I was thinking more about this and the idea that someone's top EN may be admiration. Are you doing anything especially admirable? Curing cancer, taking over for Mother Theresa, writing Pulitzer-prize winning books, winning your fourth Tour De France?

I suspect not, I suspect you are an ordinary joe doing ordinary-joe things. Doing well at your job, paying your bills, remembering birthdays. Nothing wrong with that, it's what most of us do. Do you think those are things worthy of unusual admiration, or are those things that are simply required of us as decent adults?

And if you *are* curing cancer or saving refugees, are you doing those things because you want admiration or are you doing them because of something in yourself that compels you to do them? I suspect when people do admiration-worthy things, it is not the roar of the crowd that drives them. And in fact, the more they achieve, the humbler they are about their achievements, the less they need the hosannahs and the admiration. The achievement is its own reward.

I think we often create what we most fear. We never achieve what we seek, precisely because we seek it. If you cheat on or leave your wife because she does not voice her admiration for your ordinariness, the very act of cheating and leaving makes you a man unworthy of admiration. If you stay with your wife and family, do good and honorable and unsung things, at the end of your life you WILL be admired for that.

I think this a concept that many of our grandparents' generation -- who threw themselves on grenades in WWII and then came home to work in factories and raise their families -- understood and is something that overprivleged boomers probably don't.

Don't you think just being a "decent adult" is an admirable feat? Don't you find something to admire in ordinary feats? Can't you see the miraculous in the mundane?

hoopsie, this isn't going anywhere fast.

I hope you find someone who can be comfortable in a relationship like the one you want...It just won't be someone like me.

You won't find me justifying my infidelity...that seems like the only thing you want to focus on...to the exclusion of anything else I've said.

We have nothing more to talk about.

I think it might depend on where you started out. There are people who have endured ghastly childhoods and terrible ordeals in their life. It is admirable for them to have overcome those problems and become decent, functioning adults. OTOH, my husband and I -- and you I might wager, correct me if I'm wrong -- are middle-class, well-educated suburbanites who have had the usual advantages that accompany our class, race, and nationality.

If I manage to pay my bills, avoid beating my children, hold down a job, and keep my pants on with men other than my husband, I consider it no more than is to be expected of me. You may know of the Jewish saying "to whom much has been given, much is expected." I have been given much compared to many people in this world. I'll bet you have too.

It's funny, how many times have you seen on the news where someone plunges into a river to save a drowning baby or something and then when there is a big ceremony where the mayor honors them, the person is embarrassed and says "Shucks, I didn't do anything unusual. I don't need all this."

How many times have you heard of grandkids packing grandpa's things after the funeral and discovering Purple Hearts they didn't know he had? Hearing from men whose lives he saved that you never knew about? Hearing from your mother's friends after she died about good deeds she did that she never mentioned to you? I maintain that the most admirable people seek it the least.


That's a shame. I would have enjoyed unpacking your statement about admiration a bit more. I was finding our conversation interesting. Perhaps someone who shares your view -- although not your defensiveness -- could chime in instead.

I don't think it's admiration as much as it is appreciation.

For example, my ex-wife wanted to be a stay at home mom, so we crunched the numbers and could do it.

Never once did I hear, "Thanks for making enough that I can be the SAHM I wanted to be."

Now if she made dinner, not even anything special, just made dinner, I made a point of saying thanks, I enjoyed the meal, I appreciate you cooking dinner."

Everybody does something that is worthy of appreciation for sure, and perhaps admiration. Perhaps it's something you can't do, so they do it for you, or make sure you don't have to worry about it.

From this man's perspective, it really gets hard to keep doing those things if they don't appear to be appreciated.

So perhaps it's not admiration as much as it is appreciation for what your partner does.

So what if someone wants to be admired for taking the trash out without being asked? Is that any less an emotional need than someone who wants FS, or AS, or RC, or any other need.

There is trouble in any relationship when we begin to discount the expressed needs of another party.

So what next, do we not admire our 2nd grade child when she is learning her multiplication tables because there are billions of people in the world who can already do this?

Exactly, EE! The danger is in assuming that our S has the same ENs as we do and thinking we're meeting his/her needs because we're trying to trying to meet the needs we want met OR in assuming that if S really loved us, he/she would know (mindread) our ENs and meet them.

