Eph,

I understand your struggle w/anger! If you checked ny thread, you know I went OFF on Drac the other night

While there was some sense of "relief & release" I do not recommend it. Because after, you worry about having damaged all of the hard work you have already done

And you have done A LOT of good, hard Plan A work!

What is your timeline for ending Plan A? I am sure you have said before, but I missed it

Well, then. Since this is gonna take awhile...let's start getting that Plan B letter together. Sit down and write it then post it here so we can vet it.

Time to get the battle plans together for the next stage of this operation.

Bugs:
agree 100% on damaging all the hard work. WW is probably looking for that as anger is one of my issues I am working through - being able to recognize that underneath the anger are the real feelings that need to be dealt with and then dealing with them rather than "blowing up" so to speak.

The timeline I had in my head all along was to try to make it to our anniversary for plan A - that is 6/6 which is in 2 weeks - then evaluate where I am and decide what to do next.

MM:
WW will have the kids through the weekend and also next week, so it will be a good time for me in the evenings to spend time alone and plan what to do.

A concern I have, which I think someone mentioned on another thread, is how WW and her lawyer and the GAL may react to this, possibly viewing it in a negative light. Would it make sense to at least let my attorney and the GAL know what is going on and why and that this is a plan recommended by Dr. H?

Like you mentioned, trying to cover my backside.

Of course, you will need to let them know why you are doing this. But as Mr. W said and I have said, I think you need some recent proof that she is continuing her betrayal. That is why I said get more intel!

Once you have that, then you can say that you cannot take her adultery any longer. That you are standing for your family and marriage, but you do not have to watch her destroy herself and the kids. That, until she is ready t ocome home where she belongs and act like a married woman, that you will not be having any direct communication with her. You are willing to set-up email or text messaging. I even like the idea of a notebook, which you fill in when you have the kids...then pass to her when she gets them. Then she gets to fill it in. Both of you fill in things that have happened, plus questions that need to be answered by the other.

If you explain to your attorney/GAL what you are doing and why...then the opposition's attorney will not be able to pen you in. Your wife will have access...just not toal access. You will have shown that you are co-parenting...but not allowing her to continue to harm you.

So, get it together. It is time to get that intel and shut things down. Once you do that...you get to begin your knew life finally.

You should be excited about that!

Eph, use Dr. Harley's explanation of Plan B and its intent and how it insulates the children not the opposite. BUT in addition here is a well written article that also supports the idea of min. to no contact even after D in most cases, much less dealing with ongoing, blatant adultery.

Hope it helps.
Plan B Support For GAL and Judge Review

I'm concerned about coming up with more intel on the situation as she may have wised up and went WAY underground or ended contact for a period of time so she looks better

The way I see it, this is what I have left to get via subpoena:

cell phone records, hers and of the phone OM1 gave her
Her laptop - this has the most potential I think.

After that, if nothing turns up, then it's all based on what I have gathered to date which only shows an EA - the road trip with OM1, the chatting with OM2 and OM3, her admission of begin emotionally involved via chatting, and OM2's recent revelation of her possible visiting him. Then of course there are the lies and her inconsistent co-parenting skills, maybe finding out who called the cops that night.


So regarding today's activities:
We took DS6 for the pre-op work and had to visit two doctor's offices. Nearly the whole time both the kids wanted to sit with me, either in my lap or next to me. Their interaction with WW was so small compared to the interaction with me.

All through this I kept asking W how she was holding up, scared, nervous, etc. Trying to let her know I was empathizing with her. Also was playful, trying to take her mind off things, somewhat flirty at times.

They had to draw blood at the second office and I held him while they did that. Oh how he screamed, but we made it through it. I carried him out to the car and told him he could decide where we would eat. I asked WW if she wanted to go, she asked where we were going and I told her DS6 would decide. When he said he wanted Jack In The Box, WW said she did not want to go.

I was thinking, here we just went through this traumatic experience for DS6 and here is a chance for you to spend some time with him afterward to comfort him and you pass it up!

Well then it got interesting.

Me: Are you OK? How are you feeling about this surgery? Is there anything I can do for you?
WW: You don't want to hear it.
Me: try me
WW: Let's stop fighting over the kids.
Me: I'm not fighting. We are at home.
WW: It's got to be your way.
Me: No, it's got to be the right way.
WW: In your mind.
Me: We are at home and you are welcome any time.

I walked off to my car (We drove in separate cars).

WW: (as she rolls down her window) I am following you out.
Me: fine. See ya.


