the "married for life and do not separate and divorce" is MARITAL UNFAITHFULNESS.

NO ONE who is a true child of God can sin with impunity and continue sinning against God in willful defiance....or they are kidding themselves that they ARE a Christian. They could just as easily believe they are a DUCK but they won't DO anything that would "define what a Duck is." So they can call themselves a duck all they want, but that does NOT make them a duck. OUR WILL, chosen by us to be surrendered to God's will despite any FEELINGS we might have or be struggling with, IS the grateful response of a Christian who HAS recognized their sinful state and sought repentance THROUGH Jesus Christ. Anything less is just a form of "play acting" or "going along with the crowd because it looks good.

To this statement you made: "This is why the Catholic Church considers remarriage after civil divorce to be an act of adultery, and a mortal sin," I would ask a simple question for consideration and response. Is adultery, or any "mortal sin," UNFORGIVEABLE by God? If not, where is the "mortal" nature of the sin? The implication of "mortal sin" is that it "damns the person to he11."


((((( cc46 )))))


cc, I can't "account" for people who "play at being at a Christian and don't believe in obedience to God's commands. The fact is that there are MANY of them who think they are a Christian, who will be told on the last day, "Away from me, you evildoers. I never knew you."

But your question, "How does one do this in practice?"
is most pertinent and directly on target. So let me give you God's most direct and "on target" response for putting this into practice to help restore a fellow believer who has strayed into sin and become entangled in it's snare.

[color:"red"]"If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that "every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen to the chruch, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. "I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven (added for clarification: including marriage).
Again, I (Jesus) tell you that if two or more of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. For where two or three of you come together in my name, there am I with them."[/color] (Matthew 18:15-20 NIV, emphasis added)

This passage in Matthew is followed IMMEDIATELY with Jesus' teaching on forgiveness and how WE are to forgive fellow believers who have sinned against us. It also comes with a warning about being "unforgiving" to fellow believers after God has forgiven us of OUR sins.

Just remember, cc, that Forgiveness of a repentant sinner is required by God as our response to what He has forgiven us of. BUT we are NOT required to "live with," or be "married to," even a repentant Wayward Spouse. IF we choose that path, God will help us there too. But if we cannot bring ourselves to live with the ENORMITY of the sin against "our own one flesh," then God grants you the peace of mind that surpasses all understanding. And that Peace of God is that Divorce in this instance is "okay" with God and that He wants you to have Peace of Mind both with His allowance for divorce and for your relationship with Him, and perhaps even with another believer in the future who might become your husband.

A "Christian marriage" is supposed to be MORE than "in name only." It is to REFLECT God's love for us and the marriage of the Lamb to the Church. There is ONLY the "narrow gate" to salvation and one CANNOT go through the narrow gate and then follow a life of the "wide gate." Self-delusion is NOT the same thing as TRUTH and TRUTH in Christ will not allow one to sin with impunity against God. Sin will ALWAYS be met with conviction by the indwelling Holy Spirit in the life of a true believer. The simple fact is that Christians CANNOT "serve two masters."



Okay, cc46, let's "get practical" for a minute. GOD is partner to every Christian marriage. God Himself enters into the covenant of marriage with the Bride and Groom. God is faithful to ALL of His covenants and will not break them. BUT WE CAN! We can choose to reject Him. Christ has been rejected since the beginning by the vast majority. Even Adam and Eve, rejected obedience to God in place of "what feels good."

You must remember that God is ALSO a "God of Peace." He will NOT require you remain in an unholy marriage. THAT is why Jesus made the "exception." Not so "Man" could twist it into an excuse to do whatever he wants to do, but in order to protect the Faithful Spouse in the covenant of marriage WITH God. God can no more remain "married" to an unrepentant sinner than He can admit everyone into Heaven regardless of whether or not they have accepted Jesus Christ. It simply does not work that way. It is NOT God who ends the marriage, it is the human who chooses to end it with God(misusing our God-given gift of Free Will), and THAT human is the one who engages in adultery against God and spouse. I could expand that a bit, because there ARE other forms of "marital unfaithfulness" that also qualify as "adultery" against God and Spouse, or perhaps more correctly, "unfaithfulness" against God and Spouse (i.e., Physical/Mental abuse), but for now we will stay focused on YOUR dilemna, Physical and Emotional Adultery by your husband.

"Can a priest say the words "I divorce thee ..." so I can be divorced in God's eyes?"

The short answer is "no." Not unless it meets the criteria established BY God. "Marital Unfaithfulness," "two or more witnesses," "done 'in and by' believers acting in the will of God and according to God's purpose." The AUTHORITY for, not the mechanics of, divorce rests with God. THAT is why Jesus gave us the "exception" that is "condoned, countenanced, and accepted, by God."

To wit, God has "granted" authority to those in "rule" in our lives, be it State or Church, so long as they are acting in concert with HIS will, to perform and "bind or loose upon earth" that which is in accord with God.

God bless.

