JL, you keep very late hours for such an old guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

j/k.

Honeygirl, listen to this man. He's wonderful.

HG, did Jesus come back from his 40 days in the desert protesting, "That Satan...how dare he try to tempt me! I'm the Son of God!! He should have shown some respect!"

The whole point was to be tempted...and to resist.


Well, all of us can be naive and innocent. I can buy this argument up to a point. I can buy the idea that much of the relationship was ambiguous and didn't trigger alarms in your head.

However, I can't buy it all the way to the point of fiddling with each other's genitalia.

At some point, things stopped being ambiguous. There had to be a moment when things crossed the line. Only you know that moment - a hand on your breast, a kiss, fingers on your thigh? There were probably many small alarm-bell moments, but there had to be a moment when you unequivocably KNEW a line had been crossed.

At that moment, you had to make a choice.

If you had really been utterly naive, that was the moment for slapping his face, being shocked, walking away. That was the moment for defending your boundaries, for showing respect for YOUR marriage, YOUR husband. But you didn't. You heard the alarm bell and you ignored it. You gave yourself permission to give in to temptation.

I'll say that again: you gave yourself permission to give in to temptation.

There is no way to recover yourself from what you've done, without forcing yourself to face up to that moment when you gave yourself permission. Identify the moment, and run it again and again through your mind until you start to see the feelings behind that decision. Those feelings came from the part of you that is not the nice Catholic girl you want to believe you are. (And I'm a Catholic girl of patchy niceness myself.)

All of us, without exception (even Jesus), have those dark feelings inside of us.

Unless you acknowledge that they're there, they control you.

Jesus was genuinely tempted by Satan, remember. He was offered a lot more than a furtive [censored] in a hired bed...he was offered the world. He had to acknowledge his dark desires, the temptation he felt...and resist them with his human strength.

He didn't whine that Satan was a bit of a charmer...

TA

PS. JL is wonderful. Please listen to him.

Excellant post!....Stellar responses!...awesome insight & advice!

It is amazing to me how similar As can be...and yet so many different propsepctives and responses..to touch and cover all the basis...for anyone who is here questioning, or reading!...

I seem to always be able to take a small bit of knowledge and even power, from the responses here...knowledge to help continue to make the right choices, and try to understand and look at both sides...and the power to change myself and our marriage to make it stronger & better than ever!...

KUDOS! to all who continue to post their trials & triumphs here, and help guide those who are struggling!!!!

HG

Step one in any recovery is to admit what you did and then own it.

Yes the OM was disrespectful, a louse, a piece of crap (which always makes me wonder why WW's and FWW's found any redeeming qualities about men like this)
Yes, your M wasn't what it needed or what you would have like it to be.
Yes, you had some time apart from your husband.
Yes, you were vulnerable at the time
Yes, to all of this and more

BUT, it was you who allowed the OM to cross boundaries reserved for your husband. It was you had sex with the OM, he did not rape you. It was you who discarded all that you were for a few minutes of "feeling special, wanted, needed, understood". It was you who betrayed your husband, family, friend" It was you, it was you, it was you....

It can only BE you that starts to help unravel this mess and get your M on the road to recovery. Your husband's self esteem and whole soul is destroyed. He's earned a break. The fact that he wants to be married to you will have to be enough for now. It is your job to start making the sacrifices, commitments, answering the questions, etc needed to get your M started towards recovery. Your H loves you, this is obvious by him still wanting to be married to you. He will come around when he sees the changes in you and effort from you to help him and your M heal from this devestating event.

This was, is and will be about YOU...not some circumstance, OM, family member, or anything else, YOU!

You are a smart woman and someone who wants her M to survive or you wouldn't be here. Not stop worrying about what someone or something did that helped you get to where you are today and start doing something about healing your M. Start by accepting that this is all about you and what you wanted, needed, felt entitled to and so on. Just like an alcoholic can never truly recover until they admit that they are an alcoholic so is the same with a WS.

Honeygirl,

I would like to take just a minute or two to further illustrate the concern that JL has outlined above.

He has concisely outlined why your reasons for the affair are missing the mark. It is of course his observation of the words that you are posting. He merely offers his view for your consideration.

There is a cliché that accompanies discussions of the wayward spouse in these forums, it is, “Owning the affair”. It refers to the wayward spouse’s complete and utter acceptance of a poor choice, that is, the choice to have an affair or more concisely, “Owning the affair”.

This concept can be explained to you but you are in no way obligated to accept it. You will unfortunately find that for many here, both wayward and betrayed alike, this cliché is much, much more then just a cliché, it is necessary first step towards recovery.