All of this causes resentment. Here we are trying to meet his/her needs and he/she isn't appreciating it and, at the same time, he/she isn't meeting our needs (though he/she may be trying as hard as we are, to meet the wrong need). We think we're doing all the work and our S is selfish, but he/she can't understand what we're talking about... Sad.

One of the best ways to identify our S's ENs seems to be by observing what he/she is giving us. For example, your wife may have been talking to you, wanting conversation (or touching you, wanting affection, etc.), while you were complimenting her cooking wanting admiration/appreciation. My XH and I had this kind of miscommunication.

I agree with this to a point. But, again, I think occasional compliments are different from constant "Oooh you're sooo wonderful for going to work!" ego-stroking.

I was a SAHM and I made dinner most nights. It was my job. My H would compliment me on a new or unusual recipe, but I didn't need appreciation for an ordinary casserole any more than your boss comes to you at the end of every day and says, "Wow, Enlightened, thanks for coming to work today. I really appreciate it."

In fact, it would sort of wig me out if my H said he appreciated me making dinner or doing the laundry every day. As a SAHM, I considered it my JOB. Let's all do our jobs, count our blessings, and keep the whinging and whining and navel-gazing to a minimum.

As a woman, does it get really hard for me to keep cooking and cleaning if it doesn't appear to be constantly appreciated? No, not really. I'm grateful that we have the food to cook and the laundry to clean. And it's not like I'm out beating the laundry against a rock -- I work a lot less than a lot of women in the world. Expecting constant appreciation from my family for my getting off my a$$ seems a bit ... self-indulgent.

EE,

You brought up something I have thought long about.It's a bit sidetracked from the original question on this thread but,I am curious if others see this.Being a SAHM for many years off and on,I have seen an inordinate amount of praise given to kids,usually at the park,or at school or playground,etc.Even at playdates.What I have seen is Mother's(mostly) giving such praise and encouragement for things I personally feel should not be so noteworthy.Yes it's important to encourage and support a job well done,and certain capabilities,but just how much is too much? I used to joke with some women friends of mine that we praise kids for just getting up in the morning or crossing the street.Not literally but figuratively.

So,the line between those things that we should really be praising and admiring/appreciating our kids for( and adults) gets blurred with the actions that we should all be doing and expect to get done.I think this was mentioned before by another poster.Kids then think that everything they do deserves a lot of praise and they are just wonderful and come to expect it.Hard work gets lost since even the lesser acts they do also get so much attention.Why try harder?

I love my SIL but she is a prime example.When I go over to visit,her kids are praised for just about everything.,If I had a dollar for every "Good job!" she says to them I would be rich.They go to the potty, "Good job!" ,they pick up a toy, "Great job!", they eat their lunch, "Great job!".I would be surprised if these kids don't grow up with an unbalanced sense of self and have huge egos.She never says NO to them.Which really surprises me.I think she is fearful of making them feel bad but,we have to tell them right from wrong.NO isn't some four letter word.It's entirely appropriate to say this to children so they know they cannot always do/get what they want.

Appreciation has it's place.But for me,I know when I do a job well.I smile at myself and how good it makes ME feel.I don't need someone to tell me I did a good job.It's nice to be appreciated,sure,but I don't depend on it.Maybe other's do but is it a healthy expectation? Is it really a need?

Some of the best memories I had with my STBX were when I noticed something wonderful my WH did and I went up to him and completely unexpectedly,told him what a wonderful thing I thought he was doing and how I appreciated him for it.He had a look on his face so happy because he didn't expect it.He looked so proud.Those are the moments I think that count.If you expect to be congratulated and praised all the time for the things you do,the motives might not be healthy.

IMO,the motivation behind actions should not be to get the pats on the back but because they are based on a willingness to do right and that you care and respect other's.A's are certainly not anywhere near based on that assertion.

Also IMO,I think that many adults today are still searching for the validation that only comes from a secure person within.I read someone's sig line here before that I really liked: is said, "Integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking".

