If you call the women's abuse hotline n your area, you may find that his game playing is a cruel ploy that must be stopped. Not by you alone.

It is better he get help. He is one sick puppy. Send in help and step aside, let them do their stuff.

L.

Wow. some crazy things in your life.
and some crazy things by your husband now, especially.

yet I hear deep regret from you. you still love him: you just dont want to get hurt any more. (sounds reasonable! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )
and it sounds like in some crazy way, he still loves you. otherwise, he wouldnt be trying to manipulate you.

The big question from me:
Just how God-fearing are you? really, truely, in your heart?
you say that "I don't want a R w/someone who isn't committed to God. "

how committed to Him are YOU?

That may be true. We are not perfect creatures, unfortunately. we are not capable of divine forgiveness.
That being said....

Why do you want a divorce?
really?

you say, "I want to move forward and move on".

Move on, to what?

"Plus, I've wasted way too much attorney money already w/nothing to show for it. "

Money, would be a very non-godly reason to end your marriage.
I'm not saying there arent other reasons. but that would be a bad reason.


What do you want to "move on" to?
If your husband actually moved off to who-knows-where, and didnt talk to you... would you have any further reason to file a divorce?

L2S,
Life really is too short. Don't spin your wheels where you are. You know the answer to your own question. His threats are doing exactly what he means for them to do - force you to question your own judgement, keep you under his control, and keep him in a position of power over you.

Suicide is very complicated, and the threat of it is paralyzing, to be sure. The advice to call the police is very good. On the next instance of his threatening suicide, call his parents, the police, and every person you know who might care about him. Do that every time, but don't let his threats change your decisions. His suicidal threats are much more complicated than the superficial link to your decision to leave him, do you see that? Your average person does not threaten suicide when they don't get their way. Average people don't threaten suicide to control the behavior of their spouses or others. They also do not pour fake blood around, plant guns, run around the place with guns avoiding the police, or make threats and play games like this. Your husband needs therapy, and the only way he will be led to that needed intervention is through the use of public authorities who tire of being called over and over again because he is running around with a loaded gun threatening his own life. Real or not, these suicidal threats are a thin veil covering underlying psychological problems that need to be addressed. Ultimately, if you call the police often enough, a judge or his parents, or may he himself, will force him into treatment, which is where he belongs - because let's face the truth, L2S, no one wants him to kill himself, even HE doesn't want that. He just doesn't want to have to admit that he wants help either. Until something or someone more dramatic than he is brings him to the table, the games will continue.

Sounds like the voice of experience? Hmmm. Could be I have been around that block myself.

Get unstuck, and don't look back. The road behind you was rocky and you know what it looks like. Look ahead, take your beautiful daughter on the paved one before you. Don't be afraid. You are strong. After all, look at the boulders you had to move to get to where you are.

If I were you, I'd spread my wings and fly.


SB

L2S,
go back and read your posts as if you were reading someone else's posts- what would you tell them?

Techie,
You said:
yet I hear deep regret from you. you still love him: you just dont want to get hurt any more. (sounds reasonable! )
and it sounds like in some crazy way, he still loves you. otherwise, he wouldnt be trying to manipulate you.

I do still love him. I am still attracted to him. I believe in some way he may still love me. But, and this is a BIG but, the R that we now have and that we have had for years is not healthy for either one of us.
You said:
The big question from me:
Just how God-fearing are you? really, truely, in your heart?
you say that "I don't want a R w/someone who isn't committed to God. "

how committed to Him are YOU?
I don’t think any of us could truly say that we are as committed as we should or could be to God. I have many areas in my life that I need to work on especially when it comes to me lying. In God’s eyes, my lies are no better than his adultery. That is my belief. With God there are no degrees of sin; sin is sin.
But I do want to serve God w/my husband. I want to be in church together, read the Bible together, pray together, live as Christians together. Again, this means different things to different people.
You said:
Why do you want a divorce?
really?

you say, "I want to move forward and move on".

Move on, to what?

"Plus, I've wasted way too much attorney money already w/nothing to show for it. "

Money, would be a very non-godly reason to end your marriage.
I'm not saying there arent other reasons. but that would be a bad reason.


