The timing is too suspicious to me. It is only after WW came back from seeing her lawyer that she is adamant of trying to work it out. Sounds fishy to me, but you have to give it a chance. However, before you drop anything legally be sure to discuss the ramifications with your lawyer.

Tell WW if she really wants you to drop the D, she has to make a real effort at making the M work. You guys cannot just wing it. It is understandable that her feelings may not be where you’d like them to be right now, but there must be some steps taken in the direction.

Ask for the following conditions:

1. IC
2. MC
3. NC for life
4. Total transparency, and she must understand that it will take sometime for you to build your trust in her again.
5. At least 15 hours a week doing things together.
6. POJAing the major decisions you two make.

As suggested to you, it is not enough to be living under the same roof. You are looking for your wife back, not a new roommate.

Your WW’s willingness to put forward the effort it will take to rekindle your M will tell you all you need to know. Remember, ACTION is what you are looking for here, not your WW’s mere WORDS.

JL & lh,
Wheh-eee… W & I just had a HUGE discussion. What a break-through. I think this is the 1st time that we’ve ever utilized PoJA. She is still a bit scared of RH, but so was I at first, so I will give her some time on that.

We addressed a LOT. And even though none of our underlying issues are solved, this is the 1st time we both have admitted to them. On my end, I had to start pulling teeth at first, then she became more open. One issue at a time. Current affair, then failed MC, then previous affair, etc. etc. etc. At first she felt extremely violated by my snooping, but became more understanding as to why I did it. And she addressed plenty of the issues that I brought up; although I’m sure that we will have to go over them again in counseling. She even admitted that the A got out of control; without me prompting her to say so.

We have an agreement now to NEVER do anything regarding the kids without both of us agreeing. She agrees to counseling. She believes that we could benefit from counseling; and promised that she will actually try this time (I explained how her affair prevented her from trying before.) She doesn’t want to be forced into holding hands, hugging, etc right now, but for the 1st time ever mentioned that she thinks that we have enough common ground to recover. I used lh’s words to assure her that I was aware how long it took for things to get this bad; and am willing to be patient to get things back on track. She agrees that if we enable ourselves to trust each other enough, that our money is much better spent on marriage counseling than divorce lawyers. She agreed to NC w/OM. She removed & blocked his ID on her Chat Utility. She is canceling the reunion that she and OM had planned together, and will instead hold a smaller get together at a different location for those people that already booked travel. She still wants to end all D activities tomorrow, but agreed that she does not need to go to the cottage immediately, but would still like for all of us to still go relatively soon. And I agree.

I’m going to do it. I’m going to take this leap of faith and end the D tomorrow. I had previously discussed it a little w/ attorney. The worst case would be that if D strikes up again, that W would have that much more time to become a better mother. Which to me sounds like a GOOD thing. So I will keep on striving to become an even better Father. While hopefully the 2 of us will strive to become a better husband/wife. The W is calling off her lawyer tomorrow too.

UVA, I will be looking for those actions. I think she knows it too; since she is concerned with not being able to go trough all of the actions at first. I will be patient yet firm.

A big concern for me right now is to find a decent MC. I didn’t really care for my last one. She was nice enough. And down to Earth enough. But why wasn’t she able to target that A? I don’t know how W will feel about using the Harley’s. I obviously want to use someone that she feels comfortable with, because I want to make sure we get positive momentum started.

I am removing my safety net. And putting my nukes back in the arsenal. Please keep me in your prayers.
--d2m3b.

Update:
I called my lawyer to say that I would like to withdraw my petition for divorce an that W and I are fully committed to giving another shot to work things out. Attorney was ecstatic and wished us best of luck; and cracked a joke that it would be fine to go out of “business” with reconciliation stories like mine. I am about to review the draft for dismissal, then I will need to go to the office to sign it. We discussed my options. I could just put the petition on “hold” or I could fully withdraw it. The difference being that if we need to fire up D again, we would only need to wait 3 weeks vs. 3 months for a hearing. With that being the only difference, a full withdraw makes more sense to me in every way:
- Bigger commitment of trust
- More time to work things out and come to our senses if the ever is a next time.
- A reminder that we don’t really want to ever go through all of that again.

