I did not "insult" Bellemere's parents. It goes without saying that her father was wrong - Bellemere said he was unfaithful. If her mother decided not to try, but to divorce him because of his infidelity, that is her right and understandable (even though it is not what I would have done), so therefore making that statement was not an insult to her. If, on the other hand, the father did not want to work on the marriage, then that was not the fault of the mother, so once again there was no insult to the mother. Cheating on your spouse and then leaving them is wrong - if you view that statement as an insult, then I don't think Marriage Builders is the right place for you to be.

How in the WORLD would you know this for a fact? That THIS was the reason the marriage didn't work?

Because if both parties want to stay married, they will. People don't get divorced unless somebody files, obviously. People don't separate unless someone moves out. Divorce is a conscious decision on at least one person's part.

But how do you know that one or both didn't try? Maybe they did try, and it didn't work.

You know, Nellie, I'm really not out to argue with you. The only point I'm trying to make here is, whether we want it or not, divorce does exist. Even for those who have tried very hard to make it work. It happens, and the point of this thread is to offer hope to those, like us, that there is life after divorce. We don't have to dwell for the rest of our lives about what "wasn't". And frankly, this is a relief to me, because how miserable life would be, if I could have never let go.

But, the bottom line here, divorce happens. For many different reasons. But this doesn't mean that we can't still be happy. The world does not have to come to an end, just because we are divorced. And to be honest, I feel I did my kids a favor by removing them from a VERY unhealthy and dysfunctional marriage, while their father was still drinking and using drugs. They now know, that some behaviors are just not acceptable under ANY circumstances.

Jen

What do you mean by didn't work? It's not the same as trying unsuccessfully to fix a car. People may try with varying degrees of success to improve the quality of their relationship, but a marriage will continue unless one or both people make a conscious decision to end it.

Murder also exists, whether we like it or not (presumably not). There is life after murder, for the survivors. Few would claim, however, that murder is not devastating, life-altering, and wrong. Few would try to justify it and say it is for the best. Children are virtually always harmed by the murder of a parent. It benefits society to reduce the murder rate, and it benefits society to reduce the divorce rate. It benefits no one to attempt to trivialize the effects of either one.

Nellie, do you believe that a marriage should stay together, no matter what? Even when it can be potentially dangerous? Under what circumstances would you condone divorce?

When I say "didn't work", for me, I had spent my marriage trying to "fix" him and his problem. I went to Al-Anon, and learned that I could NOT change him. He would drink, use drugs and sleep around, and I did NOT have the power to "save" him. But I did, however, learn that I had choices. If I stayed, I had to accept the fact that he would not change, and learn how to live with it. Or I could choose to leave. I had tried EVERYTHING to "fix" the marriage. I begged for counseling, or therapy. I tried to change myself, FOR him. And I did change, but NOT for the better! It was going downhill, REAL fast! And I had to decide if this was what I wanted for my children or not. So I left. And I have NO regrets about it.

So what would be an acceptable reason to divorce, for you? I am curious to know. (Not being flippant, here.)

Jen

I doubt if I, personally, would divorce for any reason. I understand why some would divorce when their lives or those of their children were in danger from any of various forms of physical/sexual abuse, and under those circumstances I would not live with the abuser, who would hopefully be in jail.

I do not believe that divorce is acceptable for any reason other than the commission of a felony - assault, rape, murder, etc.

Ok, Nellie. I respect that.

My XH did commit a felony, and did 5 years in prison. He is clean now and remarried. We get along fine. And although I'm not "chummy" with his new wife, we still get along fine. They live in another state, and I wish them the best.

Very interesting thread. I just want to add a couple of comments.

In regards to vows...

Yes you both do make a "until death do us part..." but you also both make a "forsake all others..." Once any of these vows have been broken by either of the partners how much do they really mean anymore? If you both are not prepared to do everything it takes to restore your marriage (and reinstate your vows) after a vow has been broken then in my humble opinion your just delaying the inevitable. A marriage cannot be saved with just the effort of one partner, they both have to be 100% committed.

In regards to negative effect of divorce on children...

I've talked with quite a few adults that were products of divorce. One interesting thing that I've heard a couple of times is of kids who wondered why their parents didn't divorce sooner. They saw the way one parent was treating the other and asked why didn't they leave sooner. Of course all kids would like the utopian family but living in a family that is permanently dysfunctional can be worse than living in a divorced family.

I applaud those who can work through infidelity and achieve marital success but its no small hill to climb, especially in an already dysfunctional marriage. The people involved have to be truly dedicated to making it work.

Miker

And before "forsaking all others" or "til death do us part", we "promise to love, honor and cherish".

Let's look at that:
LOVE
To have a deep, tender, ineffable feeling of affection and solicitude toward (a person). To have a feeling of intense desire and attraction toward (a person). To have an intense emotional attachment to. To embrace or caress. To have sexual intercourse with.
HONOR
To hold in respect; esteem. To show respect for.
CHERISH
To treat with affection and tenderness; hold dear.

So that is the first promise, and following Miker's line of thought, if you are breaking the first promise, what is the point of the "forsaking all others" or "til death" part?

If I don't honor the first promise, or the first and second promise, how can I expect my husband to keep the third one?

Keeping the first promise, "to love, honor, and cherish" -- is essential.

Because you did not promise to love, honor, cherish, or forsake all others if and only if your spouse does too. Wrongdoing by one spouse does not justify wrongdoing by the other.

Taken to the extreme, what you propose would mean that if spouse A were to get angry at spouse B and say something unaffectionate, then spouse A would be justified in immediately running out of the house to sleep with someone else. Or, if spouse A decided he was not sufficiently loved, as do many who are clinically depressed, he would be justified in having an affair.

I don't believe in matching the crime, for the sake of being even or fair. But why tolerate it, unless there is a committment in working on the issues. Without the committment, where is the true meaning?

Because you made the commitment - if people wanted caveats in their marriage vows, they should include them, not try to add them retroactively. The true meaning is in the fact that by remaining faithful to your commitment, you are remaining faithful to yourself.

And then there is the issue of nebulousness. While it is pretty clear that a spouse who sleeps with someone else has broken the "forsaking all others" part of the vow, the "love, honor, and cherish" part is much more nebulous, and often misinterpreted by the other spouse. There is no way, for instance, to tell for sure whether or not your spouse loves you - does forgetting your birthday mean he doesn't? Does giving you an expensive necklace mean he does? Someone can be perfectly polite to you and feel no respect for you, or they can call you an idiot and mean nothing disrespectful by it. Whether you feel loved or respected is often completely unrelated to whether your spouse actually loves or respects you, so you can not use how you feel as an indication of your spouse's feelings.

Leaving the feelings out of the equation, I believe that actions reveal quite a bit about a person. It is obvious that if your spouse has slept with someone outside of the marriage, that you are, infact, being disrespected.

How does one remain committed to the "uncommitted"? I know it's very common, but how are you really being true to yourself, by holding onto something that isn't real? If it were real, the committment would be from both spouses.

Actions speak louder than words or anything else.

As far as I'm concerned a marriage is between two people and only two people. As soon as you bring a third person in it isn't a marriage anymore. Yes some vows are pretty nebulous, but I think the two person thing is pretty clear unless your a polygamist.

To me if something like that happens, its like starting over but there is no way its going to work (no matter how dedicated you are to your vows) with a third person involved.

In some ways I agree with Nellie that sometimes people use their vows as an "easy out" but infidelity and physical abuse are a whole different story. I don't think you should even question a person who wants out after being a victim of one of those things. They are pretty black and white to me. They have no place in a marriage whatsoever.

Cheers,

Miker