You have made great pains to describe how and why your affair partner was a low-life scumbag. You describe how he manipulated and maneuvered his way into your pants. You describe yourself as a victim who is now wise to lies of such men and could never again fall prey to fancy words and compliments.

So what happens when a good, decent man knocks on your door?

What about the man that you eat lunch with almost every day, the one that you were talking to on the telephone the other day? Innocent to you, perhaps, but I doubt that your husband thinks that was appropriate behavior. What do you think, what do you really, really think about this?

Your husband will never rest easy in this marriage with the fear that one day someone better then him will ask for your favor.

Yesterday, I posted to you that you might consider a “concrete” plan. This plan would address the foolproof manner that would ALWAYS keep your husband feeling safe and secure in the marriage. I will tell you that if you consult with the Harley’s they will require you to author such a plan for your husband’s approval. It is a gesture of love and promise that produces results. It is the real-deal; I don’t make this stuff up. Analytical stuff for an analytical mind, right?

So far, from what I see, your plan is a plan of spoken words and assurance none of which guarantee long-term results. It is very clear that you are in love with your husband and that you are so sorry for the affair and wish it never happened. I believe that you intend to never again have an affair. HG, I believe all these things that you are saying… today,

But what about tomorrow?

Please don’t take offence but I don’t think you have a plan. Perhaps the wisdom of having a plan is eluding you or you don’t believe a plan is important to your recovery. My feelings won’t be hurt if you ignore such advice. Like JL, I have only made an observation regarding the words that you post in this huge forum. What I may or may not think is only important to you if you think those words have merit.

Best of luck in future efforts to recover,

Mr. G

Mr. G, I do agree that I have received some wonderful advice and I am considering it all carefully. I agree with you that we have both discovered how deep our love for each other is and that is a beautiful thing. That is why neither of us has quit. At least I can say that I truly want to restore my marriage. I see that my H is still not that convinced he wants to do that, but he is still here so I guess that means a lot.

I agree with your description of my H’s feelings. He tells me he loves me more than anything in this world, but at the same time he hates me because I have cause him more suffering that no one else.

I think that both my H and I have realized that marriage is more than walking down the aisle. It requires that partnership that you mention and it requires daily “work”. You cannot simply let it take its own course. That is something that my H and I have talked about these days. There is this ideal vision that getting married is so easy and love takes care of everything, but the reality is that you have to “work” towards that everyday. It is not “work” per se because it is fun and rewarding, but you have to dedicate time and have a plan, be organized, have that commitment, etc. In a sense, I think neither of us had realized that.

About that plan that you mention, I do agree I need a plan. The plan includes the transparency, including letting him know what is going on with my life through all those methods you suggest. I have already being doing that for some time now. I still have to think about the point where I crossed the line and I understand that is key to the plan, to the recovery, and to the prevention of a future affair.

I will read your other post again, and will reflect on that later. Thanks, HG

[color:"red"] HELP! [/color] Just a few minutes after submitting my last post my H asked me why I had charged the hotel (the night spent with the OM) to the credit card that he had no access to instead of using the credit card we always used. Just as a background, I was stupid enough to charge it to MY credit card because the OM had no credit card on his own (without his W). The OM was going to pay me later, but he never did. Anyway, my H just asked me that. He wants me to be honest with him so I told him that at that moment I could not charge it to the one we always used because he was going to see that and I had no way of explaining to him what that charge was all about. He said that if there was really nothing fishy going on with the guy, if he was just a friend, I would not have thought about hiding that charge. Therefore, that I knew that what I was doing was wrong and I still did it. Well, I accept that I knew that something about going to a hotel with another guy was wrong and that is why I was hiding it. I didn’t really know as a fact we were going to end up having sex. He is all mad now because he says he can never trust me because I hide stuff when I know I am doing something that is not right. Well, that was the mistake that I made and that is what I am trying to fix. But how can I meditate about the point where I crossed the line if I tell him what was behind my decisions and he gets angry about it? [color:"red"] He just asked me to leave the room and even better, the pick up my things and leave the apartment.[/color] It is just a crazy rollercoaster of emotions. This morning we had sex, and he told me some beautiful things, and now this. What should I do?

This "rollercoaster of emotions" is EXACTLY that. It's the normal response for those of us who've been betrayed by our spouses in this manner.

What you need to do is to quietly remind him that nothing's changed...you told him the truth about that bad choice. You regret it, and are very sorry for how it's made him feel.