What do you want to "move on" to?
If your husband actually moved off to who-knows-where, and didnt talk to you... would you have any further reason to file a divorce?

I don’t WANT a divorce. I am just of the opinion, after having lived this life for more than nine years, that this is the best decision for both of us. What do I want to move on to? A life of peace, absent of all the drama that IS my life right now. I am tired. My H is tired. I have lied to him incessantly. He has lied to me incessantly. He has had multiple affairs. He has abused me verbally and physically and the physical part slowly worsens.
The money? It’s not an issue of money. What I am saying is that I have now spent more than $2,000 and the papers have not even been filed yet. For me, that’s a lot of money. I’m not saying that I want to end it because I see not divorcing as a waste of the money already spent. I AM saying that I don’t want to keep going to the attorney and having the agreement changed and him still not agreeing.

If my husband moved away and never talked to me again, yes, I would still want a divorce. I see no sense in being in limbo for the rest of my life. I DO want to be married. I am still in favor of marriage. I don’t want to be alone the rest of my life. I know there are people who separate and stay that way for many, many years if not for the rest of their lives. I can’t see myself doing that. Not being married but not being divorced has been my life for the last 2.5 years. I really don’t see the point in that lifestyle.

Schoolbus:
Actually, he is now threatening suicide again. He has packed clothes, guns, made a few company arrangements and has gone to the northern part of our state for a few days. He is telling me that his intent is to end it all. I don’t want to take his threat lightly but I really don’t know what to do. Yesterday, we got into an argument. Nothing new. The argument turned nasty and he slapped me. That has never happened before. He told me to call the police; I did not. He told me later that he called and told them what happened and that they were supposed to call me; I don’t believe that.

He told me goodbye last night. He went to the OW’s house to tell her goodbye. He packed today (he’s been saying for about two weeks now that he is going to leave and never come back – meaning suicide) and left town this afternoon. He is still calling me and still talking. I know where he is right now or at least where he told me he is. He tells me that he has made arrangements for many things but I don’t believe him.

I do not believe that he will commit suicide. I’ve been told by many people and I’ve heard it said many times that someone who is truly intent on suicide just does it; they don’t leave bread crumbs. They don’t continually threaten. This is probably the 5th serious time and about the 10th time that he has mentioned it.

As for notifying family, friends, his family couldn’t care less. They are incredibly dysfunctional (as are we!!). He has 6 brothers and sisters all of whom, except for two, have been married and divorced multiple times, multiple affairs, etc. His children couldn’t care less unless it meant that he wouldn’t be able to bail them out when they need it. He has one close male friend who is a good man and who does love him. I thought about calling him tomorrow but, if he tells my H that I called, it will make it worse for me I think. He was there when he talked about it the first time and the police were called last summer.



Moveforward,
L2S,
go back and read your posts as if you were reading someone else's posts- what would you tell them?

Someone posed this very question to me in terms of what would I tell my daughter to do if she were in this situation.
My answer: leave him, divorce him, move on with your life, never look back except to remind yourself of the mistakes to never make again.

He keeps telling me that the only way he can make it up to me for the way he has treated me is monetarily. What he means by this is me getting life insurance, the house, everything. Nothing can make up for what we've put each other through.

I wish someone could tell me what he hopes to gain by threatening suicide. He has to come back home and face what he has done. He was very embarrassed the first time he did this. He didn't think that anyone would call the police. Maybe I will call his friend tomorrow. I would like to know what he has told him about where he's going/what he's doing. I'm almost tempted to call the OW and ask her what he told her but the thought of talking to her sickens me. I did talk to her the last major time he did this; about 5 months ago (she called his cell phone nad I answered - a part of his staging was to leave me notes about the company and the cell phone so I could manage the business). At that time she told me that he set her up by trying to use her to make me jealous.

Oh well, thoughts, suggestions, opinions and prayers are very welcome.

Thanks all.

YOUR husband, now? or, "some generic man in the future who holds that title"?