My W would like to start out with our previous MC; which I think is better than nothing, right? We could always switch later. So I said that we can try that. My W, as I suspected she would be, is a bit uneasy about my mention of Radical Honesty. And understandably, has not had time to read HNHNfP this week, with all else that has been going on. I assure her that I am not pressuring her; that I found it useful; and am just asking her opinion. So as it stands right now, her fear of RH is deterring her from wanting to enter into phone counseling with the Harely’s; which, again, I understand fully at this point. RH weirded the heck out of me too the 1st few times I read it, and was able to piece it in to the entire system. And I wasn’t even a wayward with a hidden life.

So I left a message with our previous MC and explained that I am dropping the D; and we are both dedicated to giving a 100% effort to marriage counseling. W & I both agree that we really need to see a counselor at least once before departing on our family trip. So now it is even my W that is delaying the trip that is so important to her. I really didn’t expect the fog to recede so far, so soon. But I know to be cautious of it rolling back in.

I think that I am going to ask W this evening if we can fill out the EN questionnaire. My only hesitation is that Openness/Honesty is going to rank higher with me than with her. And I don’t want her to feel pressured that I am demanding too much or too soon.

Actually relating to that, I guess that I have a 2nd concern too. Being that both of us are hurt right now; and not in our “normal” state of being, our ENs will no doubt rank differently than how they “normally” would if we were in a better situation. Right? So how should we go about ranking ENs right now?
- Rank them the way that we feel right now, so that the Love Bank gets a quick boost?
- Or should we try and guess how we would normally rank them.
For example, I know that SF will rank extremely lower for me right now than normal. And Openness/Honesty will rank much higher. Do I go for what I need now, or what I need in the long run? I am using my case as the example, but more importantly I want to know if I should air for W’s short-term or long-term ENs.

As always, thanks for the support, advice, & criticisms,
--d2m3b.

Good luck, pardner. You're taking a big step and I hope it goes well.

I don’t post too much here because I feel I am not completely in understanding of all MB Principles. I do however think I have a good grasp on people’s behavior and reactions...

I believe reconciliation is like jumping with a parachute. You can’t jump half way or change your mind once you step out. You have to finish what you started and you have to give it 100% if you want it to work.

However only a fool would jump in a parachute without careful preparation, good weather conditions and a backup ‘chute. It’s the same for your situation. Your petition for divorce, your Plan A and your preparation have gotten you into the plane, into the air and into the doorway. Now you have to ask yourself before you jump whether you need that backup ‘chute.

So your W has decided to reconcile. I have no doubts that when she said that she was 100% committed to reconciliation. Just like an alcoholic is so sincere in wanting to stop drinking on a Monday morning. Come Thursday his resolve is weakened and on Friday he finds an excuse to get a six-pack.

I believe that in a way the basis of Plan A and Plan B is to create a situation where the WS realizes that what she loses by carrying on the affair outweighs the “benefits” she is getting from the affair. That is done by depositing in the Love Bank, setting boundaries and standing firm on certain basic issues. The “threat of loss” is implemented with Plan B. I know this is simplification but I think it does all boil down to this.

Now what I am afraid of (and have read numerous times on MB) is that at the first sign of W getting out of the fog the BS is so relieved and so enthusiastic about moving on that he keeps on depositing in the LB but slacks on the boundaries and the basic issues. Yes it does send a sign of trust to W but it also enables the WW to emerge from the fog and pull W back in.

By all means deposit in the LB. By all means do all you can to help your marriage. But I strongly recommend you keep some pressure on W to stand by her side of the agreement. I suggest you do not drop the D right now but put it on “hold”. I suggest that if you are not happy with your present MC then find a new one. Do not be afraid of boundaries and going for what YOU want as long as you truly believe it’s beneficial for the marriage and is fair.