Sit back quietly for a bit (not sulk, just give him a bit of space to sort out his feelings), and talk with him when he's ready to talk again.

He IS on a rollercoaster. One many of us know well. It's ******...on you, and on him. He's trying to process all that he's been put through by this. For you, this stuff is "in the past". For him, he relives it constantly. Every new nuance, every new revelation is a fresh blast of salt on the open wound in his heart.

It gets better. Keep on loving him, keep showing him that you're with him through this, that you're willing to do whatever it takes to help him get through all of this.

Don't expect it to end tomorrow...it's going to take TIME and WORK on both of your parts to heal from this.

No one believes that. The fact is you conspired with a married man to secretly rent a hotel room for the purpose of becoming intimate. That is the cleaned up version, there is of course a much more graphic version but I assume that your husband has already described that version to you. There is NO other explanation that can ever be considered by a rational thinking human being.

If you want to stay then you must tell your husband that you intend to stay and stay with him. You must help him to understand that you are going NO WHERE, not today, not tomorrow, not ever. You must pledge your love and loyalty to him. You made a mistake, it was a biggie but you are going no where.

He is calling you out. He wants to see if you will blink. He wants to reassure himself that you are worth his effort. He wants to know if there is more pain beneath the covers so he is peeling them back to look. But more then anything, he doesn’t want to be with someone who doesn’t want to be with him. He wants to know for sure that is why he presents you with the option to leave.

Are you sure of your choices? Are you sure you want to be with him? DO NOT tell him that you want to be with him unless you are certain.

Mr. G

Did he know about the credit card charge before today? Did you tell him about it? If not you haven't given him the whole truth yet. I would do that pretty soon. It might avoid this kind of problem in the future.

Honeygirl,
if my WH would have said "Hey, I went to a hotel with OW, and charged it on a VISA card that I knew you wouldn't be seeing the statements for.. but really.. I didn’t really know as a fact we were going to end up having sex."
.. that would really, really tick me off too !

Because I'd ask.. So what WERE you doing there?
What could possibly be your intention for going to a hotel with someone else, and paying with a "secret" VISA card?

I didn't know as a fact we were going to end up having sex..
what does that mean?
I didn't know OP would go for it or not?
I didn't know yet if I would go for it or not?
Yes, I would be ticked off plenty too.

This being said..
Let your H cool off.
He'll be triggered by a lot of stuff for some time, but it will get better.
Any chance of getting into counseling together?
To have a neutral person there with you?

And please - try to be (or remain) totally honest.
I got so sick of all the lies and covering up.

??

Let's get this straight. You went to a hotel with the OM, you booked a room, paid for it carefully with an unattributable credit card...but you thought that might be an innocent activity if you didn't end up with your clothes off? What did you think might happen in that hotel room? If you'd watched the TV, had a drink or two from the minbar then gone home, would that somehow or other been OK? What is remotely innocent about two adults booking a hotel room without telling their spouses?

If I were your H, I would be angry if you'd claimed that the sexual infidelity was spontaneous and unplanned, when your actions suggest a fairly premeditated path. Someone who has time to think about which credit card to use is not someone who is being hustled into a decision. Your H's anger is, I think, about your unwillingness to acknowledge your own culpability and weakness.


Meditating about your own inner world is an activity for you alone. What you choose to share with your H is something you have to think about carefully, because much of it will hurt him - it will reveal how little you were concerned about his happiness and well-being, and that is very hard for any of us to hear from our spouse. If he asks you questions, and you answer honestly, the chances are high that he will be hurt and will lash out. That's part of the consequences you've 'earned' through your infidelity.

HG, there's a thread that runs through your posts, and I'm going to raise it although you won't like to hear it. It's a sense that the world ought to behave in certain ways, and that if it doesn't, you are entitled to be aggrieved. You feel that your H ought not to behave in ways that upset you. You feel that the OM ought to have behaved with more chivalry than he did. You even seem to have felt that God ought not to have allowed your mother to be ill - that seems to have been enough to test your faith.

I think you need to start there - with that sense of entitlement.

A poster called Gimble used to have a tagline that said 'Infidelity is caused by entitlement, fuelled by resentment and lack of respect'. I've come to realise how accurate that is.

Have compassion for your H. You have no idea how much agony he is in.

TA

"I didn’t really know as a fact we were going to end up having sex."

Bwaaahhaaaaaahaaa. Hoo . Hee . Hah . . .

Without a doubt, this belongs on the Best WS Sayings thread.


"The OM was going to pay me later, but he never did."

Smart OM, though.

