Well Frog, you've worked very hard here. It sounds like it's time to let it go, get the lawyers involved, and take care of yourself. As hopeandpray said, let the attorney be the HEAVY now, ask for what you want and need and step back.

Congratulations on becoming a NON-SMOKER! You are doing great! Keep quitting (as I don't think saying don't quit is appropriate here). Consider it the start of your new happier, healthier, life. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Can you institute a Plan B for yourself? I know your living situation doesn't currently allow a true Plan B, but you could still go through many of the motions. Anyway, my 2 cents.

I know.

Next week I need to get the lawyer. Need to put all my stuff in order.

I already told her today we are going to have custody problems. I respect her for not drinking etc. but she thinks 9 - 10 month's of sobriety makes up for everything.

I just told her to disclose to her attorney some of the things I will be bringing to court.

I don't know about the DJing or LBing. I feel so much disgust for myself right now.

I put my heart out this morning saying how the way she has treated me hasn't been right. I told her she has hurt me a lot. Her answer was she was sorry and it's too bad we have to get a D.

She never tried. I kept wishing one day she would be like the other FWW here but that didn't happen.

So now the lawyers can duke it out.

She wanted to take YS to dinner because we weren't getting along YS went with me instead. LOL.

I told her that too. The fact that YS is so darn attached to me will say something to the court.

Well next chapter of life here I come. I think it will be easier though.

She will need to get a full time job and go to meetings and take care of the kids we will see.

I loved her up until this morning. Oh well.

To all WS or FWS out there. If you believe your BS will never forgive you LEAVE IMMEDIATELY do not pretend to want to stay. Because if you think they won't forgive you they won't because you won't do the things necessary always saying, you are never going to forgive me anyway.

Then one day the BS will say I don't want you anymore. Not because of the A but because you seemed unrepentant and unremorseful. Then you can say see I knew it, glad I didn't put too much energy into that thing.

I think that is what has happened here.

Well FNM, I hope you can find peace now. There's no need to fight or be stressed any more.

(((((((((Frog))))))))

You have put on such a brave face and it's time to let the pain go. Look, we all know how strong you are, and that's great, but this is a huge blow to your psyche. I completely agree with you assessment of the WS that does their own catch22 (believing their [email]d@mned[/email] if they do, [email]d@mned[/email] if they don't, so they may as well DON'T).

You are going to be better than okay, your life is going to be so much more relaxed and your mind will be free from this turmoil. Believe me, my Plan B is working for me. I'm letting go and living again. Just living; I feel good, working on great!

Get the lawyer, iron things out, and move on. Read up on the transition for your children and do what you can to 'soften' the blow. We're here for you when you need to talk about legal stuff, emotional stuff, and growth.

Well the pain has become too much.

I look at my FWW and I don't like her. Her talking in circles has now made me very dizzy.

I guess I am just a little crazy here. LOL. Maybe asking for any comprimise was wrong. LOL.

So here is what really has pissed me off beyond belief. We cannot talk about anything in the past. Fine, OK, Great but now the rule was in place for me she has a different set for herself.

Then her skewed perception of the past. I am tired of talking about how bad she had it. I know I haven't been the greatest husband that I know. But look I had some very good reasons at times to go off of my rocker. Good bad or indifferent it happened. Now she has given herself permission to talk about the fights but not what led to the fight.

Then the fact she so far has refused to even consider that it is a possibility that in some of these famous fights she started it.

Then the biggest slap in the face. I told her how much it hurt she refused to be honest with me. She said she didn't know how much it hurt me. I said I kept telling you how it was killing me. She said I thought you had ulterior motives for asking and that's why I didn't want to tell you.
I said yes I did have an ulterior motive. I wanted to protect myself from future harm and pain. Details kept slipping out from everyone you involved and that hurt. So my ulterior motive was to stop that.

So she keeps saying I haven't been nice to her. I said does it count I got you the new car? Does it count I watch the kids 2 - 3 times a week while you go to meetings. Does it count when your back hurts I give you massages. Does it count you call me a lot during the day. What counts as being nice.

