Mimi - P/A behavior IS purposefully conniving and deceitful.

Grape had been doing much better as of late - living without WH, getting a job, being more and more independent.

She wasn't needing WH nearly as much, so WH was forced to do a few of the things she wanted him to do - or at least, seem to do them. Now, to a normal person this would seem healthy, but you have to remember that P/As are emotionally 12 years old and are ANGRY and FRIGHTENED about having their partners "control" them.

If WH does something Grape wants, he will see that not as cooperation but as him "losing" and her "winning" by "controlling" him. He can't have that. So, he gets back at her and regains "control" by setting her up, letting her think things are getting better, and then when she's not looking kicking her in the gut with steel-toed boots.

A grown-up man would have been up front about the divorce from the start.

But a P/A man will do what Grape's WH did and cause as much pain and suffering for her as possible, so she is reduced to a quivering broken heap and HE can feel like HE is in "control" of the situation.

And it worked, didn't it?
Mulan

Mulan:

I see what you are saying about P/A behavior.

But, IMO, Grape's H is a moreso like a garden-variety WH who wants to justify to himself that it's OK to abandon his family and to be with the OW.

He wants to go out smelling like a rose.."I tried..I really tried...my W wanted this divorce..I didn't..I had broken up with the OW"..all justification..all a lie...

I just don't think he cared enough..sad to say..about what Grape was or was not doing...

All he cares about is continuing to be with the OW...and feeling OK with this decision...

Causing suffering and pain and being deceitful and being dishonest with themselves, IMO, is garden variety WS behavior regardless of the personality type....

Good morning (or is it mourning?) from the quivering heap. I am so tired and drained. Sometime during the night, I pulled my back. Now that hurts too. I can't even think.

DD is still asleep. My dogs haven't left my side. I am breaking into tears randomly. Actually, I want to get them out now before DD wakes up. I need to be strong today.

The Boomerang Relationship site about Passive/Aggressive behavior fits H to a T. I read that thread a year ago and had wondered about it. I see some of those tendencies in me also but they are things I've been working on.

I feel to put upon. This has been the classic bait and switch. Cruel and malicious.

I am so over this.

Grape,

Your story really touched me, I pray for strength, courage, and peace for you.

I can't say whether or not your WH is a CA, a PA, or just a selfish jerk! In front of your DD no less, how unfeeling is that? I can say that my WH said exactly the same thing your WH said about feelings, that he didn't have any for me. It hurts a lot.

There seems to be many theories why one person becomes a WS in a marriage and the other one doesn't. If we all agree that most times, the M isn't that great for either person, why/how does one person become one and the other does not? I think it is a lot of things, I don't think it's bc EN's are not being met, otherwise both would become WS's. I do think there is some of the following, in varying degree's, with all WS's at the time they become one, selfishness, need ego boosted (low self-esteem), CA, trying to self-medicate with the OP. Most of this has nothing to do with the BS. As for PA, it seems like those with this behavior tend to be CA's and they are selfish bc in order to be manipulative, you must be thinking of yourself first. I don't think in your sitch your WH thinks of you, puts your feelings and emotional well-being as a priority or as something he should be concerned about, for that I am sorry. I agree that all WS's act in this manner.

My WH was all about himself too, his feelings, his sense of failing, his not being a good father, not trying to make it up to our sons, just feeling sorry for himself. I did get a glimse of him by reading part of a journal of his. What struck me was the selfishness, the entitlement, the world revolves around me and what I want writings. One thing he said is that no one would believe it if they really knew what he was like. I think he showed some of that "real side" to the OW. She understood and could relate bc she was a WS too! I really didn't have a clue that there was this side to my WH. He was always the "nice guy". My WH admitted to being PA, but he doesn't know why he does it. I don't know if he tries to control it. When you know your spouse is one, particularly one that admits it and is a WS, it is very hard to trust them.

I hope you go dark and do not get pulled into more drama. I hope you can look at what a bright future you have. I hope you find peace in the fact that you were considering reconciling for the right reasons, your love for your WH, your children, and the M vows you took. You can hold your head high, you and your children should be proud of you, you are a good role model.

Last night was interesting. H has been calling, calling, calling. I answered because He kept complaining that I was keeping him from DD by not answering the phone. Lame excuse but one I'm not letting him have.

I know, I know. Go black, dark, midnight. When I answer the phone, I don't say anything except hello. He has to keep the conversation up, something he's never done. Boy, does it make him uncomfortable.

H wanted to see me. My back was killing me and I used that as my excuse. He called back 4 times to see if it was feeling better. (My back still feels bad today.) Then he called 3 times again to ask DD out to dinner. She refused every time. She said she was too tired. He called at 10:30 to see if we'd finished watching our movie. (Last Holiday. Very uplifting and funny.)

DD is extremely angry and hurt. H has no idea what he did to her. On Thursday night, when H blindsided me, she was so scared. I'm sorry I lost sight that she was even there when all that was happening. It was traumatic for her. DD called our friend and told her that she didn't feel safe. She had a bag packed waiting at the front door. By the time, her rescue came, H had bolted. Instead, our friend spent the night.

I will be talking to H again. First, H needs to stew for a bit longer. He needs to talk to his counselor and let his meds kick in. He needs to realize that it isn't ALL about him. It will not be a very easy or comfortable talk.

Meanwhile, off to an early showing of Pirates! I'm loaded up on Advil so I'm not in too much pain. ODS says I should do rum shooters before I go! Aye, matie!

if you remain

just out of his reach

he will continue to reach

he's not well enough to be there for you

he wants to touch you for his own comfort

not to be in a fully committed marriage with you

it is what it is

for now

he needs to fall HARD

he is a low-bottom-addict

For me, if this happened to me - once I pulled myself together, I'd recognize the bridge has been burned and I'd proceed to live the best life possible - and live well!

