Thank you everyone.

I have a really hard time with the footsies, hugging, etc. because every time I even mention physical contact, she gets this disgusted look on her face. I really think that its 90% of our problem.

Dinner went ok. We got in a little car accident on the way there... rear ended... so the night started off crappy. We talked a little about things. I wish it wasn't the elephant in the room, but it is.

On our way home I said to her that she probably is having trouble embracing my changes because if she does she loses the justification to do what she did. She stayed silent.

After we got home, I got ready for bed and noticed that my ear hair was getting a bit long... not that long... but long enough that I noticed it. I took out my electric clippers and trimmed it. Why is this significant? The wife came in and asked what I was doing. It told her and she just mumbled "something else I've always wanted you to do". As I was walking by I joked about something and she tryed to pinch my butt! Don't know if that's significant or not...

I guess it was a good night. I felt mentally exhausted over the whole thing... like I was saying, I was having a crappy day before the evening started.

Oh, and hurtingless... I did that calorie boos thing yesterday. Weird! I probably had almost DOUBLE my normal calories for the day... in fact, I KNOW I had more than double!

As a result... I lost 0.5 pounds. Go figure! Plus its easy for me to jump back on the plan and not miss a beat.

Next goal to be posted on October 31. See other thread.

Oh, and one more thing... she says that the changes I'm making are fake, and that it's not the real me. When I tell her that I know I'll be ok without her, but my first choice is to save the marriage, she says she doesn't believe me and that it's just a front to look strong.

I hate it when she says these things, mostly because it's not the way I really am and the way I really feel.

Only time will tell...

Walt,

The fact that you are still together at the end of the day is progress. I know it sounds stupid but think about it like that.

She is resisting change in you. Not just because of the justifications she made. Maybe because she is resistent to change as well.

Geez look at all these hard changes he is making am I going to have to change too? Could be part of it.

I mean I know that Walt has told me he doesn't like this or that and I never felt like I needed to change because he wasn't. Now he is do I now have too as well.

It might be small things you have asked for but it is a possibility.

I told my FWW we have both changed from the day we first met. We change every day. Why not try to change for the better for the two of us.

I also told her that I love you. You don't need to do as much to keep me as you would to try to win someone new.

Ok, another interesting weekend. We went out on Friday night and got in a little car accident on the way there. Got rear ended on an exit ramp. No injuries, just a nuisance now with minor damage. Dinner was ok, with very little conversation other than the same old stuff. She again told me that she doesn't really believe that I find myself to be ok no matter what happens. Whatever...

Then on Saturday we went to my son's soccer game. Saw people I hadn't seen in a while who barely recognized me! I love Plan A weight loss. Anyway, another couple asked us to dinner that night. Someone I do some work for on the side. We had a fun time. I asked for a suggestion of what to wear. She said she didn't care, then told me what she'd like me to wear. She asked my opinion about her outfit, etc.

Oh, earlier in the day the talk went to divorce. I told her that I don't want to talk about it right now. That I can't put my soul into saving this marriage and talk about details of a divorce at the same time. We ended up talking and she asked me if I really wanted to be with her. She said "forget about money, the kids, everything else... just you and me. Am I the person you really want to be with?"

I told her that I laid in our bed asking myself the same question on many almost sleepless nights... I told her that after giving it so much thought that YES, she is the person I want to be with. She said "how can you feel that way after what I've done?" I told her that I want the chance to be the husband she always wanted and the husband that I desparately wanted to be. I started to cry and turned away because I didn't want her to see the weakness I felt. I told her that I was sorry she felt she had to leave our marriage to find what she was looking for. I told her that I loved her, forgive her, and want a fresh start. I stopped and let it go. Then I went outside and mowed the lawn.

Dinner was fun, then when we're leaving she commented that she did her "wifely duties". I said that I had fun and she seemed to have fun too. I said that we should go out with others more often, and left it at that.

Today I brought some fishing gear over a friends house. I told her that I was lending things to a new guy going on my normal annual trip (that I won't be going on this year, and probably never again... my choice). She said "you know, you can go if you want. Don't you really want to go? Won't you miss it?" I told her, no, I choose to spend time with my family. I don't want to be away if I don't have to be. That if I go away, I want it to be with my family. She said "it only took fifteen years and three affairs". I told her that it didn't take the affairs, but it did take the thought of losing you to make me realize alot of things. I stopped talking, even though I wanted to keep going.