On your end what do you do? I mean what is it I am missing. What I see is you decide everything. You decide whether or not you want to count my stuff and you don't but you count your stuff.

I have asked her above and beyond what normal husband and wife stuff, what she does that is extra and nice? So far she has not answered that one question but I expect too much.

LOL.

So I took the newer car. I like it. She has had the nicer car since whe have met and now I do. She doesn't appreciate it why should I provide it. She has said I am mean and I am always making comments. I told her maybe I will do that until the D. She told me that isn't nice. I told her she should be used to it if she was right and I have been doing it for the last 3 years. I mean I don't think I have, I know I haven't, heck why not do it now.

I have made her life miserable because her actions affected me. Now she can see how good she had it. Poor little baby.

YOU haven't been nice to HER. OK, yeah, I can see how having an affair is a super sweet gesture to your spouse! ZOIKS!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Again, I will say, institute a no fly zone for yourself. She may not enter that state of mind. Kind of a Plan B while still having to negotiate and talk about 'business'. It sounds like talks between the two of you will only cause more unnecessary pain.

frog - again, you are trying to reason with her as if she was a normal person. That is nothing but a gift on a silver platter to a P/A, and that platter has a butcher knife on it which she will gleefully use to rip your heart out just as she did again this morning.

I fully understand and support your wishing to get a divorce, but you are still going to have to deal with her because of your children.

Therefore: Please stop trying to reason with her and explain things to her and trying to make her understand and see things your way. She understands what you are saying perfectly well. That's why she is so good at using your every last word as a weapon against you.

Please Stop This!

Either CALL HER OUT on her P/A crap, or SAY NOTHING.

For example:


You should have stopped right here and said only, "You are a very smart and perceptive woman. You knew exactly how I felt and you knew exactly what I wanted because I've told you a million times. But YOU made the choice to keep me at arm's length and therefore wreck any chance we ever had to be a couple. You have won, because we are not a couple. I really hope this has made you feel good because somebody in this mess ought to be happy and feeling good. I'm not and the kids are not, so I sure as h*ll hope it's you. Have a nice day."

THEN WALK AWAY


Again, frog, this is how you talk to a normal reasonable person. It's not how you talk to a P/A whom you KNOW will only use your words and feelings to control and defeat you.

When you gonna learn this, frog? She's driving you insane with her P/A crap and laughing all the way to the looney bin. As long as you try to reason with her, SHE GETS TO WIN. You have seen that NOTHING matters to a P/A more than "winning" - not their marriage, not their family, not their career, nothing.

So stop it already!

As I said - even after the divorce, you are still going to have to deal with her. So, please, either just call her on the P/A stuff or SAY NOTHING. Otherwise, you can look forward to her torment every time you have to say two words to her. She will bait you into fight after fight because she knows how to "WIN" when it comes to you, and nothing in life matters more to a P/A than "WINNING."

NEVER, EVER FORGET THIS.
Mulan

Mulan,

I hate you. God I hate you. Yes after you have said it I wish I did say that. I really really do. God it all makes sense. You see I am a mere white belt. You must be a 100th degree black belt.

She is winning. She absolutely is.

I have to stop thinking like a sane logical person.

All I kept thinking this weekend was don't argue with an illogical person she will drag me down to her level and beat me with experiance. She did.

I did call her bluff though. She threatened to call the police if I kept speaking. Not yelling, not calling names but speaking. Well I kept speaking. She left and came home and said she spoke to an officer and he said if I kept it up she could call and they would respond. I called the police dept. and asked them. They said well is there screaming, nope, hitting, nope anything threatening nope. I said she does have a domestic abuse charge against her and I think she is trying to pay me back. They said they could do nothing except show up. NOTHING. They even said it would kinda look bad on her that she would have the cops show up for this. NOw i want her to call. LOL.

Mulan and Frog,

This is a great wealth of information for the P/A behavior.

