You know, at a certain point this whole EN concept bothers me. It seems to smack of ... moral relativism to shrug off any behavior or value system as simply someone's emotional need.

"My emotional need is for others to slavishly admire me for all the stuff I buy. I like to treat waiters like crap because I have an emotional need to feel superior to others -- it helps my self-esteem, you know. And as soon as my wife gets old, I'm going to dump her because my top EN is an attractive spouse. I know she can't help aging, but hey, what can I do? I have an emotional need and that's all that matters." And everyone nods and says, "Ah well, that's not WRONG it's just different! And who are we to judge someone else's emotional needs?"

This all bothers me in a way I can't quite articulate, but perhaps I'm old-fashioned.

hoopsie,

I believe I understand. Let me see if I do. You are saying that not all stated EN's are moral, given your set of values.

I agree. Someone whose stated EN's includes getting sloppy drunk every weekend probably doesn't share my values.

You and I are free to choose partners who have compatible emotional needs. We may not agree with the ENs of another person. But we all have the freedom not to have a relationship with those who have what we would consider offensive ENs.

Personally, I choose not to hang out with murders, rapists and unfaithful women.

But it's God's job to ultimately judge them, not mine.

But it goes beyond just having the freedom to not have a relationship with someone who has an emotional need to feel like a big shot by abusing waiters.

Why do we teach children to share, to be kind, to keep their promises, to not be greedy, to not brag, etc., if we can actually teach them that any impulse they have is okay as long as they can chalk it up to their individual and ever-changing "emotional needs"? Is it because we all instinctively know that their "emotional needs" stop at the point where hurting someone else begins? That there is often a conflict between what we want to do and what we should do, and shrugging and pointing to our EN is not an excuse for always doing the former? That human relationships and our commitments to and place in the world cannot and should not be boiled down to whatever selfish impulse we can label an EN?

Like I said, I'm not sure I'm articulating this well.

Perhaps you might want to see in MSN.com is still running those articles about how differing views on finances, etc., affect relationships.

I don't think we are acting counter to this. I can still teach my YD to be kind, generous, thrifty, yet also teach her to be wise about who she is with, gracious to allow others to be what they choose to be, etc.

It's not my job or your job to change another adult person. So we don't have to like the EN's of another person. But I believe we are to be gracious enough to let them make their own decisions and live with the results and/or consequences.

I look at it this way, if the OM that hooked up with my now ex-WW was willing to give up his marriage of 30 years, the respect of his family and kids and 1/2 or more of everything, then I'm sure he will pay in other ways.

He certainly has lost respect, his children will see him in a different light. Perhaps my XW will be the only one at his funeral, as he's alienated many of the people who love him.

Likewise, my XW left a man of 38 to be with a man who is 52. So it's likely that she will be a widow much sooner, than had she stayed with me.

People make decisions that we don't agree about everyday.

I don't care for SUV's and think automatic transmissions are the work of the devil. But I don't judge someone because they come to a different conclusion than I do regarding vehicle choice.

Who am I to say someone else is selfish? To say this is likely a DJ.

Just because I like Wal*Mart brand water, and someone else will only drink Eveian doesn't make me or them superior or inferior. We simply have different values.

If someone values physical beauty over intellect, so what. You are probably better off without that person. So why do you need to criticize them for having different values than you?

Being critical of another persons values doesn't make you a better person.

My goal is not to be better than anyone else, it's to be the best me, I can be, regardless what the rest of the world is doing.

I have enough on my plate concentrating on being the best me I can be. So I choose to not worry about others and their values. I simply choose if I want to hang with them or not.

Also, no one is saying that being an "A**hole" or a "jerk to waiters" is a valid emotional need.

We are working with the Harley's list -- and admiration is a valid EN.

Another very controversial one is having an attractive spouse. Just because you may not require physical beauty in your partner, doesn't make it WRONG for someone else to.

You don't have to appreciate it or like it. But you're not going to convince anyone that their needs are wrong, and only your point of view is acceptable.

What I'm understanding from hoopsie is this: Some people will take the concept of ENs & use it in an extreme & selfish way, thus abusing, or making suspect, some things we might choose to call an EN.

Perhaps, but what I read was she is discounting the idea of ENs because some folks can abuse it.

So do we throw out every idea because someone might abuse it?

WOW!!! a chick fight!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

pleasseeee already....""he would fill a funeral home"" blah blahblah .....

whatever.....

face it, you are SECOND FIDDLE like it or not, and you vent because down deep inside it HURTS and you are trying to cover it up....

at the same time, now you are faced with having to defend a selfish self centered man....

its like someone who lives in a shack in the ghetto but drives the escalde with diamond dubs and a bumpin stereo, wears all the right clothes and all the flash just to show off....

you need to ask what your BF major insecurities are...i see a few just from what you typed....

HEY WORLD....LOOK AT ME!!! IM A SOMEBOBY CUZ I GOT A BIG TV AND NICE EXPENSIVE THINGS!!!

but i really LOVE my GF, so ill be a cheap wad and buy her a piece of glass to wear on her finger and roar off into the sunset driving my sports car!!!

maybe this is the life you want....i dunno...but i hate FAKE, SELFISH and FLASHY people....go watch an episode of PIMP MY RIDE!!! cuz it sounds like he's livin "PIMP MY LIFE!" and you aint in it!!!

but obviously it bothered you enough to write a "vent" about it....STOP being treated like second class!!!

this should be a wake up call for you, you might set yourself up for alot of disapointment in the future.

Yikes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I'm tip toeing outta here backwards hoping nobody's looking my way! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Duck! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Attractive spouse and financial security seem like the diciest of ENs, because the fulfillment of them are not totally within your control the way, say, conversation is. People get laid off, Ken Lay wipes out your retirement package, people get old. What are you going to do, bail then?

Actually, I remember a post on some midlife forum where the 58-year-old husband came home and calmly and not unkindly told his wife that he was divorcing her because he "needed" to be with younger women. He was getting older, feeling his mortality, and wanted to have sex with lots of young pretty women before he died. The betrayed wife, obviously stunned, begged him to discuss their marriage, go to counseling, asked what she could do to please him, etc. The husband again quite calmly said, "Nothing. There is nothing you can do because you are 57 years old and no matter how much you try or how well-groomed you are, you cannot be 32. And that's what I want now -- a 32-year-old. Best of luck." And there she lay, gasping on the floor.

I'm sorry, I find the cruelty and selfishness of that act to really be breathtaking. But it's okay because he has an EN that "requires" physical beauty? Rubbish. And I'll call it wrong until the cows come home. DJ, you betcha. So shoot me.

I'm critical of lots of people's values. I'm critical of, say, Stalin's values. I'm critical of the values of your ex-WW who walked out on her commitment to you and her children. I'm critical of the values of the guy who drinks his paycheck while his children go hungry. I'm critical of the values of the woman I saw the other day who cursed at her kid at the store.

And you're suggesting that being critical of that is a nasty old DJ? Uh, okay. Guilty.

I guess you would be even more critical since she took the kid. She was a SAHM, so she had a better precedent than did I.

While I'm sure I agree with most of your values, I can't force them on anyone.