She has also given me a list of things she needs to take on the trip that are still at the house, like the air mattress, blankets, kids clothes and shoes (dang these seem to be a recurring item), etc. Of course I expect to get everything back.

Ahh, topday is over now. Tomorrow DS6 graduates from K5, WW and the kids hit the road to KY tand I am playing golf with my SS teacher who has also been through D, and I have the house to myself until next weekend.

Let the strategizing and planning begin.

You are a good dad. I just can't fathom your wife not going to eat as a family after THAT!!!! I'm wondering if there is something mentally wrong with her. Did she do things like that before?

Eph,

This woman is as wayward as they come. She is so freakin selfish that she will not go and choke down a JITB hamburger in order to spend time with her child. She probably went straight to her cell phone and called OM to fill him in on the night's activities.

I would make a special note of the date, time, the conversation that took place regarding this dinner date with the family and then compare that to cell phone calls made from WW's cell phone (when records are subpoenaed). I bet that while you and your children including the son who just went through something scary were playing and eating she was chewing the fat with loser POS OM.

Document!

Good idea, hope and pray. This was all so unMOMly.

If I were a betting person, I'd wager OM shows up next week.

Why did she ask to "follow you out"??

Was she concerned you'd follow her???

Also...does she still have her cell phone and is it attached to her hip?? She may not be being as careful as you think??

Wonder if somehow OM is going to meet up with her while she is out of town. Typically, the fogbound are sooo consumed with hooking up with OP's they will risk it all if they think they can meet up with OP...no matter the risk for even just a couple hours. They will diliberately choose a seemingly inocuous destination that they think there is NO WAY anyone would believe OP would show up...thus their cover...then they get a sitter or create a drama so that they just have to have a night by themselves and OP shows up.

I forget where she is going but it may be handy to have a PI on the speed dial and ready to go if you need him/her. That way if your kids inform you one night the mommy is leaving them with so and so for the night...you can get your PI off and running.

Then again...you may absolutely know their is no way OM is going to show up. Just double check your confidence...then triple check it.

Mr. Wondering

Eph,

Sorry it’s been so long since I responded to you. In between times, I have read your entire thread and I had a bit of a situation of my own (all better now—thanks!), but now I have nothing but time for you.

I want to be sure that a couple of things are brought to light that tend to be the kind of individual details that can get lost on a forum like this. While many As are very, very similar, each one also does have some details that make it unique—and your M and your WW’s As have a couple of those!

For example, your WW has been diagnosed bipolar and has an eating disorder (ED, not to be confused with erectile dysfunction <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> ). The reason these two things are pertinent is that these two facts will affect/potentially change the way your WW sees things (vs. a “normal” WS) and it may also change the best way for you to work on your M. They are important facts to keep in mind that do slightly change the dynamic.

Next, at the beginning of this whole situation, before you came her to MB, you were not thinking real clearly—your WW was thinking through wayward fog AND bipolar—and you agreed to move out…then moved back home…then moved out and began to think you should “move on” with your life…then came here to MB and moved back into your marital home and stood for you family. Since that time, your WW has been basically blaming you for not honoring your promises, saying one thing and doing another, etc. BTW, this is one of those “standard’ WS lines that never ceases to tickle me… “…let me get this straight? You (WS) are mad at me (BS) for lying? The world is coming to an end because *I* broke my promise?” ROFL!!!! I swear, they can NOT hear themselves!

Next, there have been two instances of police involvement, and one instance of court involvement. The first police involvement was one evening, I believe you were moving back into the marital home, and she was getting very vicious and aggressive as well as trying to remove the children from the home, etc. At that point, rather than being accused of domestic violence yourself, the police were called and told you that you could not prevent the children from leaving. (Subsequently, she withheld the kids from you for WEEKS over the Christmas holiday—using them as a pawn to get your cooperation). Since that incident, she has used that against you as a weapon, blaming you for having a police record … when all along all she had to do was calm down and not threaten to use the kids to further her A. Eph, bear this in mind…SHE could have made choices that would not have required police intervention, but SHE chose to continue. YOU did not “do this to her” and that is her own refusal to take personal responsibility.

The court involvement was after she had withheld the children from you over the Christmas holiday. Temporary orders were going to be made by the court, and you gave honest evidence of what had been occurring. Rather than “hide” it or pretending she wasn’t doing what she was doing, you told the truth and the courts awarded you temporary custody. She holds this against you as calling her an unfit mother—whereas, once again, SHE could have made choices that would not have required her to lose custody, but SHE chose to continue. YOU did not “do this to her” and that is her own refusal to take personal responsibility.