I know, Frog, that you never wanted to be a posterboy for P/A behavior and what to do/what not to do, however, the things that you have gone through have helped me to understand what I was facing all of that time in Plan A, and now, in Plan B, I may be faced with the person who wants to 'win' instead of the person that wants to create a new, better R.

It's whacky how crazy my WH made me when we were living together, me trying to recover the unrecoverable. I was TRULY hanging on by a thread there for a while.

Silent,

Yep I am the posterboy. Now I have my sister on my FWW's side.

Forgive and forget. I swear I am about ready to go outside and scream at the top of my lungs.

Geez I can't believe I had a two hour conversation with my sister about my life. The begginning was me telling her not to get involved.

She actually has her theory about it from her expertise. I should forget everything. I should forgive everything and not harbor any resentment of the way things have worked out so far. I am not happy with it but what can I do. She refuses to butt out.

My sister wants us to sit down with a couple that has been through this. I said I would but I probably know what they are going to say. Duh I have read 500 stories here. Um I did it. I confessed, I gave the details that were asked of me. I proved I could be trusted through transparency. I worked hard to win back the love blah blah blah.

Basically the exact opposite of my FWW. Who now is looking for a free pass on pre A, A, and post A wrong doings.

Heck the past is the past. LOL.

Keep screwing up with that as a reasonable way to deal with things.

God I need a beer or something.

Anyway my FWW has a meeting tonight. Doesn't seem like she appreciates me staying home and taking care of the kids. Maybe I should stay out and watch MNF tonight.

You really could stand to do something for yourself, right!

About your sister, I don't care what anyone's qualifications are, either give me the support 'I' need or butt the F___ out!



If your sister is not treating you as a patient (which may go without saying), she has no business implying what you 'should' do NOW. It's too [email]d@mned[/email] late! There is nothing worse than someone standing in front of you in your worst hours saying, "Well, you know what you should do..."

I see no EMPATHY in the above quote. I'm not advocating you holding on to hate or disdain forever, but you aren't in a place right now that it is possible to forget, it's far too fresh. I think forgiveness is something that you have done and can do, but forgetting, well...I'd like to see her propose how you can erase your memory!

My sister is a podiatrist. A foot doctor. LOL.

I told her to butt out. I did. She is going to continue to talk to the FWW.

I said be careful. I have taken years to get her to admit the truth about something very simple. LOL. If you cause harm I will probably not speak to you.

My FWW has her fooled. We discussed the fact that my FWW made amends. I agreed she had then in the future undone that with her subsequent comments. My sister tried to figure out a way that made that OK. Did you make her admit something was wrong she didn't agree with? NO she made the amends. Then contridicted them. Which do I believe? The amends or the contridiction.

Then finally I told her it is a cycle. I told my sister that I asked if my FWW would forgive me for not moving back to NY. This was a week ago. My FWW said she wasn't sure. My sister said see damned if she does damned if she doesn't. Do you want the truth or not. I said yes I do and based on the fact I didn't put a gun to her head to move out here what do I need for her to forgive me. She got perplexed at that.

I said so let me get this straight. We had a good M. She decides to move back to NY, I don't agree right away. M starts to deteriorate. She has an A. She rubs it in my face. She refuses to do anything I ask for recovery. She still resents being "Stuck" here. I feel really safe. DUH.

On that issue she needs to think. As we discuss the A my sister keeps telling me something was wrong before the A. No ****** how about her wanting to move back to NY without regard to our family. Sister says must be something else that made her unhappy in your M. If she was happy in your M then she would have not wanted to move back. Really. Hey when you figure that out let me know.

Oh and on radical honesty. My Sister kept asking why it was important. Well because I wanted to know the truth and she said she would tell me the truth. She doesn't decide what the truth is the truth does. My sister finally grasped my FWW has never been honest. She only admitted to details after I knew them or figured them out. But she wants trust after that.

Heck no. NO way no how. I will not go through life knowing my FWW is perfectly fine doing things and lying about them.

Then I tried to point out how the FWW is about nice things.