I don't need anyone to tell me that I am taking great care of my children.It's nice to hear if someone feels compelled to say so and I thank them for it but my happiness and worth don't depend on it.I wouldn't stop doing it if someone wasn't telling me, "Great job!"

IMHO.

Balance is hard.

I like to catch my YD being good. If I've been "harping" on her to put her dishes in the dishwasher, I like to catch her doing it without me telling her and letting her know that I appreciate her doing that.

I can also say NO, without drama. The allowance is an example of this. I say no alot, indicating that she now gets an allowance and should not be trying to con me out of a quarter for the gumball machine. "No, you can spend your allowance if you want a gumball."

"No, dad's not getting a new dog if he is living alone."

When YD does her homework or brings home perfect papers, I like to say that she did a great job, because she did do a great job. Most kids don't get 100% on their homework or test papers. I want her to know that I notice.

So if she cleans her room without me asking, or makes her bed in the morning, I will probably say thanks for doing that without me having to ask.

So often, we only catch our kids being bad. What's wrong with catching them being good and letting them know we see that too.

Of course, this could be because I work a job where I usually only hear from people when something is broken. "Come fix that POS computer you sold us!" LOL

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, which is why I like to show my appreciation when those special times happen amongst the myriad of responsibilities we all have.It also has happened with my kids.They look so proud when they didn't see the praise coming <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.It's great.I can tell that that comment is the one they will remember and feel good about.That's why I choose my praise very carefully.I want it to matter and not just be expected.

Of course not. Having your wife be a SAHM was mutually beneficial, not a favor to her from you. Did she ever hear, "Thanks for being willing to allow your jobs skills to become obsolete so there could be a parent at home for the kids, and so that I don't have to do 50% of the housework, the cooking, the transportation to and from daycare, sports, the dentist and the doctor, and the taking time off to take care of sick kids." Did you ever get a call in the middle of an important meeting asking you to pick up a sick child at school? Working, at least in a professional job, is FAR easier, and often more intellectually stimulating than being a SAHM, and the housework/cooking part of the SAHM job is something I wouldn't consider doing for less than forty or fifty bucks an hour under other circumstances. The tricky part of of being a working parent is that there are still many parenting tasks to be done, and less time to do them, when both parents are working full-time.


I think that it is true that if you are self-confident, regular praise is unnecessary. I don't need praise for balancing the checkbook or helping with physics homework. However, I do appreciate being told that the dinner I prepared is good, precisely because I know that I am only a mediocre cook, and it is nice to receive praise when I do succeed.

Actually, I did and in fact still do thank my ex-wife for being a mother.

She recieved a token of my appreciation on Mother's Day.

I may not have worded it the way you did, but she did recieve my gratitude, and still does.

Just because she was not the best wife, doesn't make her a horrible mother.

Why argue the merits of the EN of APPRECIATION? Clearly, it's more important to some of us than others - generally, it tends to be one of men's top 5. Did any of us know this before we got here? Probably not. It seems those who wanted appreciation were more likely to give it, but those they gave it to didn't appreciate it. Why? Because it wasn't the receiver's EN, it was the givers! We all made the common mistake of giving what we wanted to get rather than what the receiver wanted to receive which led to resentment on both sides that's still apparent here.

How sad.

Isn't it interesting how this thread proves without a doubt that:

1) People have different needs

2) Needs really are that, they are not negotiable, they are NEEDS! (some people might put up with not having them met...many won't do that forever, even in the face of having to divorce)

3) Nothing is more important to the long term viability of a relationship than being compatible!!

4) It's hard, if not impossible for people to understand or even acknowledge others needs.

5) Many therapists make their living from trying to help two people who are basically incompatible, work out their differences enough to keep the marriage alive.

As I read this thread it stuck out so strongly how the men's true needs on this thread were disregarded over and over and in some cases made fun of a bit.

Many men (and women too) have a true need for praise and acknowledgement of who they are and what they contribute daily.

On ego and self esteem...I can only say that you'll never see a high achiever with low ego or self esteem. Take a look around you, some of the most influential, successful people never suffer from low self esteem or ego. On the other hand, low egos are the cause of failure, even in the brightest and most talented. Examples:

Donald Trump
Oprah
Georg Bush
Any of the Kennedy family
Martha Stewart
Ted Turner

Many of the people above I find egotistical, but they are all very successful and they didn't get there without their egos!