Don’t forget that although you seem to have managed to connect to your W underneath you are still dealing with the WW. I think that some pressure will help W dominate the WW and eventually help in getting WW out of the picture.

Thanks for the good wishes, lh. I appreciate that deeply.

I’ve got to say that today was the best day in my life in over 2 years. And since I am a changed man now, maybe I can even claim that this was the best day in my life, PERIOD; but with an asterisk to indicate my new life. What made this day so great? Nothing. That’s right, nothing special really at all. Just simply, no yelling, the family was together all day. Lots of laughing with the kids and BOTH of us. My wife and I talked to each other a lot throughout the day. We are able to easily talk about things now that we just didn’t even discuss before. Her eyes are open now for the 1st time in over 5 months to realize how much I have changed for the better. A tear even came to her eye several times through the day as she would note a positive behavior to me that I have now and also note the hurt and lack of fulfillment it was being corrected from our “old” relationship. She didn’t come out and say, “sorry for doubting that you could ever change”; but I can certainly tell that she appreciates it. I guess the events in the past 10 years probably all happened for a reason. Like that movie, “Signs”

So I didn’t get around to asking her about ENs this evening; as we were just wiped out. But I gathered some hints throughout the day. For example, in one of our conversations she said, “Do you want to know why? Why it happened? Why with him?” I said I could probably guess for the most part. I explained what I knew about lack of fulfilling ENs enabling As to happen and how they grow out of control. I was sure to tell her that I don’t hold her fully responsible for it, because I did my part to driver her away in the 1st place. I didn’t see her jaw drop, but in her eyes I could tell that she must have been totally delighted that her husband and father of her 3 boys had actually become enlightened enough to say something like that. She went on to give other details about the affair. The note that I made to myself, because I heard it loud and clear:
“SHE FELT UNAPPRECIATED”.
Boy, I need to get that one tattooed in a mirror image on my forehead.

After the kids were rounded up in bed, I was about to head up here to rest on the bed for a few minutes. I wasn’t feeling very well after taking the family out to eat and gorging ourselves. But then I figured I better fix the banister on the stairs first, just in case I crashed out for the night. As I was banging with the hammer, I hear my wife call me from her “room” (former living room). I went in and she was lying face down on the bed, shimmying her shoulders for a massage like she used to do when I got home from work. I couldn’t believe my eyes; I didn’t think that I would even get close to meeting her needs for affection so soon. I dropped that hammer; and got in there for my fingers to get working in a flash. She had always told me that I gave better massages than she received in half the spas she had been to. It always amazed her that I had no training and could accomplish that so naturally. It always went in one of my ears and out the other before. But I’m guessing now that it will be the 1st piece to my OM kryptonite collection; and she will be getting a regular dose of Affection fulfillment.

So as for that back up ‘chute? I think I will pass on it. I’ve got enough going on to utilize 100% of my focus. My high school physics teacher had a story about backup chutes. He claimed that he should have been dead. He took one of those beginners skydiving courses and worked up to a solo jump. On his 1st solo jump, the main chute deployed in a tangled mess. The instructors were going ballistic for him to pull the back-chute. But he remembered something from his training about how a tangled main chute could cause the back-up chute to fail as well. So he remained calm and did not pull the back-up chute. Instead, he reached up to the main chute chord and shook it vigorously. Low and behold, the chute righted itself and completed its deployment. By then he was too close to the ground to amply break his speed. He did the drop and roll technique as he approached the ground. I think he broke one of his ankles; but he lived to tell the story and skydive again.

I’m just gonna leave that back-up chute packed away and concentrate on this main chute that is just now righting itself. But I do appreciate to advice and perspective. Keep it coming.

--d2m3b.

Just got done reading through all of your posts (had already read some of them). You were kind enough the other day to respond my post, and I want to return the honor.

It's an amazing story. Seems like things are going well for you. Congratulations. Keep us informed.