Hey she says she likes bath's. I clean the tub, draw a bath, light candles, get music blah blah blah, When FWW says "you don't do nice things for me why should I do them for you?" I bring this up her response "I don't like bath's". Sister tries to say hey that's why you need to know what she likes. I said she loves baths, took one the other day but because it would have been me doing a nice thing she doesn't. Fix that and maybe I can have a nice happy M.

I wouldn't discuss your M or lack there of with your sister anymore. She just doesn't get it. Sounds like she's never felt this kind of betrayal before. It's another circular conversation.

If your FWW is using your sister as a conduit to help her have her way, you'd best just cut all conversation with both of them. I mean, seriously, you're not 15 anymore.

FNM,

I am sorry to read how much things have deteriorated for you.

I think you need some detachment.

Can you think "detach, detach, detach, detach..."...however many times you need to remind yourself until you can actually do it?

I read your stories about getting into arguments and debates with her. I hear you trying to get her to see your point of view.

Its not going to work.

It is keeping you attached. The only person it will drive crazy is you.

Please, change the focus here. The most important person for you, FNM, to look after right now is you. Then your kids. You need to work out what you need and how you can give it to yourself. You are spending so much energy on your FWW. You need that energy for yourself and your kids.

You cannot control your FWW. She can, and may, believe that the sky is green and the sea is red. That is her right. She is allowed to believe anything she wants to believe.

Next time your FWW says ANYTHING that you have a different opinion about, try mildly saying, "Is that what you think?". And thats it. If you feel yourself getting annoyed, leave.

The same goes for your sister. FNM. They can believe what they want. So can you!

Silent,

My stepdad talked to my sister yesterday and told her to butt out. LOL. What has happened is my Sister is trying to convert my FWW. So I think that is why they are allies. I am not sure. Anyway I don't want her involved and hopefully that is what will happen.

Smur,
You are right. It is driving me absolutely nuts. I think what is really driving me up a wall is her "I have changed" attitude. She has changed, and I see that. What she hasn't changed is her part in the dynamic that created the environment our M deteriorated under. IMVHO.

She gets to the edge and tries to take a step back. I am going to admit that after her calling me pathetic, challenging my manhood, etc. I dropped some DJ's back. I did. I took about as much as I could and then I dropped a few back. No where near as much as her though. Not that it was right.

So yesterday I bring up the name calling. She admitted to starting it but then said well you called me worse names then I called you. I almost started laughing. I said you telling me I am not a man is the absolute worse thing you could say to me. Call me an a whole, a mfer whatever you want that is the worst. Do not pretend you do not know that. So you know what to call me to piss me off and I know what to call you.

I am done explaining it too her anymore. We have discussed some of these things ad nauseum. I was really hoping one day she would drop the BS but she hasn't. I mean she lied to me for 3 years and refuses to say that she did, or she has counted the lying as being honest. I don't get it.

Last night I finally said, I can stay married to you but don't ask me to trust you. That is where we are having the problem. Do not ever ask me to go anywhere like NY. I won't agree to it. I look at you and see a person that can do something like that. Then look me in the eye and lie to me. Then after lying for 3 years telling me you have gone over it as many times as you were and you were honest. So if that is you being honest we have problems. LOL.

Then she said the reason she was always hostile was because it was like an interogation. Again I controlled the laughter. I said let me get this straight. Every time we talked about it you asked me "what do you want to know?"
I said the details of your A from start to finish without the gorry details. You said you weren't going to do that but I could ask you questions. So I had to figure it out based on the evidence and question you about it, then you would think about being honest. She said ok. I said so now you say you lied because it was like an interogation but you set it up that way. Now you gave yourself permission to lie to me because of that?

I said that was pretty slick. Of course I lied he was badgering me. But I set up the rules for it to be that way. Then I said the main problem with that statment is I didn't make you lie to me. You CHOSE TO LIE. Independent of what I am doing do you believe lying is OK?

But you continue to talk about this change and you still try to give me reasons for you not living up to your own standards.

So basically what I have decided is just to stop right now. Detach, Try to find an IC to see this week. Then move forward with the D after the new year without telling her.