Later that day I was doing some yard work. Cleaning the gutter in front of our house along the curb. I was using the electric blower when it shut off. My wife unplugged it and said she needed my help. I went in and she had spilled hair removal wax all over the floor. She was swinging her arms and there was a 12' or so stream of it on the hard wood floor. I started to scrape some of it up. She was very upset with what she did. She said "why don't you react like you usually do?" I told her that it was a mistake, and I don't like being angry. She said "what will it take to get you angry at me these days?" I said "I don't know, maybe you should consider giving me a little credit sometimes." She said "all this would have made a difference three years ago (pre-affairs), but now..." she didn't finish. I didn't ask her to, because it became obvious to me the struggle going on inside her.

We all went to church and the sermon was again directed at our situation. They talked about divorce and love and harm to the children and how God wants us to feel... about the importance of love and the acts that go along with it.

I was actually choked up and could only imagine what my wife was thinking.

She used to use the term "meant to be" alot. Like we're "not meant to be". So I texted her saying "I guess it's meant to be." with a smiley face at the end.

I chose for the remainder of the day to smile at her, be cheerful, etc. I know I'll have bad days, but I'll do my best to get through them. I feel like there's progress being made, and I'm doing my best to exercise "no expectations" for my actions. It's very liberating!

I choose to be the lighthouse. I think she's catching a glimpse of it...

I love my wife.

Just got out of counseling. Had a meltdown afterward. The wife saying that she doesn't feel ANYTHING toward me. Saying that now that I'm doing things she likes (and I like doing) I'm acting like a pathetic push-over, but if I act like an a-hole, she says "see, this is what I'm talking about".

Well, I lost it on the way to work after counseling. I called her and dropped DJ's like bombs... how can I keep doing this and she says she doesn't feel anything for me and never will.

I told her fine, you want a D... you got one.

I'm trying to put off calling my lawyer until I calm down. There's only so much a person can take. She want's a confident a--hole... well, I'm really good at that too.

Yes, I'm PO'd and tired...

Walt, Walt, Walt!

Sometimes, we do the things that the WS want the BS to do at the worst possible time.

She has been baiting you the past couple of days. "Wax over 12'?", Being lousy at the MC session? What does it take to get you mad? Well, she found where your new threshold is.

Her justifications for her A have just been validated. You were making progress, but you just have taken about three steps back. You are not making changes, you are just going thru the motions until she decides to leave.

First, let her file the D papers, or continue the process. They don't, because they like the comfortable spot they are in. It should always be the WS responsibility unless the BS has gotten to the complete end of the rope.

Second, Just go back to the Plan A process. You were making progress. You can continue doing it. If you get a chance, explain that you are frustrated and her lack of desire to fight for the M makes you explode occasionally.

Walt, I just want to echo LG's comments from a FWW's point of view.

I've been following your posts because you remind me of my husband (both of you are doing an outstanding Plan A).

This weekend, I asked my husband why he doesn't get mad at me? He says he loves me and wants to save our marriage. I baited him with some pretty nasty lovebusters, and he stayed calm and true. It really pissed me off!!

He used to have a horrible temper, and I actually enjoyed it because it made me the long-suffering wife and provided an excuse for my EA. Now that he has changed, I have to look at myself and see the awful person underneath. He removed my excuse. He's an amazing guy and now HE'S long-suffering. He's throwing me off-balance, in a good way.

Your wife may be feeling as I do. She wants her excuse back, and she's mad at you for removing it. She doesn't want to face her choices. Her anger at you actually may be a good sign that she's thinking with more clarity.

Today you didn't fall off the Plan A wagon- you had a bad day. You're human! Calm down and keep going as the lighthouse. You really are making progress. Try to find an outlet for your frustration that doesn't involve her.

Do NOT file for divorce. Make her do it. My bet is that she won't.

Good luck Walt.

walt i agree. look back on your post. YOU ARE CHANGING not only before your WW eyes but OUR EYES as well.

BE STILL!!!

breathe..................calm down.

dont evr justify her guilt with DJ or Aoutburst. Leave her alone.For now.

I am in the same place right now and i have to tell you, it will get better. it will.

just remember your kids and that you are also fighting for their future as well.

Love yourself Walt....then love her.

Its win win for you.........she has so much to loose.

remember that.

K?

Thanks. I'm not going to call my atty, especially while I'm feeling this emotional... however, I AM going to stand up for myself more than I have been. There's a delicate balance between Plan A and doormat in alot of cases.

I'm still finding that balance.

I shredded her on the phone... I mean I shredded her deep into her soul. I hate to admit that if felt great to get it off my chest a bit.

I'll continue Plan A, however, I WILL NOT BE A DOORMAT in any way shape or form.

Maybe I'm finally understanding Plan A...

Walt,

Never ever threaten a D or talk about a D.

I posted this quote before and I think it fits what you are going through.

"The way to love anything is to realize that it might be lost."

You have had this realization. I sent this quote to my FWW.