V

d2 - just got caught up on your sitch. looks to me like you're making progress. congratulations. you've had some break-through conversations that WW and I are yet to have.

i like what 'bigger' had to say. i need to follow that advice as well. you and I are gasping for recovery. boundaries are easy to overlook at this time. I've let them slack off a bit. I'm tired of the struggle as I'm sure you are too.

All the best to you, d2.

After today… Yesterday seems like a big FUK1N6 JOKE!!! I swear! I had MUCH less STRESS when I was headed for D. And it was a he1l of a lot F’ing easier to deal with too. I had taken care of all of the sh1tty work; and had gotten myself off of the emotional rollercoaster. Now I’m just sucked right back in. Today wasn’t good. I don’t see tomorrow, or even next week improving anytime soon. I think that even as lost as my W is in all of this, that she is now more optimistic about the chances of working the M out than I am. I don’t dare say that to her. But I really feel she is not being as realistic as I am. And this has NOTHING to do w/ the A; and everything to do about her. I have previously expressed my concerns on this thread that she may not feel like changing herself. And I have a bad feeling that I’m in for the ride of it now.

I can’t even find the time to finish reading SAA. I can’t find the time to even read this site. I don’t have time to do my job properly. I’m not getting any housework done anymore. It was easier for me to take care of the kids when she was withdrawn. I just feel like throwing my hands in the air and asking my W to show me how it can all work out, because I have really just lost focus of how it really can happen. I really don’t know what to say. I know I need a good night’s sleep; and am so far behind schedule already that I know, yet again, that I’m not going to get the sleep that I need.

Don’t really know what the say; so I’m going to play it safe and say nothing.
--d2m3b.

Sorry to hear you had a rough day, D2. WW's behavior was MORE of a shock to me when she stopped acting WW because the "normal" W was such a contrast to WW. If that makes sense. What she did looked more hideous when she started acting like my W.

It IS easier when they are alien, detached and you don't really have to "deal" with them. WW is being dealt back into my life and I see a LONG road to deal with the most recent A, have her get personal help she needs, deal with the first A, AND work on the marriage. To boot we're having trouble with our 4 year old daughter.

And through all of this I'm supposed to lead the charge? Be forgiving, loving, patient, kind. Wouldn't mind so much if WW was right there with me.

Anyway - I'm feelin' you bro.

I can feel myself becoming a statistic. I know that Dr Harley says that it is usually men that initiate MC when wives become withdrawn due to neglect or emotional abuse. And then once wives commit to counseling, it is usually the men that then loose interest in counseling. I’m feeling it… and hard too.

I know that this is my chance to win her back. But with all of her annoying habits that have returned with this weak; I am seriously doubting whether I really want her back. I liked taking care of the kids better when she was withdrawn. I liked cleaning the house better when she was withdrawn. I liked doing laundry better when she was withdrawn. I liked driving the family in the car better when she was withdrawn. I liked feeding the kids better when she was withdrawn… I think you probably get my point. I do feel a little bit bad because she seems more interested in MC now, than ever before. I think she truly does want to solve this state of limbo that we are both feeling. But I also see hesitation on her part to dig deep and make serious changes. It is almost as if she is just interested because she views her other options as being worse in terms of financial security, etc. She already told the MC that she feels “trapped”. Which I have to interpret as “trying for the wrong reason”. I am thinking “Go enable yourself to be ‘un-trapped’ then.” I know already that I won’t be able to even come close to handling being a doormat. I’ll see were this current MC takes us. If it goes nowhere, I will give her the opportunity to join me in the Harley’s program. If that doesn’t work?... I dunno, I hate this rollercoaster.

For right now, I try to replace thoughts of marital failure with thoughts of her being hopeful of MC. But it is really just about all I can do right now. There are no real opportunities to meet ENs. I am keeping my LBs to a minimum. But man, there are just so many landmines in this state of limbo. I can barely even mention anything good about how our relationship used to be, without her getting defensive that I am pushing things too fast, or else that she doesn’t feel that way anymore.

I really need to try and wrap up SAA tomorrow.

Hanging in… for now.
--d2m3b.