Wanting to serve God with "a" husband. is non-biblical. You should seek to serve God, however he wishes you to serve him, not in the preconceived way you THINK you "should"...

perhaps you are confusing "I want to serve God"(noble), with "I want to have a functional, supportive, loving husband"(selfish).
That being said... later on, you do come out more straightforward with that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> So that's good that you recognize that. and I dont think it's wrong to want that.

I can understand that. completely.

SO here's the thing. Maybe your husband is capable of change. maybe he's not.

Divorcing him now, may cut off the chance for change.
(or, it may be a catalyst. tough to tell. but it has to be said).

My point being... If he is removing himself from your vicinity, then you will be spared the direct bad behaviour.


Here's my suggestion, as a totally non-professional, but caring Christian, for you:

You might consider writing him a letter similar to a plan B letter, telling him all the things that make him unlivable with. include the suicide threats, and ALL his negative behaviour.
Tell him if he ever really wants to reconcile, like he CLAIMS he wants, to get counselling, and not bother to talk to you again until he's resolved these behaviours with himself. And after that, you will consent to maybe TALK to him again. not just "take him back on his say-so".

mention that there is no guarantee that you will ever take him back, and you may well "move on" in a year or two.

Then... let him go. Dont talk to him. go dark.
But stay married to him. until such time as either he somehow threatens you through your marital status.. or until God shows you that there really is someone else specific that he has in mind for you.

Note: If you care about God's will, this means that you should not go "looking", and then say, "Oh! I found someone I like, it must be His will!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

that's my two bits. take it with a grain of salt, and prayer.

Techie,
I appreciate the advice and the insight.

I truly do want to do what is in God's will. No one can truly know what that is outside of God. My only way of thinking I know is to believe that things happen and are allowed to happen to confirm what I THINK I should do.

Several people have told me that they don't believe in circumstance so, when things happen that are negative and point toward D as the solution, I have to think this is God's "handwriting" to show me what to do.

I'm very thick skulled when it comes to "getting it".

He has told me that he cannot live w/o sex. We haven't been together in months, since I found out about the latest A and 3 OW that he has had/continues to have inappropriate Rs with. So, if I did what you suggest, go dark and say come back when you've gotten help, he would move on to someone else if he hasn't already.

You also said:
But stay married to him. until such time as either he somehow threatens you through your marital status.. or until God shows you that there really is someone else specific that he has in mind for you.

This one confuses me. Would God lead me to believe that the gentleman working in the office next to mine (this is hypothetical) is who he has in mind for me while I'm still a married woman and therefore unavailable?

I'm not looking to get out of this quickly (we've been separated since Feb 04 and the M has been pretty bad long before that) and move on to husband #3. I just don't want to waste any more of my precious years or those of my Ds on a bad R that isn't going anywhere.

Is you mind and heart in sync? Have you identified your personal & M boundaries? Where does your H fit in to those boundaries?

As for moving forward, you need to be in sync 1st. You need to id your boundaries and implement them so this stuff doesn't hold you back from being happy.

Do your best and live with the fewest amounts of regrets possible. Realize the A and it's problems are not yours to resove and it is your choice to move forward.

The sad part is it often takes the BS moving forward before you real spouse can take action and push to save themselves. Sometimes the BS is already too far removed to make the M work. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

The work for recovery falls on the shoulders of the Xws not the BS.

L.

Hi L2S,

I've been reading along your thread, and while I do not actually have experience with the WS thing personally, I do have considerable experience working with various people who were suicidal (those who admitted it, and those who do not).

While it may be true that the people who just decide in their own minds to commit suicide and say nothing about it are more of a risk, that does not mean people who talk about it a lot will not kill themselves.

People who talk alot about killing themselves often end up doing so... especially when they have the means to do so...

Your husband has obviously had morbid thoughts for years--and even if you (and others) beleive he is only trying to be manipulative, that really isn't for you to judge.

If he is still gone, and you know where he is, you should call someone immediately. Call a crisis line, call a woman's shelter, call 9-1-1-. Call someone.

You do NOT want to be the person making that assessment.

First of all, even if he is trying to manipulate you, there are plenty of cases where someone will "accidentally" kill themselves when a "manipulative attempt" goes awry.