The final police involvement was one night when she came over to your house to “hang out” and she was there most of the night just watching a movie and doing nuthin’…and a mysterious “someone” called the police for a wellness check, saying she was only supposed to be there an hour and had been gone for many, many hours. The police came over, found out she was fine, and left. WW denies knowing who the mysterious caller was, but we do know that the caller was a MALE person, so most likely OM.

The last piece of relatively unique info about your situation is that you do not really “proof” of your WW’s involvement in an A (actually, she has had three OM, right)? But, for example, I had a receipt from a FANCY, downtown hotel to our marital credit card for “Mr. and Mrs. XX” on XYZ date, and the hotel clerk confirms that a male and female checked in that day…and *I* was not the one who was there! Fairly definitive PROOF!! There may or may not be proof on your WW’s cell phone (bought for her by OM1) and on her laptop…but the fact is, you do not have an email to print out…or a list of 18hours of cell phone activity in one day to OM’s phone number…something TANGIBLE.

I think all these things need to be taken into consideration when discussing your situation, how to proceed and when to proceed, and WHAT TO DO.

* * * * *

A little while ago, now, ForeverHers wrote to you with a long, well-thought-out, well-documented post regarding whether to go into Plan B and when. It was my observation that he was addressing your sitch from a biblical point of view, and he made several AMAZING points. I would strongly recommend that you go back and re-read his post for “background.”

The one thing that I think ForeverHers may have neglected to consider is the added complication that your WW is diagnosed bipolar. Eph525, my exH was also diagnosed bipolar, so although I am not a clinical psychologist, I do have some personal knowledge and experience about the disorder. Is your WW Bipolar I or II? Bipolar I are grandly manic and then have depression—Bipolar II are usually less manic (called hypomanic) and then have major depression. How long are her cycles? Has she been prescribed any medications? Does she take them…more or less? (Most bipolar people, when in their manic phase, feel really good and don’t want to take them…so that’s common).

The reason I think it is pertinent to consider this particular diagnosis is that unlike schizophrenia or being psychotic…bipolar is a mental illness that affect MOODS and WAYS THAT THE PERSON VIEWS THE WORLD. In my personal opinion, many of the things that people “call” disorders are really people being stubborn and refusing to stop doing what they know is wrong (they won’t stop sinning) and then they do more and more to cover what they’re doing wrong, and then they get numb to how bad it feels. But the cost of “getting numb to how bad it feels” is that they begin to view the world in a way that is not quite right. I mean…it is somewhat askew…and that, I think, is partially what is happening to your WW.

Remember your TM chatting with WW the other day?? I found out A LOT about your WW that day just from what she wrote. Want to see??

She wrote: You have a funny way of showing it. … What I hear and what I know you are doing are 2 different things …. If you wanted me back you wouldn’t try to hurt me. … It is more than apparent you don’t want me to be happy. You would rather me be miserable. Because I would be if I gave in to your lies! … has to be your way, huh? Your way and only your way only. There is a problem with that. … I could pretend to love you and hurt you so you can see how it feels if you’d like.”

This tells me that in her mind, loving your spouse means letting her do whatever she wants with no consequences—or protecting her from her consequence. She thinks loving your spouse means that you feel “happy” all the time…and if you don’t feel “happy” then you need to go somewhere else. She thinks that loving your spouse means never making a mistake or it can be used against you as a weapon. She thinks that loving your spouse means letting her have it HER WAY. Eph525, by looking at this, can you see how her way of viewing the world is just slightly askew and unrealistic? What she’s defining here is NOT real, mature, healthy love—it is entitlement and selfishness.

She also wrote: “You want me but you want to prove me a ****** like you called me in the bedroom or unfit as a mother. I hear what you say but I listen to what you do! … So if you want to play or fight dirty and you can live with yourself, your Christian self, then you go right ahead. … You had your chance. I can’t help the way you feel. I begged you. … I’m changing it for the better thank you very much. Too bad you can’t see it and accept it. … As long as both parents are happy and we co-parent the kids will be just fine. K backed that up. … Tired of you attacking me after your fake forgiveness. Tired of your love hurting me. … Not after what you’ve done not after what you are trying to do. Not after all the lies and bull on both sides.”