So when I say don't use the word D don't. During one of our last arguments which don't occur much anymore she told me I should D her. I said I will not D you. Not today, not tomorrow, not ever. She told me fine she would do it then because I am not man enough. I walked into the kitchen took out the yellow pages and opened it to D attorneys. I handed her the phone and I said there you go all you have to do now is pick one and dial.

I said you started the process the least you can do is finish it. I will not fight to keep you any longer. I don't feel like I should have to fight you at all. If you wanted to be with me you wouldn't be fighting me you would be fighting with me.

Now like I have told you before, it is possible your FWW is trying to sabotoge you and your progress. My FWW basically admitted it to me and the MC. She knew the changes were not real because sure enough every month and a half I would have a blow up just like the one you had.

Well my FWW did almost exactly what yours is doing and sure enough after a while I had a "NORMAL HUMAN REACTION" that proved I didn't change. Why does that keep happening. For me there are different reasons then for you so find out what it is and defuse it.

Next thing. When my FWW did this like I said I reacted like you. Well now I don't. What I do is say the same words over and over in my head. Do not escalate!!! I know what she wants and I refuse to give it to her. She wants to prove I haven't changed and guess what I am the only one that can prove I have. So now I absorb it and wait. Then I simply tell her how I felt in I statments. If it starts escalating I stop again. It may take days to tell her how I felt without dropping the bombs but that is the change I needed to make for MYSELF.

Thanks. That's exactly what I'm going to do. I kind of started that in counseling today. I asked her why she just didn't pull the trigger already. She had a bunch of reasons including the kids, family and friend relationships, etc... but let's face it, if she really wanted a D, then she would have filed already.

I've learned that a big part of Plan A is leaving the cage door open. In all reality, I can't make her do anything or not do anything, so I won't even try. I won't bring up D again, unless she does. If she does, I'll tell her that when she gets the ball rolling, to let me know.

Walt,

Good for you. The hardest thing I have had to do is let the justifications roll off of my back.

There is no justification for an A. Hearing them and then hearing my FWW say to me she isn't sure she wants to stay hurts.

I mean how much does it hurt to know my FWW had an A but I want to try but I didn't do something and she isn't willing to try.

Hard to forgive that.

Then when she says oh it only took x amount of years and three A's for you to change. You can say no you didn't have to have the A's there were different ways you could have gotten my attention. You could have filed for a D back then or left me and it probably would have had the same effect.

But you know have my attention and I regret what I did and didn't do. Please see me for who I am now because I want to see you for who you are now. I am sure you wouldn't want me to hold your A's over your head forever and I won't can you please try not to hold stuff from the past over mine? or something like that.

That might work, but she would just say that she doesn't feel attracted to me, or she would say "then why don't you divorce me" or something like that. She's just not comfortable going through the process I think... whatever. Either way, I feel like I moved to the next level of Plan A today. Not going back. Not going to be a pushover.

I'm actually going to see a mediator of my own to get some information to be a few steps ahead should she pull the trigger, I'm ready and know what to expect.

My wife is the ultimate cake eater. She's safe where she is, but wants out at the same time. 90% of the issue is sexual attraction. It's a big thing to both of us of course, but the difference is, you need to work on it for it to get better. My wife usually gets her way and having to work at this is not normal to her.

TOO F'in BAD!

Same here. LOL.

Knowledge is power though. I saw an attorney pretty early on. I actually went to two because I didn't really believe the first one on the child custody thing. Boy was I wrong the first one was right. LOL. They both said I could get custody of the children and they both recommended that I seek full custody with supervised visits for the FWW. Unless of course I was lying to them. Which I wasn't.

A D became a lot less scary after that.

That's when I reached in my pocket and found some round things in there. I had a hole in my pocket. LOL.

Well she can keep talking about sexual attraction but I have seen the pictures. She has nothing to be unhappy about now. You look better then you did when you married her.

Be patient with her. She needs to see the changes and she needs time to realize they are lifetime changes.

Good work.

Just curious, how were you able to get full custody? Was she an alcoholic, drug abuser, etc?

Also, what state are you in?

Just a follow-up. Things generally came to a head for me yesterday. Even though I feel stronger about myself every day, I feel like it may not even be worth it at this point. Yes, I am on an emotional roller coaster ride and things are more complicated considering the house we bought last year and now have to sell before things get going toward divorce.

My energy toward this cause is dwindling. I appreciate the support and cheers to go on even when you're feeling down, but at some point, its just not worth it anymore. The silver lining, however, is evident and real.

Divorce seems like such a pain in the butt, however, only because I'm familiar with this life and routine.

Got alot to consider...

I'm more calm today, but less positive about the outcome of a "happy marriage" with my wife. I just feel like I care less about it today than any day during this roller coaster ride.

This sucks.

Ok, folks.

I called the wife and asked her to call me when she had time. She was on the road to see an attorney for a free consult to ask some questions, etc. She said she had time right now.

