I did, appreciate it fully, but have gone back and forth on this repeatedly. I know to do it right I should use my intermidiary for communication. I really do only respond as I said. I don't have a lot of people to help out without putting them out a lot. My intermediary has begun to have some serious health issues and my parents won't even see or talk to him when he gets the kids there. They watch for the car and then send them out.

I do like your definition idea. I think I'll consider a bit more and look at just sending that. I am getting very good at not jumping at things right away but trying to remain calm and think. thanks!

And if I do send definition only, do I respond when/if he brings up the feelings/thoughts things again, or is that just something he has to deal with on his own?

Angie - don't get sucked into an argument with him. That's exactly what he wants. Debating what a "relationship" means is ridiculous but it will let him get his fix of you while frustrating YOU beyond belief. Is that what you want?

Again - he is telling you that he wants to come home but that you can't expect him to give up his girlfriend. That's what his e-mail meant.

Just resend the Plan B letter, say NOTHING else, and don't let him suck you in. As Melody said, if you respond to this lunacy and start participating in it you have utterly defeated the purpose of Plan B. And then he's got both you and his girlfriend dangling at the end of the string, just the way he wants it.

Please don't allow him to have this.
Mulan

Angie, do you understand that responding as you do defeats the purpose of Plan B? Plan B is to seperate you completely from him and all this contact prevents that. Doing Plan B is not a check the box endeavor just to say you are doing it, but is intended to produce a specific OUTCOME. It cannot produce that outcome unless it is actually done.

I would also emphasize again that your H does not misunderstand the meaning of the word "relationship" at all. He is just playing head games with you.

I don't doubt the head games part. He's always been good at that sort of thing even in good times. As far as the plan b stuff, I understand, I really do. I know I'm failing in that regard.

Wait... I am a big fan of Plan B, but sometimes I feel like the Board gives the same answer to everyone. Reading what your H wrote reminds me a bit of what my H wrote at one time. When I was going through Plan A/B I counseled with the Harleys and I was told the following about Plan B ...

Plan B is like a door that you close on your WS and you tell the WS what needs to be done before you will open the door again (Plan B letter requiring NC, etc, etc). If your WS comes knocking on the door you may wonder if they are serious or just testing the waters. You can ask why he/she is at your door if you're not sure of his/her intentions - just like you would say "who is it?" before answering your own door. If the answer isn't what you need according to your Plan B letter, then don't respond further or open the door. Slide a copy of the Plan B letter under the door and continue with your life.

So... AngieM could say something like ... Dear H, to be clear, by ending the relationship I meant you need to end all contact with the OW, write her a NC letter that I see and we mail together, be transparent, etc, etc. After that, we can take the next steps to build a great marriage and address our feelings. Until then, please respect my wish not to have any contact with you as I stated in my letter. (then enclose a copy)

Can you call the Harleys for an appointment and advice? That would be best as the transition from Plan B to recovery is simple or easy to navigate.

Nev, I don't know what you mean when you say the "board" gives the same answer to everyone since there is no collective "board" but a group of individuals just like yourself. I see many different responses on this thread so I am even more confused.

That being said, I think it is important for Angie to differentiate between sincere interest in reconciliation or just an attempt to play head games and draw her into a debate. This is not uncommon in Plan B. [read Kimberly's thread] In this case, I have no doubt he understands the meaning of the word relationship and is only attempting to play games. Because of that, I don't think she should encourage him with a long, thoughtful response but a very short, terse note - IF ANYTHING - along with the Plan B letter.

Agree that Steve Harley would be a great help in any transition if it comes to that. Angie, SH will want to speak to your H before you reconcile after he has met the conditions of your letter. Would he do that?

oh, MelodyLane..sigh...by "board" I meant what appears to be (in my opinion only) the majority opinion or most common advice given by the good people who post here. Based on the rest of your post, it appears that you were not confused, but were instead making a point. Point taken.

AngieM - in case I wasn't clear - I received direct advice from the Harleys that contradicted some of the advice that I received from various board members at the time. I think the people who post here have a great wealth of knowledge, experience and wisdom, and they come here to help others. I just wanted to share what I had been told by the Harleys so that you could weigh it along with the other information. Counseling with the Harleys is not inexpensive (again, just IMO), but it was helpful to me.

Nev, I am glad you got my point. But I would also point out that what most of us have learned here is FROM the Harleys and from a great familiarity and EXPERIENCE with the principles. The advice given here is perfectly in line with MB principles. We did not just make it up, we are sharing our opinions on Marriage Builders principles. There is nothing here that is "contradictory" to MB principles and it shouldn't be dismissed as such.