You deserve to live well - and to have someone cherish you and protect you. This juvie stuff can go right back to high school where it belongs - that's the perspective I'd hold close to me as I let go of this man - if I were in your place - he's as immature as the night was long for you Thursday. Forgive him - an adolescent only knows one game to play and it aint marriage-material.

Fight the urge to be his Mommy or his Friend...

DARK, DARK, DARK...for your own sake...

Grape ... why? why? why? Why do you still entertain fantasies of educating him? What do you hope to gain? Your marriage? The satisfaction of being right?

The divorce papers have been signed. You are entering a whole new chapter. You have to treat this step with the seriousness it deserves. It's not the next move in a game.

And you have to protect your daughter from this drama. On Thursday, you didn't do that -- and she is being traumatized as a result.

Please go dark. Please go way way back in Plan B. Really, truly, plan your future without him now.

Is recovery still possible? Well, I suppose, if you still want it it's theoretically possible. But this man is wielding an axe. Please protect yourself, your home, and your family. As the old Helen Reddy song said, "You can't talk to a man/With a shotgun in his hand."

Please don't try to make him see your p.o.v. He's had plenty of time. Please steer clear.

Grape..listen to what Pep and AM and I are saying....

Actually, Recovery of your marriage is possible..if you so choose to ever work on this with your CH...

However, Recovery of your marriage can only occur if you ALLOW HIM TO SUFFER, SUFFER, SUFFER..TO REACH HIS BOTTOM...

In order for him to reach him bottom, he has to have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTACT WITH YOU or even HIS CHILDREN....

This is where my FWH had to go, Grape..and if he returns to you..if you choose to take him back..he will be a wounded, shell of a man...

No discussions with him, Grape..

No more talks...

THE TALKING SHOULD BE COMPLETELY OVER AND DONE WITH....

See him in court or see him on his knees begging to reconcile with you...

Grape - please listen to these posters. You should not be talking to STBXH about ANYTHING right now.

Your only hope is to detach and disconnect from him.

I was not able to detach and disconnect - at least, not the way I needed to - from WH until I understood what Passive/Aggresive behavior was. Understanding that helped me more than I can say. I have had NO contact with him since he left for China and for Florida nearly two weeks ago.

Please read the threads in my .sig line. I suspect that you are dealing with the same thing. If you are, this will help you tremendously.

Come back after reading and we'll talk. I have to catch up on work but I will be back in the next day or so, if not before, and there are other posters on those threads who will be there for you, too.

DO NOT TALK TO HIM!!!
Mulan

Remember whether he's PA or not..I'm not necessarily disagreeing with this...

Don't forget to consider the POV that your WH is an ADDICT..addicted to the OW..and he is trying to seek relief from this..

He is wanting you to OK his decision to divorce or to either legitimize that plan somehow so that he can continue with his drugging without remorse....

It's GREAT that he has begun to suffer...

IMO, I don't think he's sane enough to be PLANNING anything right now..making PLANS to hurt you per se...

It's over, grape. It may not be over -- but it's over.

You have to treat it like it's over. Don't know what your state law reads -- but it's over now unless drastic intervention reverses the present course, and the drastic intervention will have to come from him, not you. He's taken a legal step that moves things dramatically towards finality. Emotionally, he has been terribly terribly abusive and cruel -- and that must be taken seriously too. Please don't treat this like a MB chess game -- how you will "win him back," etc. You've moved beyond that point.

You are helpless to change him. You have been for some time. What you can change is YOU.

Weeping and nagging will not change things -- you've triede that before. You won't be able to talk him into anything.

Grape, I went through an awful, awful sitch, if you are familiar with my story. But with an enormous effort of self-control, never once did I caused the alarm and trauma you did for your kid Thursday. I really think you have to do what you can to protect HER from these kinds of scenes -- as your top priority. I'm not patting myself on the back -- I'm trying to point out the scale of what's happening to HER. Please don't underestimate it.

You are London and this is 1944. Go to your bomb shelter and protect your children. Pray if you like, but please recognize the level of emotional damage that this man can inflict.

And get a good lawyer.

I agree that Grape should act as if her marriage is over.

The point that I am trying to make is this:

I don't think your H is different than any other WH that is addicted to the OP, Grape.

The things that my H did were despicable. I'm sure that there are FWSes who can attest to how low a WS can be...

Sometimes that seems to be forgotten here...IMO...

My H is just as wonderful now as he was horrendous...

I can't say this could be true for Grape or anyone else...

I can't expect anyone else to tolerate what I did...

But this point needs to be made for those who choose to walk the same walk that I did...

It's a choice...

I'm learning to be respectful of others point of view...

By that same token, others, I think, need to be respectful of those who have the similar POV as I do...

It is valuable for children to learn about forgiveness and that people can change...and that miracles can happen...

Wasn't trying to contradict you, Mimi. I just think the stuff WH has pulled in this case is unspeakably cruel and sadistic -- intentionally, unintentionally doesn't matter. So much so that I couldn't even respond to her for a day or so on this thread. And no child should be put into a position where they phone -- or feel they need to phone -- for outside help like this.

If grape still wants her marriage, we're all behind her.

But I think we both agree that he has escalated this legally, as well as emotionally -- and if she wants WH to see the seriousness of the choices he is making, she has to respond very seriously to his legal moves.

And talking is not the way to do this. Churchill didn't negotiate with Hitler while the bombs were dropping over London.

I absolutely agree with you, A.M.

GRAPE, DON'T TALK TO HIM!!!