I mean I think I am worth a million dollars, my FWW thinks I am worth 100 dollars.

I guess the bottom line is that I have not enforced my boundries very well. Now there are issues I won't back down on. I guess if there is a line in the sand and I say if you don't I will get a D. I have really, really thought about it and if she can't bend to stay in the M it isn't worth it.

Now she is backsliding saying she can't remember what happened because it happened so long ago. Who knows anymore. I just am having a hard time staying because I made myself a doormat and she treats me like one. LOL.

(((((((FROG)))))))

Just wanted to let you know that I was thinking about you...

I didn't read all of your post...lack of time...LMAO

Trying to touch base with everyone...

How are you doing TODAY?

Update of this week.

Some pretty interesting stuff.

FWW really got my goat and I decided to take possesion of the new car we got. This has really ticked her off.

She tried to tell me she will resent me for it and I should let her have it. I reverse babbled and told her she kept telling me before we got the car I deserved it not her. She held on to that until we got two blocks from the dealership. I said now I resent being manipulated and the fact you think after saying all the right things turn it around on me.

She actually told my meddling sister the car I gave her, the car I have been using, is unsafe. LOL. News to me. But now I know how she got everyone on her side.

We have been fighting still. LOL nothing new there. We have an issue in the SF dept that really bothers me. Besides a total lack of SF. She stopped doing it for me 2 years before the A, then did it for OM, I asked after the A for her to start she wouldn't then during our last information confirmation session she admitted to doing it for OM. I told her it bothered me and she gave me the same crappy attitude I always get when I open myself up. Duh.

Went to IC yesterday.

It was nice. I felt like I was there for like 2 hours because I got to talk without interuption.

Went over everything. He said I have everyright to be angry. I told him my FWW is PA. He agrees. He also thinks she is narcistic.

There is also a dynamic that she might feel ashamed or whatever from the A. So instead of trying to do the right thing and strive to be better she would rather try to pull me down.

I told him I moved my buttons. He said good.

He asked how MC was going and I told him not good. Told him how she yelled at me in MC. He said what did the MC do. I said he stopped her but then the session went off track and it seems like she dictates what we are allowed to discuss. Usually what I have done wrong to her.

Went over the arrest thing too. He actually said something I never thought about. When I threatened to throw out her clothes. He asked if it was only the clothes. I said yes. He said well the represented her total lack of respect for you and your feelings. Wow. Now I feel better about that.

He looked through his notes and said didn't she complain that you called her names etc. I said yes. He shook his head.

He basically told me to hang in there. He actually said I am ripe for an A.

I also told him how my FWW asked me to be nice. I told him I couldn't because when I do nice things for her she doesn't see them and if she does she then says she didn't like them so they didn't count.

He said it seems like she wants to sabotage you. Yep.

So now I feel good. Got a trained professional telling me, I am well spoken, humorous, dynamic, outgoing and pretty well adjusted.

There was more but it just really made me feel good.

I don't think he see's us having much hope.

Wow for 25 bucks an hour that aint bad. LOL.

Great! Keep your cool and keep working on yourself.

Hey Frog,

You sound pretty good! It really is nice to have someone outside of the mess, with an objective mind, tell you that you are solid. Keep on keepin' on!

Hi there FNM,

I'm very happy to hear that you are doing something so positive for yourself by going to the IC. IC really, really helped me. Wow, only $25? Go, go every week, as much as you can! Also, you probably already investigated this but if not, Al anon is a really useful resource. Sometimes the affirmation of a whole group is even nicer than that of one person!

Now that you have your IC, us here on MB, your kids, your friends, and no doubt your colleagues... all telling you what a great job you are doing as a parent, as a person who does his best under really difficult circumstances, as an H... maybe it will be clearer to you that you don't need to convince your FWW of this. If she can't see it, nothing you can say or do will show her. Trying to make her see it is impossible. You can't control that. Its just her skewed filter. So... detach!

Please, keep respecting yourself and looking after yourself and keep us updated!!