ForeverHers,

With all due respect, cc46 is a Roman Catholic and her question was framed as a Catholic. Regardless of any illogical or unfounded distinction between divorce and annulment, the fact remains that if cc46 is to continue to receive the Eucharist and generally be a good Catholic, she must follow Catholic doctrine.

Post deleted by Cherished

ForeverHers ~ I will not debate scripture with you. You are free to believe as you like.

I gave cc46 the Catholic answer, not the Protestant answer, as she is Catholic.

In response to the question about mortal sin - the Catholics believe that mortal sins are forgivable by God. Mortal sins are serious willful acts that separate us from the grace of God unless we willingly ask for His forgiveness.

If one willingly and knowingingly committs a mortal sin and does not seek out God's forgiveness through the sacrament of Penance, one may not receive the Eucharist.

Thank you all very much. I have a lot to think about. I knew I could find answers here in MB.
Eventually I will also have to speak to my priest. But he seems to have little time to spare and I feel so ignorant I want to be at least a little informed before I discuss the situation with him.

We also know that there are many positions of certain topics even inside the same Church. This is a fact. I know that some priests here will not baptize children from marriages that have not been sancioned by the Church, but others will.

So again, thanks alot. I knew MB was my best source to start my quest. This is a journey.

wow!! "foreverhers" that was heavy....i believe RIGHT ON!

regardless of a persons faith, your srciptures are the same in the catholic bible or protestant bible...tough to argue!!

i have always believed that you heve to "beware of any religion that seeks to control you or tell how or what to think" (that includes Islam, Catholosim, Protestant)

God is actually a very simple concept, if you believe and accept him, it's "us" that make God complicated!!

i found your post to be wise and right on!

Not entirely.

Foreverhers may be entirely capable of reading scriptures in the original Hebrew and Greek for all I know, (and maybe you are, too) but not many of us here on MB are. I know I'm not. So when you are talking about the Catholic Bible or the Protestant Bible, for most of us you are probably talking about those Bibles as translated into English, not as written in the original languages. The Catholic Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate, whereas Protestant Bibles largely are translated from the Greek Septaguint. In addition, we don't even have the orginal versions of the books of the Bible-the oldest versions we have date from the second century AD and those are just fragments-the oldest complete books date back to something like the fourth century AD. They are copies of copies of copies, etc, each made by hand, and there are many variations from copy to copy. Bart D. Ehrman, in his book Misquoting Jesus, says that "There are more differences among our manuscripts than there are words in the New Testament" (p. 10), although he does later add that the most of the differences are not significant. Many are, though.

When the books were written, they were not only not divided into chapters and verses, they weren't even divided into separate words. They were written something like, "Godisnowhere" or "LastnightIsawabundanceonthetable". Each of those sentences can be read at least two ways. One of the differences between Protestant and Catholic theologies, the question of whether there is a Purgatory, in part hinges on whether a comma should come after "day" or after the first "you" in the statement, "I tell you this day you will be with me in Paradise."

With respect to divorce, my Jewish friends tell me that the translation of Malacchi 2:16 as "For I hate divorce" is a horribly inaccurate translation. Here is a link to the Judaica Press Complete Tanach translation:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article.asp?AID=16220


Women by those days were not able to divorce their husbands, so if their husbands took up with a new wife, the first wives were unable to get a divorce and find someone new. Hence the "If you hate [her], send [her] away"-if you don't want her as a wife anymore, divorce her and let her be free to find someone who does. Quite a difference from "For I hate divorce". As I said, I don't read Hebrew myself, so I don't pretend to know what the correct reading is but apparently it's nowhere near as clear as you might think from reading only Christian translations into English. That's just one example of how scholars from different religious traditions translate verses differently, with corresponding implications for theology.

No such thing hon as a spiritual divorce. Nah. You gotta go thru the legal motions also.

My Catholic friends first got the legal divorce and at same time, began process for Catholic divorce/annullment also.

They had to show and fill out much paperwork showing that xh did not fulfill the sacrament of marriage and broke the vows in such and such ways.

As for me? The day I found out I was legally divorced, the spiritual one happened for me also. In my heart. My burden I'd carried...the one of the ws...his actions..his sins...his dishonor and disrespect was suddenly NOT MINE TO DEAL WITH. That day I laid my H to rest and gave him completely over to God.

I suggest that you do the same if this goes that far. There is only so much one can bear...only so many fires you can walk thru until the flames begin to burn you...only so much you can take. And God knows that. That is why it is NOT A SIN to divorce an unrepentant spouse. And why it's ok we can remarry.

My Lord took my burden from me that day. He saw it was too heavy. That I'd carried the burden of healing my family ALONE FOR A YEAR AND A HALF...and that I'd been brought to my knees. He knew it was too much. And that day He healed me. As it was the only way out.

like i said..."beware of any religion that tries to control you" i never knew God was so complicated that you needed a doctorate to understand it!!!

John 3:16 makes it sound pretty simple....

too bad alot of so called men of the cloth (priests) forget what it says about hurting children and pedophelia...thats who i would want to take "marriage counselling" from.

religion and politics are tough subjects to find common ground or agreement on...sorry!

Well, see, you learn something new every day.