Secondly, you would probably call the police (or crisis line, etc) for anyone else who told you they were going to commit suicide. Take him at his word, and don't try to "decode" his words. Let the police and other agencies deal with his threats idle or serious as they may be.

Please take this responsibility off your own shoulders--but not but not by ignoring it. If you continue to do nothing (since the first time) and he actually does something, you will regret it forever.

Good luck, L2S

Telly,

Great post Thanks for telling it like it s/b.

L2S, pay heed. This is some good advice. I know you are tired of his bluffing but he is dumb enough to do what he is saying and that's scary.

Take yourself out of the picture as Telly suggested and let others help him. You can and will be nearby but you will then be better supported.

L.

this can *never* be true. that's like people claiming they are having an affair, becuase "God wants them to be happy".

Jesus says "God hates divorce". I dont think God would ever encourage divorce. Divorce is allowed, for when we are not strong enough to follow through how God wants us to live; however, I dont think it makes sense that God would be encouraging you to do something he hates.

That is HIS choice to do the wrong thing. You are responsible for your actions to God, not his.
If he chooses to divorce you without you pressuring him for it, then I think you would then be free of biblical obligation towards him.

I would think that if God truely had someone like that in mind for you, you would develop a friendship with this person over a year or two, which after that, may indicate that this person would be a good person for you.
Not "little voices in your head, saying 'hey, that person i kinda know, would make a really good husband'"
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Being "unavailable" would actually make for a better friendship, and show you more clearly if someone is right for you long term, dont you think? As opposed to "i'm available, he's available... OK!"

I agree with calling others when your WH threatens suicide. If he's just doing that to manipulate you, he SHOULD be embarrassed to have the officials looking for him.

Other than that, I think you should absolutely have no contact with him, as I think he is extremely toxic to you.

He knows how to play you like a piano, so STOP being a piano!!!

He is aware of your feelings and insecurities, so he USES them for his own benefit. He has no interest in HELPING YOU. Life is all about him, and he has absolutely no clue about how to really have a fulfilling life.

Techie, I understand that you may be coming at this from a Marriage SAVING viewpoint, but there are some people who should not be married, and L2S's WH is one of them, IMHO.

L2S has PLENTY of reasons to divorce this man, even though she does love him. It's hard for me to imagine why she still loves him, but I suspect that she still hopes the man she saw during courtship was the genuine man...and I think THAT is the man she still loves. Well, sometimes I wonder why I still love my H, and my H is nowhere CLOSE to being the cruel man that her WH is. Part of loving someone, I think, is that we CHOOSE to continue loving them...no matter what.

As far as L2S's relationship with God, her WH has constantly tried to undermine it. If she goes to church, he RETALIATES against her by going to visit the OW! He actually tries to keep her from going to church by threatening to go to visit OW.

This guy is a LOSER, and IMHO, DANGEROUS to L2S!

L2S, as far as the divorce costing so much because he refuses to sign the papers, is there more to lose in terms of attorney fees than you would actually gain by agreeing to the terms as they are now and pushing the divorce through?

You just really need to be completely free of him, IMHO.
The best thing would be if you never saw or heard from him again. Again, IMHO.

i'm coming at it from a biblical perspective, not a marriage saving perspective, FYI.
the biblical perspective is that "oops I made a mistake in choosing who to marry" is not sufficient grounds for divorce.
For "sufficient grounds"... there's "biblical law grounds for divorce", and "what God really wants out of us".
Yes, she has sufficient scriptural 'legal' grounds for divorce. I dont dispute that.

that's a true statement... but i'm not sure that it is relevant to whether or not L2S follows God's wishes with HER behaviour <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
on the contrary, there are various bible passages that say (specifically to wives, even!) that in the face of a non-Christian (or non-Christian-behaving) husband, they should stand steadfast in their actions and commitment to God's ways.
Nowhere have I read in the bible, "if your husband does not follow God, or lead you spiritually, you should then divorce him.


this may also be very true!!
but it does not require divorce.

I am not a person that says "no-one should ever get divorced". For non-Judeo-Christian believers, there are lots of reasons/times to get a divorce, and it is reasonable for them to do so, probably. However, to those people who identify themselves as strongly believing in God, I feel compelled to remind them what God's wishes for marriage are.

