Jen,
I haven't really contributed to your threads here, we have only 'met' in passing.

I know this has opened up a well of emotions and fears for me, a BS. It has also opened up several discussions between my FWS and myself.

You made a remark about Pep calling it a Drink Date. Is that not what it was?

Bumping into him in the grocery store was an accident. Going to get coffee took an effort you had to leave the store with him. You had to know you were stepping off a cliff. What part of you wanted that thrill?

Going for drinks took even more effort. You PLANNED it. You set a date and a time. You thought about it in the days between. You got dressed for it. Umm, did you buy something new and exciting to wear? If that's not a date, what is it?

My FWS getting an email from an old gf was not his fault. Him responding took action on his part- I guess you see where this is going, don't you?

Now, put yourself in your normal postion on this board- if you as a FWW saw someone doing what you have done, how would you recact? I don't think you'd be holding their hands and telling them everything was going to be fine. I think you'd be telling them they screwed up royally and that they should be telling their spouse, writing a letter of no contact, and abiding by no contact. You'd tell them in no way should speak to the OMW. You KNOW all the answers.

Now, that you are in all honesty not a FWW any longer, what should those on the board be telling you?

Maybe you want everyone to tell you it will be ok, that this was just a 'little slip' and so on. You knew that was not going to happen when you started this thread.

Tell your husband- do what you know is right.

Hoopsie,

Don't you dare change a word! That was an awesome post!

ETA: Not just for Jen, for all of us to remember. At my worst times (and my H and I were homeless three years ago)... we still had family who helped and lived in a free country. I've wallowed a lot during our struggles - not proud of it, couldn't seem to get out of it. And we're still struggling. But dam, you brought the TRUTH home... Be thankful...

Wow. What a post. Nothing to add at all.

And a lesson to me and MANY OTHER occasionally Whiny BS and FWS on these boards.

Hoopsie,

This has long been my thoughts on WW's who seemingly have a great, successful husband and the seemingly perfect world. And this is why I know that Jen has some inner work to do...her willingness to upset her marriage, her family and her own life tells of unrest within her soul.

Sometimes I think so many have it easy, and they need to struggle, need to destroy so that they can create. How sad that we do not take everything we have that makes our life so comfortable and use it as a base where we can create good things, help people...get our sense of self from that.

Jen will figure all this out, and will get to the bottom of why she did this and what she needs to do to fill up that hole that she seems to think the OM (or her husband) can fill.

This is the inner work we will all eventually be forced to do...(hopefully).

Here are some facts:

Jen is bored with normal-----meaning no excitement.

Saw OM again---------got excited.

Planned meetings with OM after the accidental encounter-------more excitement.

Acknowledged OM was not much of anything until OM showed signs of interest in her. Then OM became attractive once again.

OM had ended relationship before-----this was a huge blow. Jen grieved the loss of OM while her H held her.

Jen decided to work on the marriage because OM ended the affair and had no intention of leaving his wife. OTOH, Jen was ready to leave.

Jen met with OM hoping to hear OM say: “Now I am ready to leave my wife. I was wrong, I made the wrong decision---I always loved you”.

However, OM said something different: OM affirmed his love for his wife and asked Jen to mediate for him with the wife. It almost sounds as if OM wants Jen to fix his marriage.

At this point I have to assume Jen was profoundly disappointed. This is not what she wanted to hear. Jen wanted OM to say I want to ride with you in the sunset. Instead Jen got the same OLD text. At this point Jen decided to post in MB and to consider the idea of telling H about her encounters with OM.

IN summary:

Jen is an MB convert as long as OM rejects her.

If OM was single and available----------------and if OM wanted to ride into the sunset with Jen I don’t think Jen would be an MB convert.

This is not rocket science-----it is rather simple. Many stay married out of convenience and go thru the motions.

There is also a HUGE difference between having an affair with all the intentions to leave the marriage versus having an affair with NO intentions to leave the marriage.

Jen wanted out and she didn’t get out because OM did not follow thru.

I'm not sure what I want to say here. This whole thing has been incredibly disturbing. Don't blame Pep for giving voice to her emotions over on recovery because more than a few FWSs and BSs have had to do that. Process why what you did Kiwi triggered so many of us.

You have plenty of friends here who are giving you all the unconditional love and support that you could ever ask for. I have always enjoyed your views on MB, but don't have the friend status going with you. So I'm just going to talk to you as someone who I have known on these boards for a long time. Within the 1st year after d-day H told me that in a book he was reading the author said everyone needs people in their lives who will tell them the truth. He said I did that for him. I don't know you, but I can be straight with you regarding what I'm seeing.