Honey,

In essence it sound like your husband is asking you to own your affair, just the way that Just Learning and others have tried to talk to you about, yet you ain't buying it... As a result of that, you can see, that your husband ain't buying it either....

FULL OWNERSHIP, while painful, is the quickest path to recovery.....



PS..... C'mon... You have to see a problem with that whole "I didn't know for a fact we were going to do it".... Let's get real... What did you bring your scrabble game to the hotel that you paid for on the secret card hoping to polish your skills..... I went to McDonalds the other day and knew without reading the warning that the coffee was hot, some things are just common sense.....

I think a couple of things tick me off -- like when the OM told her "I want to kiss you" and then they started on this whole conversation of where (the cheek, on the lips, etc). I believe they finally agreed on the mouth and then they started chatting about where it was going to happen. After talking for a while, HG suggested our apartment so she brought him here. When I asked her why didn't you stop it there, she said that she didn't think it was really going to happen. How specific does a man have to get about his intentions???

This whole time she's justifying this as a friendship gone awry, and that she never wanted it to get physical, she always just wanted a friend. If that's true, then why did she change her email password 2 weeks before their first kiss? I even found a letter she had written 2 weeks before their first sexual encounter than when we were having sex she was wondering how sex would be with the OM.

Okay HG,

Here are my two cents..and some things I have learned from this site...more importantly some things I have learned from being a WW myself!

In your posts you seem to still be "rationalizing" your actions with the OM.... [color:"red"] S-T-O-P! [/color]
I know that it is difficult..for when you stop rationalizing you have to begin to look at the A for what it was...not for the what you "thought" it was.

There are many here who have been in your shoes...walked this same path, and have made it through!.. you can too! But...you MUST MUST change your thinking...stop rationalizing...stop protecting the A in your heart...and begin to see... REALLY SEE

You will be angry at the OM...you will be angry with yourself!... you will be frustrated with your husband's questions. But listen to the solid advice from those who have been there...(Pep..Katie Mae...KiwiJ...and others) let their voices become the sound of reason in your head...

It is not easy...as you can see by the many posts and varied responses you have received here!..However, one thing is true... you must be honest ...as one poster said..."the sex hurts..but the LIES ..the LIES destroy"

Try to be patient with your husband, as he goes through this as well. Rememebr each bit of info is like jabbing him with pins & needles....each lie is a twist of the knife....

Be patient..be honest...and change the way you look at that "past relationship"....(by the way..one of the hardest parts is when you admit to yourself...the "relationship" was an affair!..the second will be asking your husband for forgivenes...)

I have learned that ....typing it...saying it...reading it....is wonderful therapy...the hard part is "WORKING IT!

Good luck to you...you can do this... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HG, I just bumped a thread for you by my good friend kyellow. You can find it here
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post1251733

nice post 2-crazy

Otilleb,

“I think a couple of things tick me off…”

What, only a couple? Can I trade places with you? Seriously, you don’t need to minimize any of this. I know it all ticks…and loudly…

But I do have a small suggestion for you.

Don’t dig too deep for sordid details.

I speak from experience. I did dig deeply for a while and then I tired of it. But even then, there came a time when I wish I had not asked about even what I did ask about.

Reasons, justifications, thought processes, accurate timelines, the truth to clear up each and every lie – all important to uncover and understand. For both of you.

Degree of betrayal, including protection and penetration. Yes, you need to know these important facts.

Which way he bent her? Don’t bother. In the long run it is not worth knowing. It becomes obsessive and often prurient very quickly.

We are all different, so take this advice with a grain of salt. Just telling you I’ve been there and I would do it slightly different in hindsight.

Some knowledge can indeed make your long term personal recovery a little harder than it needs to be.


With prayers,

It seems that many take a different stand on this one. The most popular view is to advise the BS to ask as much as from the WS as they feel necessary to heal. There doesn’t seem to be much to argue with that position. Nevertheless, I would careful consider the words of Aphelion.

At this point you may not know what you need to heal. You may inadvertently solicit your wife to answer questions that will haunt you for years to come. Be certain of your needs.

In the initial month following D-day my wife reluctantly told me most anything I asked. Then one day she simply refused to provide me any more information except the general stuff. She told me that if I really wanted to know then I should ask our marriage counselor the question and then she would fully answer it, but only if I asked the marriage counselor first.

I guess I found out that there were some things that just were not so important.

I think that overall this was a positive in helping me through recovery. I am glad that someone put a stop to my digging. I doubt that I would have stopped.

Some may tell you that the canvas of their mind needs to be filled with the entire picture, but for me it would have done more harm then good.

Mr. G