I believe that these are wishes. They are not commands. In L2S's case, she is no longer under a biblical "command" from God, as it were, to stay with him, since he has broken the marriage covenant. She could divorce him, and be free of blame. However, there is still God's wish.

breaking a "command" = sin
not fulfililng a "wish" ... not sin.

Telly and Orchid,
The problem is that he is about 4 hours away in the northern part of our state. He is still calling and talking to me but he is still adamant that he is going to end it. He keeps saying that he is going to pay me back for the h*ll he's put me through in the only way he can - monetarily by life insurance and the sell of his property once he's gone.

Now I'm scared. I don't want anything to happen to him. I do love him and always will. We've just allowed so much to go on unresolved and have allowed one problem to build upon another till it seem impossible to recover. He's done stuff that is incredibly embarrassing to me. He has burned bridges w/my family; they know about the A and the resumption of R w/XW. They know so much of the nasty stuff, in part b/c I told and in part b/c others told them.

I don't know what to do. I'm going to call him again - cell. He has done this so many times that I just take it in stride and know that he will come back and then I'm going to see the nasty WH instead of the depressed, contrite, apologetic one I am talking to now.

What do I do?

HI L2S,

I've read your thread. The mock-suicide is over-the-top crazy. Even without the 3+ A's, I'd D without looking back based on those, alone. Your DD does not need this non-sense in her life. PLEASE take care of yourself - Dru

Techic - This woman has suffered her husband in an affair for 2.5 years. SHE HAS BIBLICAL GROUNDS FOR DIVORCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What part of that is unclear?

Her Husband (in name only) is TOXIC to her.

I would be really interested in knowing under what grounds YOU would advise her to divorce him? How bad would YOU require it to be?

This poor woman has a right to divorce her husband and it seems she should if that is what she decides.

Techie, not sure if you caught this part. He SLAPPED her! It may have been the first time he ever slapped her, but it wasn't the first time he's ever gone physical with her.

L2S has biblical grounds for divorce. The man committed adultery, along with the physical/emotional abuse and the threats. It's all about control.

L2S's daughter should not be brought up around this type of behavior under any circumstances.

L2S has more reasons to leave than to stay, even biblically.

"Bad behavior"? This would be an understatement. The man has threatened to kill her in her sleep.





This has gone beyond "negative" behavior.


Normally, I would agree with this advice, but in L2S's circumstances, I don't agree. He's abusive in too many unacceptable forms.


Sorry, bad call there. He HAS threatened her, or were you only referring to the marital status?


??? While still married? Ya' lost me on that one. I don't see how God would support the idea of watching for someone else while married.

This is just too confusing. And somehow, I don't think it would be in L2S's best interests to remain married for the sake of being "unavailable" to find "Mr. Right", just to be friends with for a few years, to see if this new person would be good for her or not.??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Maybe it's just me, but that totally does NOT make sense. Where in the Bible was THAT stated?

I don't think L2S should be adding any more confusion or drama to her current situation. It's better to finish one thing before starting another. But right now, as it stands, L2S needs to remain focused on the safety of herself and her daughter.

Orchid: He is babbling but in a scary way. What t/d? You call 911 and report his suicide threats. Yes, they are threats. When you speak with him and he talks as such respond firmly and lovingly. Let the police do the rest.

Ex:

WS: I am going to pay you back for all the misery I caused (this is babble because it could have double meaning).

BS: Pay back? The cost is high, you c/b paying for life, when are you gonna start? The life insurance isn't enough to cover a good funeral. The profit from the property will cover the taxes, then what? (leave him thinking he still owes you). You owe me babe. It w/b better you pay on the installment plan.




Orchid: You s/b scared but only enough to go get help. Call the police and report his threats.



Orchid: Calling him won't fix him. Each of your calls is giving him the energy to do it again. So you are participating in an endless cycle. He has to be put in a scenario he is willing to fight his way out of. He needs to be under observation. He needs to be in a controlled environment. Note how that is what he is fighting but what he really needs?!!?


Orchid: Call for help. Report this to the police in your area and his area. Let them know. They will locate him.

L.