What disturbed me more than anything was your justification that it was OK to even say hello to the OM at the grocery store. You prided yourself in not having any feelings for him. You passed the test. This is what I don't understand. Did it ever occur to you that by even speaking to OM you were chatting with someone who brutally hurt your H? I had a conversation with my H about this yesterday. I asked him if he really understood that any friendly contact with OW would be like he was having friendly contact with my rapist? He "claims" he understands this. He continued telling me that he knows the great harm that was done to me because of his A. I asked him if he understood that OW is my enemy and that if he truly loves me then she is his enemy too. I know many FWSs here don't agree with that. But I can't be with my H knowing he has any gooey, fond feelings for the woman who ripped me to shreds and hurt my boys.

So you wanted the honeymoon phase that you experienced after recovery to continue? Well join the club. That honeymoon phase came with a big price. From the BS standpoint it had to do with high levels of adrenalin flowing through our bodies. It was being in fight or flight mode for those of us dealing with a withdrawing FWS. It had to do with feeling a deep love for our very "F"ed up Ss. That honeymoon phase that you so fondly remember was born out of deep suffering. I can't speak to what it was like for the FWS. I think for my H he had forgotten that he loved me. He forgot he had even been sexually attracted to me. What a surprise for him when he thought he might lose me to discover he had missed me. That he did feel deep feelings for me.

My H was in-love with the fantasy of the perfect R during his A. Don't we all know that every stage 1 infatuation eventually turns into stage 2 and stage 3? A growing, passionate M takes effort. If you think your H is watching too much TV, or is blowing off the bathroom renovation project, then talk to him. If you can't talk to him, then get help in MC. And if it's just that you think some perfect, romantic R is out there waiting for you, then give your H a break and go follow your destiny. You'll never be able to give yourself fully to your H as long as you're living in a fantasy.

The reason some of us have had to process your news is that you were one of the FWS poster children here on MB. If you could so easily and carelessly slip into contact with the OP, so casually forget about the effect on your H and your children, then many of us BSs wonder if renewed contact is just a chance meeting with the OP away?

I hope that the next post from you on here is stating that you have told your H. If nothing else he does deserve that truth. Then I hope you can get clear within yourself about what you are doing and what you really want? Also, there is another human being in this equation that I personally relate to. That is the OM's W. Does she know you and her H have been hanging out? What about her pain? Her right to know what is happening in her life? I hope things work out for you, and especially for your H.

Jen,

It’s your Affair World friend Plank here.

I’ve been away for a bit and upon my return I was sad to see that you had fallen into a bad place.

Jen please read that thread again. Read it! Remember everything that you said and how you felt when you wrote it.

I know you are probably getting a virtual landslide of attention on this subject already, but I was hoping that I could just talk WITH you a minute and express my concerns because I consider you a non-emotional fulfilling friend. Pure and simple.

Jen you wrote: [color:"blue"]Some of you appear to have missed that my last words to OM were "you are a ****** and I'm not going down this path again." but that is completely immaterial. Because, if he hadn't proved himself to be a complete jerk (yet again) I don't know what would have happened. [/color]

My friend you already had another A with him. You met him for the meeting of your EN’s. That’s it. You never planned on having sex with him again but do they ever??

NC is NC. This is why. And from what I’m about to say next you can hate me but I really prefer that you think of it as honest words from someone that cares about you in a support group:

I think this is all about maturity Jen.

You want excitement and diversion from normalcy. The things that cited as unadventurous and dull are those same things that you will miss the most if this all blows up in your face. Think about that for a while.

Your H sounds like he’s dedicated, hard working, family loving, honest, and sincere; all wonderful characteristics that any woman would love to have in her H yes?

Well if you look at those same qualities in a fit of addiction you are going to see a good man that is BORING, BORING, BORING.

Jen if you have needs that have an exciting adventurous quality to them can you sit down with your H and POJA them? Reasonably?

My W would love it if I walked off of my job and toured the Americas with her…… for about a month until we were broke and living on the street. Then it would be all about survival and all of the hoopla over fun and excitement wouldn’t be worth it I would imagine.

You sound very spoiled. Would you say that is true about yourself?

Do you have other addictive issues in your life?

I am married to a woman that I could see as saying some of the things that you are saying so I believe that I have some insight.