I have to agree with Lexxxy here as I received a similar email from my WW. I replied by restating my Plan B conditions and now feel as I have been pulled back into the fray. I might consider sending the plan b letter one last time and then no more responses from you.\

Stay dark and let him reap the consequences of his actions. He obviously does not like your Plan B and will test you to see how serious you are.

Listen to the people here since they know what they are talking about.

Good luck.

MelodyLane, I feel like you are trying to pull me into a debate. I'm not interested in debating with you.

Let me be clear...

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never once said that the advice given here is "made up" or not based on the general MB principles.

I did say that the advice given for a particular person's circumstances can - and has - been contradictory/inconsistent with the direct advice given by the Harleys for that particular person's situation. I encouraged AngieM to have an appointment with the Harleys, if possible, to get expert advice that is tailored to her situation. That expert advice may or may not contradict what she has heard on this Board due to her particular situation.

None of us here, no matter how much we have learned about the MB principles or how much experience we have had with it, are as skilled or experienced as the Harleys.

Enough said. I'd like to get this thread back to focusing on AngieM and her issues.

Nev, many of the opinions on this thread are based on good solid MB concepts. You cannot speak for Dr. Harley about what he would do in Angie's personal case. That is insulting and presumptive. I can show you threads and even personal emails from Dr. Harley, that contradict the advice you gave here. So, you can't assume that she is getting "contradictory" advice simply because it is not exactly the same as what you were told, advice that was fitted to *your* INDIVIDUAL CASE.

The input you gave was very beneficial, just as beneficial as the opinions of others, so I don't understand why you felt the need to dismiss the opinions of others. It really wasn't necessary. As long as the opinions are within the parameters of MB principles, they are valuable and necessary in order for Angie to get a broad spectrum of views.

????? Where are all these false statements coming from????

Stop it MelodyLane. You are still putting words in my mouth to try to fuel a debate. Everything you just said about me in your last post is completely UNTRUE.

Here are the facts :

I never once "dismissed" anyone's advice. All I did was offer a different opinion/suggestion.

I never once said that anyone else's opinion or suggestion was wrong and mine was right.

I never once said that other people's opinions weren't beneficial.

I never once said that Dr. Harley's advice would be the same for AngieM as it was for me. I only offered my experience as one of many experiences that she could weigh into her decision. In fact, I made it clear that the best advice would come from the Harleys themselves.

Everything you just said that I "did" or "said" in your last post is COMPLETELY FALSE. Why would you do that?!? I have no idea, but I do know that it is unjustified and unnecessary. If I have personally offended you in some way prior to today, then let me know so that I can address it somehow.

Apart from that...
Stop misrepresenting what I said.
Stop attributing things to me that I never said.
Stop saying false things about me, my thoughts or my posts.
Stop disparaging me.

If you still want a debate, then join me tomorrow night at an abused children's advocacy program in the City. There you can use your intelligence and energy to argue for additional funding. Otherwise, leave me alone as you have no legitimate cause to treat me like this.

Nev, maybe you need to reread your own posts to understand how dismissive it came across when you stated:

"Wait... I am a big fan of Plan B, but sometimes I feel like the Board gives the same answer to everyone."

AND "AngieM - in case I wasn't clear - I received direct advice from the Harleys that contradicted some of the advice that I received from various board members at the time."

I am certainly glad to hear it wasn't your intention to dismiss anyone's opinion as worthless because, in your opinion, it "contradicted" the Harley's opinion. Thanks for clearing that up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the dust up there, Angie, hopefully this is the end of that, but I thought it was important that you knew you are receiving some good, although, diverse advice on this thread.

ML and AM, I apologize if my posts sounded dismissive. That was not my intent.

ML, you are entitled to your opinion. If you are going to quote me, then be sure to include the sentence from the same paragraph that states how I was sharing my experience only so that it could be "weighed along with" the other posters' experiences/information. That is the opposite of "dismissing" the other posts/opinions.

It's wrong to misrepresent my quotes and put words in my mouth and I will set the record straight. Here is the paragraph:

"...in case I wasn't clear - I received direct advice from the Harleys that contradicted some of the advice that I received from various board members at the time. I think the people who post here have a great wealth of knowledge, experience and wisdom, and they come here to help others. I just wanted to share what I had been told by the Harleys so that you could WEIGH IT ALONG WITH the other information..." (emphasis added)

I hope this is done now. Let's focus on helping AngieM. Have a good night.

Thanks for clarifying your position, Nev, but its wrong to deny what you so clearly said. Its also wrong to dismiss others by implying their opinions are "contradicted" by the Harleys when they are not. Glad you were not trying to do that and we can move on.