Hey,
I never got an answer on this one. Anybody wanna give it a shot?
--d2m3b.

Not an expert on this D2. Wish I could help. I'd say do it both ways.

Hi dad, nice to meet you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If I remember correctly it says in there how to rank them, whether it is how you feel NOW or how you would NORMALLY like to feel...do you have the book? If I have time, I will check and get back with you...

I'm sorry you are going thru this...it sucks!

Hi Dad,

I am very sorry for what you are going through. I have never reply'd to you but have followed your sitch.

I wanted to answer your EN question. I think you both should answer them as to how you currently feel and what you currently need. This is what my H and I did...then we got the Q's out once a week to go over them again to see how we were doing on meeting eachothers needs. This helped us to see our progress and also gave us a weekly chance to tweak and re-evaluate our needs so that as we grew and recovered we always stayed current with eachothers EN's and how we are meeting them. This questionaire and the weekly check ins were a key part of our recovery and we still use the EN information to fill the LB.

This is what worked for us...I know you are in a precarious position right now. Don't give up the fight, hang in there.

Glad

MDC, M23Bs, & Glad,
Thanks for the replies. I take them all as good advice. If I can get my wife to buy into the questionnaires, then Glad’s advice of weekly evaluations makes a lot of sense. But if she is not able to buy into Harley’s program, then I guess that I would have to:
a) Guess at her long-term ENs
b) Guess at her near-term ENs (on a regular basis)
c) Try to make a habit of regularly meeting both of them (Especially any common ground between the 2 sets)

Sorry to all for the lack of updates recently. In short, there has been a lot more roller-coastering. We keep moving too fast in some areas; which results in 2 steps backwards after most of the steps that we are able to take forward. One big problem is that we haven’t moved any further with MC. Wife has a lot of plans this summer that she is not willing to put on the back burner; so it eats into most of our opportunities to get a regular ongoing session of MC initiated. I guess the good news is that after all of the roller-coastering and set-backs, that we both seem to agree that we need to both put our best foot forward for the kids’ sake, and that nothing will be resolved long-term in our situation without professional guidance. And we are able to talk much more about our situation and concerns now than ever before. It is still rough; but definitely better.

Trust is a major issue between us right now. She feels extremely violated by the snooping and divorce preparation tactics that I initiated (and confuses them with the days when my temper was not in check). I feel nervous about her thoughts and feeling that I uncovered regarding “us.” She swears that it is not an ultimatum, but there is no way that things will get better where we live now. So I am trying to overcome my trust issue and am trying to get my job transferred to her home country. She claims that she will initiate MC there, if we begin preparations to move there now. I think that would be huge if she could follow through with that kind of pro-activeness. She has yet to involve herself that deeply. On the other hand though, I can’t let myself get to optimistic until she actually acts upon the idea.

The bottom-line, it remains a very scary time for both of us with rushes of raw emotion and resurfacing hurtful feelings. Thanks to all for the encouragement to press on; because the temptation to bail out and flee this situation gets very strong in me at times. I sometimes wonder how many men aren’t able to overcome this very strong, almost instinctual urge to flee this state of conflict and end up being labeled as dead-beat dads.
--d2m3b.

Oh man.. it is time to get off of the roller coaster again. FWW has managed to still find excuses not to get MC or IT started. It's been 4 weeks now! But she wants to move full speed ahead for her and the kids to leave the country, with me paying the way while she gets on her own feet. After all of this time, she just now informs me that her idea of working on something in MC, is to solve our trust issues so that we can be "friends" and make the best decisions for our children.

And she claims that I have "control" issues to so strongly want our M to work out. She also accuses me of being too polar when she doesn't like the sound of any Plan B actions of mine. I'm gonna have to fire up divorce proceedings again. We really need to mediate things in a stone tablet. And this time I'm going to keep friends and family aware of what is going on. She won't have a rock to hide under.

If bigger is still reading, I will accept being called a fool. Now I am scrambling for the back-up chute. Time will tell….
--d2m3b