Jen, over here if you have a bad dog that’s a biter you may give it one chance. Just one. If it bites someone else we euthanize it.

OM (no longer FOM) is a biter. He’s bitten and bitten. While you can’t euthanize him in our society, unfortunately, you can elect to uphold your marital covenant and NEVER speak with him again. You know inside of your soul how important this is.

If you don’t, then it’s like a freshly primed needle of heroin in front of a heroin addicts arm that’s already bound with tourniquet. Will they or won't they...

You must avoid the needle.

Jen you are a wonderful person as MANY MB’s will attest to.

Take your H by the hand and tell him about all of this with more compassion than you’ve ever mustered in your life. And when you tell him, tell him about the plan you have to have no further contact with OM. None ever.

I wish the strength of strengths for you to find the resolve to fight for your M.

Plank.

Shouldn't we all, BS and WS, keep this in mind at all times regardless of someone else's actions. Should it not be the catalyst for bettering all of our relationships all the time?

This situation has certainly stirred up a HUGE amount of emotion of many, many people. But at the end of the day none of us have the right to hang the responsibility for our emotions on Jen.

She screwed up we all know that. Now wouldn't it be more helpful for everyone to stop trying to hang their personal crap on her?

When is enough enough?

Which MB principals allow us to continually batter this person. At what point do WE victimize her with all this continual harassment and pseudo psychiatry (oooh I used a big word)?

Don't you people even have the smallest thought that maybe she KNOWS she screwed up?

I challenge everyone to take full responsibility for their own emotions and recoveries and stop hanging it on someone else who has done nothing for anyone here on these forums except offer encouragement.

I think that for myself I am openly admitting that Kiwi triggered the crap out of me. I openly acknowledge that it is my very own crap.

"Which MB principals allow us to continually batter this person. At what point do WE victimize her with all this continual harassment and pseudo psychiatry (oooh I used a big word)?"

I stand by everything I just wrote to her. I appreciate that she came clean about her meetings with the OM. However, the fact remains that her H might still not know. It's very possible that OM's W does not know. So what part of the MB principles are we following when we don't encourage her to come clean immediately? Does being supportive mean that not one thing that might resemble a negative emotion come out on this thread? Hey, if that's being supportive then I'll let the truly supportive people post here!

Don't get me wrong. I am all for supporting Rob and Jen and I am not trying to make anyone specific a target for my comments.

If Jen writes here then she should expect the 2x4s as I am sure she does.

But does there not come a point when all points have been made?

Does there not come a point when enough 2x4s have been thrown?

Does there not come a point when those of us put to much emphasis on how her behaviors affect us should take their own responsibility?

Maybe we should take count of all the 2x4s that have been thrown at Jen and simply say enough is enough.

I can only image that she is probably stuck under a mountian of them and is trying to dig out from under them and sort out what she needs to sort out.

The situation sucks big time. But have some compassion. I am not asking anyone to like what has happened, just consider when the mob has crossed the line.

Waita a minute!

I am not putting Jen down. I am not beating her over the head for not following MB principles. I don’t think MB principles imply that a person should remain in an unhappy loveless marriage. Sometimes there is no more love despite the fact that love is a verb. Sometimes WW falls for OM and never falls back in love with BH-------it happens. If this is the case then I am applauding Jen for at least having the balls to face her demons and to perhaps consider another alternative. I am not putting Jen down at all. I am simply saying what Jen is afraid to tell herself. She is hungry, but tells herself she is satisfied.


If my wife felt the way Jen did I would want to know. I would want that information to make a decision regarding the marriage. I suspect Jen is going to withhold the info because she has dugged herself into a corner and there is no way out. There is no OM waiting for her and there is the chance that the BH may say bye to the marriage. In fact, I remember what Jen said in one post regarding the issue of doing this again. I believe Jen's H was very clear and said he was given her only one chance.

Bottom line here is I have seen plenty of 2X4s go out on a WS who is unwilling to inform S that an A is ongoing or has been and now is dead.

Jen knew what she was doing, thought she could play with fire and got burnt. She should have known better. This is exactly why the Harley's are so adamant about NC. What part of NC do any of you not understand?

She is now a WW again. She needs to tell S no matter what the outcome.

How many FWSs when faced with D-Day thought S would explode and D would be iminent? Most if not all.

How many actually had to D because FBS was adamant? Not many here.

She cannot know what her S will do and is DJing the he77 out of him by second guessing him. She may have a very educated guess or estimate of what he will do, but can never be absolutely sure until he knows and decides. He may very well choose to stay, this is his choice! No one has the right to take that away from him.