I told her that I just want to do what's best for the kids. We need to sell our second home first before we can do anything. Also, if we sell our primary home, we'd lose a ton of money and the kids wouldn't benefit from it at all.

My parents are willing to move in and finish off the basement as an apartment. I told her that I'll check on all the codes, etc. and make sure it's legal. This way, I can stay at the house with the kids. I told her that I don't think 50/50 time split between us is best for the kids. She agreed. (Her tone is completely different when my tone isn't threatening.) I said that I think 5 nights every two weeks is good for the kids. A four night weekend and one other floating night.

I said that I may need a little bit of help and time to get things in place, but I don't want her to be unable to survive on her own. We'll go by the charts for child support, and if it's too much for her to be able to function, then we'll talk about a lesser amount. I told her that we'll split other expenses as they come up like college, orthodontics, etc. The kids would still be under my insurance.

I told her to have a good consult and I'll talk to her later. She said ok and goodbye in a very quiet, meek voice.

The cage door is open. I know many of you will not agree with me, but this is probably the only way to see if there's a chance at this working out... quite frankly, I'm not optomistic and really don't even know if I want it to anymore. My daughter is actually rooting for divorce. Now THAT's pathetic.

She told me in the past, up to recently, that she doesn't believe I feel "OK" with either option. I think I've just proven her otherwise.

I'm still Plan Aing of course, but for me... just me. I feel a HUGE weight lifted off of my shoulders. Almost to the point of nausea... you know that feeling? Like after taking a big test you've prepared for for weeks.

By this approach, I am not a defeated man at all... I am a new man with so many possibilities for the future.

I will post with interesting responses... but I don't expect to have much to say.

It's a sad day, but as with any ending... it yields a new beginning.

Thank you all for your support through this. You have been a blessing.

There were three things. We are not divorced though.
1. Alcholic.
2. Her A.
3. Domestic abuse and some other documented incidents of violence on her part.

#2 was the dicey part because the A would not be taken into account unless "the children were directly hurt or embarassed by the situation." The fact that the A in itself defines that IMVHO that is not the case. The fact she took them out on dates did not even do this. LOL. However my FWW was staying at my Aunts house and the A took place with my Aunts tenant. One night my FWW was going out with OM and my Aunt told her she wouldn't watch our kids while she was cheating on her nephew. This escalated into a fist fight between my FWW and my Aunt that my children witnessed. My OS said "I don't want another daddy and mommy is not being fair to daddy." After that she still went out with OM with my kids. So that fit the definition in my state. Taking the kids out didn't even do that. Unbeleivable.

So under CA state law. If domestic abuse is reported and she is arrested which she was. CS would be awarded to the victim(me). It was a minor incident etc so it wouldn't have meant protective custody but throw in the alcholism and the pain and embarassment I was in the catbird seat.

On the divorce thing. It isn't over until they rubber stamp the papers. In my state in an uncontested D they make you wait 6 months. All is agreed on and then you wait 6 monhts until it is official.

Now the whole child support issue. Do not assume you will get anything from her for support. Go to google and type in child support calculator for your state. This is what the courts use to determine Child Support.

If I got 80 percent custody, you won't beleive this, I STILL PAID MY FWW CHILD SUPPORT. Yes I have a majority of custody and I still paid her!!!!!

The formula is your income, her income, amount of children and percentage of physical custody. So if you make more then her the you probably will pay. At 80 percent custody I think I would have paid her $151 a month. LOL. To this day I can't figure that one out.

Finally this might be the reality check your W needs. You see it is easy to talk about wanting to start over but when the facts are laid out to you then it starts to become a reality. I could do fine without Walt. Except for paying the bills, and watching the kids and.......

The she may look at all you do once she is presented with what she has to do and start appreciating you a little more.

Good luck and hold your head up. You are personally doing great and the only person you have control over is yourself.

Thanks for the insight... makes my situation look like a walk in the park.

I'm can almost count on my wife changing her mind. I would be willing to bet on it. But it may be too late. She wasn't the best mom before all this, so it makes me wonder if this is a blessing in disguise.

Funny thing is, she's ALWAYS made more money than me. I would have about 65% custody of the kids. Since we both make about the same, we'll see what that gets me, but she's always made just a little more than me...except for this year!!!

Not trying to make this a battle at all. I just want what's best for the kids. Not looking to separate her from seeing the kids at all.

My house is always so peaceful when she's working at night. I'll have that peace EVERY NIGHT!

Am I sad? Very...
Desparate for it to work? Hardly...
Expecting it to work? No...

The lack of remorse has taken alot of the wind out of my sails.

I know she'll regret it someday... someday when she's no longer my problem. I've protected her from herself long enough.

Have a great day.