While I've stopped the official dating of my ex GF of 14 months, we continue to speak by phone every day and/or email. She came down for my oldest son's birthday & brought a lovely cake, etc.

We had a wonderful time together & talked a good deal. We both told each other we do love each other.

I've finally got my dilemma condensed down into simpler terms. Here it is - (you'll recall our deal breaker is that she wants kids at 39 yrs of age, has had none, and I don't really want more):

1. I'm 48 and struggle greatly to see myself as a 60 year old man with a 10 year old kid...70 year old with a kid just into college...my kid probably never being able to have their kids know their grandfather, etc. Besides the fact that I really would be OK to not have more kids, I ask myself what is fair to the kid about having a father as old as I would be?

Also, at 48, I also would rather concentrate my financial resources on preparing for retirement & enjoying the later years of my life vs paying still more school bills & upkeep of even more family members well into my retirement years.

2. On the other hand...I also struggle with this. If I really truly love this woman, then I will want to help her reach her major life dreams and goals...even if it means laying aside some of my own desires in the process. Marriage is about compromise to reach for all the goals/dreams you both can achieve together. The ultimate POJA... So how much do I really love this woman? Do I love her enough to help her reach her major life goal of having a family?

I will admit I do have a very difficult time seeing myself without her. I know I can. But "we" are highly compatible. Folks around us who know us both say that repeatedly.

Truly torn asunder here.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

No no and no!
You do NOT have a child to help anyone else's goal, unless it's your goal too.

I wonder though, can you really&truly love someone and not want a child with them?
Or it's just that you are highly compatible...

I'm 48, a guy, and I desparately want more children.

I wish I had met her before you did. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Still, I'm glad to hear that there are women like that out there.

-AD
ps:B2M, you sure are bossy! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Why do you say that please?

First of all, I realize now that I'm guilty of .. er.. namecalling.

I owe you an appology.

But, since you ask...


Sounds like a command to me.
Bosses give commands.

-AD

But what do you say about all of those reasons like is it fair to the child? What about retirement funds? Financial obligations late into retirement? Not likely to be an available grandfather to their kids? Etc?

See, having kids isn't just for US. It's also about fairness to them! Folks have kids like it's a commodity to keep ourselves happy, fulfilled, occuppied, etc.

It's an ENORMOUS obligation/responsibility/energy & commitment.

I'm curious. Why do you so desparately want more kids?

I would say it is too hard when you are not on the same page about having children. Is she fine with one? What if she wants her child to have a sibling? (which she could potentially not know until she has the first) What if she has difficulty getting pregnant?

Fair to the child - well again, you don't know the future - you may not be grandfather to you older kids' kids either. None of us know the amount of time we have. Financially, well, if it is something you want, it'll work out.

I really get the feeling though, that you are done, so these other issues (finances, etc.) would be tough and build resentment if you weren't totally ok with having another. ???

Anyway, I thought I was done with having them as my XH had the big V when my youngest was a year old. After D, I thought to myself, I would have another if I found the right guy!

B2M, I do think you can be deeply in love and not want a another child. While it would be wonderful to create something with the one you love, a child is a huge sacrifice. When children already exist, they have to be considered in the equation.

I personally can't have more children. And I'm glad. I can't imagine starting over again with feedings and diapers.

High Flight, children are not like getting an advanced degree or becoming a deacon in the church. I think you know that in your gut. In having a child with her, you aren't making a one time sacrifice. You are dramatically changing your life, as you know. If you want another child, that's great. But, if you don't.... Well, I can see resentment building up.

POJA means no sacrifice. Unfortunately, this is an issue that can't be POJA'd.

Eeek, this is illogical. It's like saying "if I truly love someone, shouldn't I want to cut off my nose if she wants me to?".

Even "for love", we don't do things we don't want to do. Having a child is not like getting a tattoo or getting into a new hobby - it's a life altering and permanent decision, with huge and significant consequences. Of course, you know that.

You already have kids, and it's clear you don't want more. End of story. Do NOT have kids to please someone else - it's not fair to you, to the GF, and to the kids.

Actually, I think it's a huge sign of maturity to be able to state that you have boundaries - and if not wanting to have kids is one of them, then you should not change your boundary just because you love someone.

AGG

Thank you for feedback, AD.
And no, you don't need an apology; You were just sincere and I appreciate that.

I do have some discrepancies between me sounding harsh and my too soft heart. And I always have troubles with people they do not know me (enough).
And for 'bossy', I am the boss, but just and only to myself, '(self)demanding' included.

What I really meant is quite close to what AGG said.

In addition, children have all rights to be brought to this world from OWN wish of their parent(s).
Anything less is not good for - the child.

However, I might owe an apology to High Flight.
I just see all wrong reasons people have the children, and later on, the childrean are who suffer the most. And that's why I reacted with 'No'. (Well, an 'overprotective mother' spoke this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).
High Flight, I hope I didn't hurt You, for that would never be my intention.

GG, I understand, and you are right.
Each of us have different 'definition' of love, different capabilities of loving, and different ways of showing it.
What I said it's just me.
There is no more beautiful bond between a woman and a man than to have a child together.
For me.
And I accept and appreciate other people do not think the same, as in many other cases that we have different opinions...

Best regards to all of you

I keep reminding myself that this is HighFlight's thread.

HF,

Only you know your goals in life - your life plan.

I have never heard anyone say "I wish I had not had my youngest child."

Life is a struggle. We struggle, and like the salmon swimming upstream, we die. But, to bring forth new life before death is a victory.

I am willing to die for my child, and also to live for my child.


To those who say it is "unfair" to bring a child into the world in such-and-such a circumstance, I say that I disagree. It seems far more "unfair" to deny the child the opportunity to even exist. My father was 40 when I was born. He did not live to see my daughter's birth.

-AD

Well, of course, no one says they wish they didn't have the youngest child. But look at all the absentee parents...

Some people want lots of children and that's wonderful. Others don't want any, and that's okay too.

I think there's a certain point in one's life when one says "I've moved beyond the procreating stage of my life." Sometimes that's not until menopause!

However, if one is beyond that point, going back because someone asked you to is likely to create resentment.

How is HF going to feel when his wife pokes him to wake up and feed the baby? You want to tell me he's not going to feel like saying "HEY, you wanted this, you feed him/her!" Remember, too, it often takes fathers a while longer to bond than it does mothers. That's just so much work and sacrifice for a baby. It's worth it if that's what you want. I just see it bringing HUGE amounts of resentment if it's what your spouse/SO wants and you don't.

HF, I'm a little confused here......

Isn't this the woman that has all but ignored your own teenage boys?? That has walked right by them and not even offered them a greeting??

What about all the other issues you brought up that made you all seem incompatible....careers etc?

You should only have children w/ her b/c YOU want a child also and to me, it sure doesn't sound like you do.

Hey Gang!! Just a short note before bed. I flew about 1800 miles today, & am in Duluth, MN tonight dog tired. So I'll get a chance maybe tomorrow night after flights to get back to these posts.

THANKS to all for your thoughts.

ZZZzzzzz
High Flight

I like the youngest child concept.

And in a bizarre turn of events today:
On CNN they announced today that Anna Nicole Smith's 20 year old son suddenly died, while he was with his mother in the Bahamas for the birth of her new daughter. Talk about mixing grief and joy.

AGG - With all due respect & not trying to be argumentative, but I found your counter illustration illogical, not my idea of trying to help the one you love meet their profound needs.

And I disagree with you ... we all DO DO THINGS we don't want to because of love. Do you think your Mom or Dad really wanted to get up & clean your dirty diaper at 2 AM for anything less than love?

Actually, I think it's a huge sign of immaturity to line up immovable "boundaries" when it comes to matters of the heart. Matters of morality & values? YES! Immovable. Not matters of the heart, goals, or matters of life's goodness.

So, I'm thinking we don't see these things the same at all.

I do agree with you that I don't really want more kids. So I have to think this thing through VERY carefully. Yes, I have to be honest with myself & her. And I have been.

Take care,
High Flight

Yes it is. There have been further discussions & developments ref the boys. She has some basis for her ideas too. We talked about this. She has also become more friendly with them & they all care about each other.

It's not easy joining teenagers lives as a GF/BF...

Career thing is somewhat unresolved. But it's not the dealbreaker it once was based on our discussions. Just lots of work.

And, I'm still wrestling with the last statement.

I know of many men who had children later in life with second (usually much younger) wives, and you-wanted-it-you-take-care-of-it is pretty much the arrangement. The dad pays the bills and plays with the kids when the mood strikes, but he will NOT do all the dirty work the way he did with his first family.

As long as the wife knows that going in and understands that that's the price she pays for getting her baby, it works well enough for them. Who knows whether it works for the kid.

I've seen the "you wanted it you take care of it". In this case the dad was in his 50's mom in her thirties. He had grown children already and wanted nothing to do with taking care of another child.

V.

I agree with HF that there are a lot of compromises and doing things for the betterment of the couple.

However, I think that very major life choices you should be in agreement with -- without one having to completely reverse their position to accomodate the other.

In the process of developing the relationship, there has to be some dealbreakers that mean that person is not the one.
Otherwise you are saying we could be compatible with absolutely ANYONE. Its just simply a matter of choosing to, and all your actions support that choice.

I think you need to find a person who is in alignment with your most important life choices -- and then work from there.