Personally, I don't know what I would do and don't want to go there.

I do know that she made a willful decision and now has to live with the consequences. I will pray for both of them and all the rest of us here on MB.

There is a lesson here that we all should take to heart. NC means NC period! There is no substitute for NC! trying to get around NC is like being a little pregnant either you are or you are not! There is no in between!

Ok kiddo

NONE of this NONE OF THIS

would upset me

IF

you had this discussion with YOUR HUSBAND sitting next to you

the fact you did not have him sitting next to you enjoying coctails with ~another woman's husband~

makes this a date

and not JUST a date

a
~secret date~

Am I wrong?

I am ready to talk now that my anger has passed. Whenever you are ready. I had to protect you from my anger... but now I do not.

Pep

Again Stan, I am not specifically pointing fingers. AND I agree with you completely.

I am only suggesting that maybe Jen has enough input?

Maybe we can give her a moment to breath until she asks for something?

All the best comments/advice in the world given constantly at some point become useless and unhelpful. And for sure the negative comments/advice that some of us have offered are not helpful at all.

I am asking us to balance our own emotions and reactions about the situation with what is helpful for Jen in doing what we would all like her to do and ultimately what she decides to do.

FROM My Thread in Recovery:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

KY

thanks for that...

I KNOW when I am really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> REALLY I best exit stage left ... coz my mouth moves independently from my common sense.

I am wanting to ask you a question ....

WHAT IF.... this is purely HYPOTHETICAL ... so read it as such:

Jen decides to NEVER tell her H the WHOLE story ... who amongst her friends and supporters is willing to contact her H and EXPOSE her?

If we were posting to Mel's H, and we knew he had re-connected to OW, but MEL did not know ... I am thinking if I did not tell her she might open her can of Texas you-know-what on my butt!

This is an ethical question for all of us who push PUSH PUSH ... exposure.

Just thinking....

and guess what?

I slept GREAT last nite ... and I am not one bit angry today

I am not going to be <~~~ mr Sheldon's dog today

Doesn't her husband know she posts here? She's been posting for years; I assume he peeks in from time to time. Won't he find out on his own? If not, I hope somebody sends him the link. He will feel like a one helluva fool when he finds out that the teeming millions in cyberland have been discussing the betrayal of his marriage while he's snoring obliviously on the couch. Talk about the husband being the last to know ...

Stupid question here, but what is the analogy of "Mr. Sheldon's Dawg"? I'm so outta the loop. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

It's a dawg that bit BobPure when he was a little boy ...

WOOF

Pep

"Maybe we can give her a moment to breath until she asks for something?"

"I am asking us to balance our own emotions and reactions about the situation with what is helpful for Jen in doing what we would all like her to do and ultimately what she decides to do."

Frankly there is absolutely nothing more to say. She needs to tell her H, PERIOD! If after that she sincerely wants support for rebuilding her M I'd be happy to offer any support if I can. If she does real soul searching, within herself and with her H, and they decide it's best to D I'll support her journey into being a single W. There's no way I'm going to support her riding off into the sunset with her MM OM!

Stanley wrote:

"I am simply saying what Jen is afraid to tell herself. She is hungry, but tells herself she is satisfied."

You might have the juiciest steak in front of you, or Lobster, whatever your taste buds desire. However, if you think there is an even juicier steak out there your hunger will never be satisfied.

Stanley, I hope you really don't think this "in-love" feeling in As is for real. As much as it hurt me to realize my H had in-love feelings for OW I somehow always saw it for the pure bullsh** it was. The great love in As is laughable. A FWS who is still fantasizing about that "love" never got out of the fantasy IMHO.

Greer

This isn't just jen. Her high profile on these boards makes her every FWS even 3 years into recovery.

SWEAR to me that it hasn't made you nervous about your own situation ?

Jen was superspouse six weeks ago when she wrote 'teh affair world' with Plank. Now look at her. Folks who motvate also deflate. And this is abad 'un.

The volume of responses is testament to the esteem in which she was held on here I think. she even said to me in a thread afer writing the affair word "i hope I haven't set a standard as a FWS that others cannot reach".

Now we are to believe she was bored in her marrige, Rob's apathetic etc while she was writing that ?

All high profile posters events are models to the rest of us. We are all offering up our hopes and fear to this insult to see how valid they still are.

Don't take this personally vicariously. Lke I did. For example <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />