And I think your family needs a bigger telescope and a week on Mauna Kea. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
(well, they don't have to go with you. You'll bring home pictures.)

Or maybe your family needs a lawyer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

-AD

Hi AD,
You had better be doing well.

SS

2Long,

I hate to be using a "game" as an example, since your sitch is MUCH more serious than that. But...with that...

It's like a hand of poker. She sees some of your cards, you see some of hers. There are those that you and her both don't see.

You have been there for so long, trying to decide how to play this hand. Do you call?...Do you fold?...That's not the point, nor the way to look at it....

The main thing to remember is that staring at the hands is NOT going to change the cards that you hold, nor change the cards that she holds. Part of you hesitates to fold for fear that you may have the winner (chance at recovery). Part of you hesitates to call for fear of the losing more than you have already (same 'ol, same 'ol).

Either way...It is what it is. The game (life) will not proceed until you do one or the other. It won't change the cards.

I think...( and I could be wrong...I was ONCE before - I thought I had been wrong when, in fact, I wasn't <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ) that a lot are telling you there IS a third option....

....Raise. See where she really stands...

If I am not explaining myself very well, I apologize. Heck...now that I think about it, I don't know what I am trying to say.


HCII

This is precisely the "problem" that so many Wayward Spouses have a very hard time understanding, much less implementing. It has taken my wife 4 years to finally reach the point where she finally "sees" and understands.

That's, frankly, a long time for a Betrayed Spouse to "hang in there," but it is NOT unexpected in recoverying from a LTA with emotional involvement that began as a "friendship."

This IS the problem, the "friendship line" was crossed and can never be reestablished. Things were shared that never enter a "friendship." The OP KNEW that you were married and totally rejected your marital rights in favor of their self-centered, selfish, "wants." THAT's NOT a friend and no "friendship" can be reestablished with someone who chose rape and total disregard for you. That's no friendship with that person for you...or for your Wayward Spouse, who, by continuing contact STILL shows a callous disregard for your feelings as well as the sanctity of marriage.

It is a wonder to me that any BS recovers from having to endure years of callous disregard while sounding nice from time to time. The feeling here is summed up in my response to your next quoted phrase.



"Forsaking ALL and keeping myself only unto you."

Very little regard for you or marriage in general. So much for VOWS....they remain "intact" only so long as they don't "interfere" with what SHE wants. Nevermind what you want or need, or what is EXPECTED in any marriage. That's also why they call it "monogamy."

2long, this very difficult, as I can attest from much personal experience. In your case, your wife seems to put her career ahead of you, has no problem being separated from you for long periods of time, so I'm not surprised that YOUR needs and the marital commitments of surrendering "self" to spouse take a back seat in her thinking. Everything she sends you is to "justfiy" and "rationalize" her position, "I am woman, hear me roar! as I do my own thing!"

She, of course, CAN take the "single life" option. Whether or not you agree to it will depend in large part on YOUR personal understanding of what "married" means to you.

I know it isn't relative in your "world," but a key difference to me seems to be that of WHO is the "sovereign" person in one's own life. You know my position on that as a Christian. I am no longer "mine" only. I am "bought and paid for" by the one who is truly Sovereign and I surrender that "throne" to him. Without a "referent" outside of self-interest or "feelings," why would anyone "surrender" their own feelings or perceived "needs" when it means "giving up" something, or someone, they "want?" I'm NOT arguing that it "CAN'T" be chosen by a nonbeliever. I am merely saying that our choices and decisions are always predicated upon our "presuppositions," not just the "facts." The FACT is that marriage as we know it IS monogamous and that we voluntarily "give up" everything and everyone that is NOT beneficial to the marital state, and especially "give up" those things that are harmful to the marital state we voluntarily entered.


((((2long))))) Just a hug of understand that it is HARD to understand how a WS just doesn't "get it" for a long, long, time. Too long (if you'll pardon the pun) and the BS may reach the point where they believe that "repetition" is not likely to change and they will not accept an "open marriage" in any way. Marriage IS an exclusive "arrangement" and it DOES take two thinking the same so that "forsaking ALL others" IS the joint mantra for protecting the marriage. Some WS's never "wake up" to that fact, and some wait too long and find the BS has moved on because they finally believed the WS would NOT choose change.

Hi Pal - I'm with Gibby.

I don't think Plan B is available unless you are physically, permanently separated - not temporarily separated.

WAT
-------------
The actual usefulness and the content-richness of one's ideas is directly proportional to their chance of being wrong. That which cannot be wrong also cannot be right. No reward without risk, even in the realm of ideas.

So, this is her choice? -Accept my friendship with RM or we may as well end our marriage.- She essentially values maintaining her 'friendship' with RM over her marriage to you....if she can't have both....which she would prefer.

I am sorry, 2.

2L -

Sorry to hear all this. I know this is old news..but it is really amazing to hear some of the similarities between your WW and my xW. It's like the part of the brain that could ever dream of ruling out OM is just fried.

Last week I went to our family doctor for my physical (the big 5-0 physical, 2!). He told me (and I was surprised he would say this) that my xW came in not too long (hah hah!!) ago and ranted a bit about her H leaving her. He said he just let her talk and didn't say anything, but he noticed that there was no mention of OM. Due to our conversations (starting before I left home), he knew the story.

Anyway...I am so sorry you've had to endure all this turmoil in your life. I've decided that I may, against my better judgement, agree to use the phrase "It's just not fair!" sometimes.

Georgia

What ya thinkin 2long?

SS

Not much, ac2ally! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

More ac2ally, I've been at an all-day meeting the past 2ple days. Got another half day 2 go 2morrow.

W is still at OOSP until at least Sa2rday. She called me yes2rday and tonight - on the house phone, so my son gave me the phone. It occurred 2 me that she might have done that so I'd answer the phone - perhaps thinking I wouldn't answer if she called my cell phone. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


But I'm just guessing, and truthfully I don't care that much. If she had called my cell, I'd have answered, but she can go on and assume if it helps her think.

Night before she left was interesting, as she didn't get up in the middle of the night and go downstairs 2 sleep like she usually does - though sometimes I'll just stay upstairs so as not 2 wake her up (and 2 have some soli2de).

Based on that, and the phone calls, I think it's faintly possible that she's been approaching bottom and starting 2 see consequences 2 her choices. After all, there are no winners in infidelity. The pain she's been feeling of late still pales in insignificance compared 2 what I went through 4.5 years ago.

But still, this is an observation of a possibility, not a grasping at straws on my part. I could be reading this wrong, and since I have other things 2 occupy my mind of late, I'm dealing with those. Still, it's no sweat off my nards 2 answer the phone, even if we don't have much 2 say 2 one another. So, I did.

I'm going 2 go stare at my eyelids for about 8 hours now.



But it's nice 2 hear from my friends here! Hi hcii! Howya doin?

-ol' 2long

Oh, 2long, some of this is so familiar to me.





I remember so much of that. Thinking, "Well, it's a big effort for him." And being willing to give him extra credit points and bend the rules, because he did something and I wanted to acknowledge his bbbbbiiiiigggg effort.

But it just doesn't work that way, does it? No matter how much you bend the rules, fifty cents will never be a buck.

And if you are at the Dollar Store, you need the whole buck.

When you bend the rules, you wind up trying to breathe through a straw. It can be done. But why would you want to?

Trouble is that after the wayward one continually comes up short fisted, the BS gets to the point of no return...and then a buck is not even enough.

And after the wayward realizes the BS isn't really playing with all they've got anymore they start coming up with more bucks, finally jumping head first into the game and putting in all they've got, thinking the ante has gone up and they need to start delivering...but being at the point of no return the BS has left the game and withdrew his ante.

Game over.

Reminds me of that Gordan Lightfoot song -

If You Could Read My Mind
Gordon Lightfoot

If you could read my mind love,
what a tale my thoughts could tell.
Just like an old time movie
about a ghost from a wishing well.
In a castle dark or a fortress strong
with chains upon my feet.
You know that ghost is me
and I will never be set free
as long as I'm a ghost that you can see.


If I could read your mind love,
what a tale your thoughts could tell.
Just like a paperback novel,
the kind the drugstore sells.
When you reach the part where the heartaches
come the hero would be me.
Heroes often fail.
And you won't read that book again
because the endings just to hard to take.

(sorry 2long, I know this post is depressing as ******... at least looking at it from the perspective of losing your desire to continue, but not from the perspective of embarking on a new journey after surviving and even growing as a person, and leaving the pain of devastation behind, and finally leaving the mediocricy behind... whew, that is exciting)

AMM:

I know of what you speak. But I don't think there's been any big effort (yet, at least) on my W's part. For any effort 2 be "big" - heck, recognizable, it would have 2 have some concessions in it. And my W has never offered any concessions. And I need a great big one right now.

-ol' 2long

2L,

I just recently just started reading here again (not sure why) and noticed your message. I'm really sorry to hear you are going through this...

I think you've handled this perfectly.

Comparing jealousy of a past girlfriend/boyfriend vs. an OP is an absolutely ridiculous statement. All of us BS's know that, but I guess its hard for the WS to see.

I think you've made it clear to her where you stand with regards to the OP. I hope she makes the right decision on this.

Take Care,

Miker

weaver:

I like Gordon Lightfoot!

"At best, it is said, we've been locked deep inside of an old seaman's chest full of charts.
Where maps are contained and what's left of his brains, when his crew threw his balls to the sharks!"

-Gordon Lightfoot, "Too many clues in this room" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Well, last night I 2rnd off the light and watched my eyelids for the requisite 8 hours, just like I said I would! I feel all perky now! Nothing like this song, which would have described many of my nights 4 years ago...

"Sleepless", -King Crimson

"In the dream I fall into the sleepless sea
With a swell of panic and pain
My veins are aching for the distant reef
In the crush of emotional waves...

Alright, get a hold of yourself
An' don't fight it, it's over your head
It's alright, the rumble in your ears
It's alright to feel a little fear
An' don't fight it, it's over your head
It's alright, you wake up in your bed...

Silhouettes like shivering ancient feelings
They cover my foreign floors and walls
Submarines are lurking in my foggy ceiling
They keep me sleepless at night...

Hey, can you picture the sight
The figures on the beach in the searing night
And the roaring hurt of my silent fight...
Can you pull me out
Of this sleepless night
Can you pull me out?..."

-ol' 2long

Miker:

Yeah, I think that, looking back at what I wrote and how she flew off the handle, that perhaps the one thing that "impacted" her the most was me hinting that I would like 2 thwack the tar out of RM, even now.

It's true - I don't hate people for doing evil things. I hate the evil things. But I don't even know RM, except as a doer of evil things. And that was my point 2 my W.

-ol' 2long

Ah, Gordie - now I'll have the Wreck of the Ella Fitzgerald looping thru my head all day. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But she probably thinks there has been.

One man's ceiling is another man's floor.

WAT
----------------
Before you know it they'll start claiming that people are made of atoms - just like rocks and stuff.

Ursprache!


...though I can't think of any way 2 use that in a sentence! Maybe a new term for WS fog latin?

...the latest from Stone - 9th anniversary ale - manages 2 use the word "antidisestablishmentarianism" in a sentence, though! Check it out! You ac2ally need a dictionary 2 read the label! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long