Personally, I think there is a big difference between self-esteem and ego. Self-esteem = self-respect, it comes from within. People with a healthy self-esteem tend to see themselves more accurately - both the good and the bad. The ego = comparison between the self and others, usually putting one's self in a more favorable light. It's a lot of fluff with not much substance.

If you notice, many of the people on your list are successful in their professional life but not so much so in their personal life.

Could it be that a big ego is actually deterimental to personal relationships? Donald Trump (besides being a big-headed, goofy haired doofus) is married for the third time. Do you suppose his other marriages failed because the xw's failed to stroke his already massive ego constantly? Or do they lie and tell him how nice his hair looks? Oprah's never been married. She has a long-time boyfriend. I doubt anyone will come between her and her fortune. Mention the Kennedy's and Chappaquiddick comes to mind. It's also well-publicized - Laura Bush hasn't had an easy life with GW. LOL I could go on...

Success is a relative term. Everyone defines it differently. Money and fame are only two aspects.

BTW, ALL people are basically incompatible by their very nature because no two people are the same. What makes them compatible is because they CHOOSE to be - not because they are made that way.

Speaking of Donald Trump, I read something where a reporter asked Melania "would you be with Donald Trump if he weren't rich?" and she replied "would he be with me if I weren't beautiful?"

I guess that's right in line with the Harleys -- his top EN is a hot wife ("attractive spouse" in the lingo) and hers is Mr. Moneybags ("financial security," if you want a slightly better spin). Presumably, if we take that to its logical conclusion, when he files bankruptcy she will drop him like a bad habit and her days as his wife are numbered as she gets older and fatter.

It may be in accordance with the EN concept but personally, I find that value system a little sad.

Me too, hoopsie, me too...

Actually, I've read just the opposite -- that many compulsively high-achievers suffer from insecurities that constantly drive them to "prove themselves" or feel better about themselves if they just close one more deal, make a few millions more, win just a few more accolades.

I don't want to psychoanalyze celebrities but Martha Stewart has some well-documented "domineering daddy" issues. Ditto with the Kennedys and Trump and Turner. In my experience, some of the most supposedly successful people are also some of the most desperately unhappy.

That's just my point ladies. You don't agree with the value system of some on this site. But just because you thinks it's "sad" or "wrong" doesn't change a thing.

I disagree totally on the compatibility issue. Personally, my husband and I are extremely compatible...and always have been (15 years and counting). We have never had to have discussions about issues, money, sex, children. We rarely disagree. It makes life easy and enjoyable and allows us to focus on each other! My grandparents were the same way for over 50 years! I know of a few other couples that don't have to "work" on agreeing about important issues. It's compatibility at it's best!!! I personally think it's foolish to have to try hard to make a relationship "work". Find someone who sees life through the same eyes as you do...you'll be happier for it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hoopsie,

Not sure how happy any of the folks are on my list as that wasn't my point. Happiness and self esteem are definitely linked, although to what extent I don't know. I was only referring to these folks as high achievers with high self esteem. I also wasn't talking about "Compulsive" behaviors.

As I said, you won't find a successful person with low self esteem. Happiness and great relationships take much more than that...

Ego is tricky. I'd say my hubby has an ego, but just enough to be confident and not full of himself. Ditto with me. I know what I am and what I'm not and am proud to be me. Also know what I must work on to continue to grow and improve myself. Ditto with my husband.

Golly, how wonderful for you! No disagreements, no clashing of ids and egos, just two hearts beating as one. Warms the very cockles, doesn't it?

Alas, some of us entered into the state of holy matrimony when we were but foolish young'uns blinded by love and the need to reserve the caterer during the busy spring wedding season. And hence our little problems. I suspect my true soulmate, the one who "sees life through the same eyes as I do," the husband of my loins, is yet out there. With my luck, he is even as we speak herding his goats around his Mongolian yurt. I'm off to research tickets to Ulan Baator. Believe me, your state of blissful and constant agreement is one that I long for -- I figure the chances of that go up if we don't speak the same language, don't you?

Snort.