Eph525, really look at these statements…CLOSELY. She may have a skewed view of the world and marriage and love and what commitment means, but she IS trying to tell you what hurts her and what doesn’t. It deeply hurt her that you called her a name. It deeply hurt her that she was found an unfit mother. [Remember: she could have made choices to be a FIT mother—but she did not expect YOU to be the one to prove that her choices were unfit.] It deeply hurt her that you were inconsistent. [Remember: it was HER actions that created the situation where you were moving in and out though…and once you got settled down and got your head on straight, you were VERY consistent.] It deeply hurt her that you “fight dirty” and then claim to be a Christian. [Remember: this is often something that people hurl at imperfect christians when they are making the choice to be sinful. It’s like hurling out “hypocrite” makes you even with them.] It deeply hurt her that (in her mind) she tried to tell you there was trouble in the marriage and you didn’t “save her.” [Remember though that her “definition” of love is someone who prevents her from experiencing the consequences of her own choices.] It deeply hurt her that you said you forgave her and then apparently didn’t. It deeply hurt her that it seems to her that you have a “campaign” against her to keep her kids or hurt her or whatever. [Remember: you would have no “campaign” if she was not having As and taking the kids away from their dad and home.] Now…bear in mind that *I* know and *YOU* know that most of these statements are things that she has chosen or done to herself and all you have done is reveal the truth rather than hide it. But in her mind…these are the things that deeply hurt her.

Therefore, after considering ALL OF THIS, I would recommend this:

1) Since you have the next two weekends “off” and the kids are with her, it’s an excellent time to begin the process of PLANNING for Plan B. Get some things in place. Think about it. Mentally and emotionally prepare for it.
2) Look over the list of things that she says deeply hurt her. If any of those things honestly convict you, go apologize and make amends. Use REPS: (R)esponsibility, (E)mpathy, (P)lan , (S)afety and be a model of someone who TAKE personal responsibility for their choices.
3) I believe it is conceivable that when/if you go to Plan B, your WW is going to think, “See? I KNEW he’d abandon me too!” but that is a part of bipolar thinking. Actually, a LOT of what your wife acts on and believes is part of bipolar thinking (i.e., “Love makes me happy” “I shouldn’t have to experience consequences” “People I love abandon me” etc.) Thus, it MIGHT do you some serious good to look up “bipolar” on Google, go to the library or Barnes and Noble and read books, or talk to a therapist. The thing is this: unless your WW sees that her thought patterns are skewed and is willing to go to counseling to learn a different way of thinking and viewing things (like…she is willing to go to IC to learn what mature marriage and commitment are) then she will continue in her bipolar way of thinking. You can not change that. I think it might do you a world of good to find out what IS an affect of her bipolar…and what is sort of “normal” wayward thinking (if there is such a thing). I highly suspect that you may not be able to do anything in this situation.
4) Finally, I would suggest that consider doing what I did—sort of. I personally believe that marriage is “til death parts us” and that mental illness is part of “in sickness and in health”…thus I refused to walk away from the M. But…I came to realize too, that although my exH would not file, he had left the M, had turned his back on it, and it was dead. I set a timeframe, after which time I knew that he was not willing to deal with his mental illness…he was not willing to work on himself…and he was not in the M anymore. At that point, I did file D papers so that the legal status matched the actual status—that he had consciously chosen to walk away.

I believe Plan B is coming up for you, sooner than later, and I believe you timeframe of hanging until June 6th is realistic. So do your work and I’ll see ya after Memorial Day!

Your mama bee,


CJ

believer, h&p - yeah, this is so out of character for her. In the past we have done things like this when one or both of the kids has been through something traumatic. I was actually shocked she did not want to go with us.

She is really inconsistent in doing things as a family. For instance, when DS6 was singing at church one Sunday night, she came and sat with me and DD3. Several people from church who know of the situation later came to me and said they thought maybe things had changed since she sat with me.

During two separate activities at DS6's school we sat together. We did DS6's birthday and Valentine's Day and Easter together, but not Mother's Day (if I am not in plan B by Father's Day I suspect she will stay away).

Two or three times here lately she has rebuffed requests to go eat together.

Mr W - the comment "I am following you out" was made because she did not know how to get back home from the doctor's office. She is really not good and never has been so good with directions.

On the cell phone - yeah it is usually nearby. When I pick up the kids in the afternoons, she usually has her little bluetooth earpiece in. Now her "job" she has is in sales of satellite television so she may or may not be working.

I am hoping the phone records show the phone number for incoming calls as well as outgoing calls.

As far as OM goes - she is at her brother's place in KY. I highly doubt she will meet OM in any way while there. As far as I know, her brother does not know anything about WW's history with OM. I just don't see them getting together in this scenario.

FWCJ - Wow, lots to read there. I still have not digested all of what FH had to say yet.

Regarding the police, they have indeed been called to our home twice, but the first time was when she came over (before court) to get "stuff" and I called them to keep her from taking family stuff from the family home. At that point she had already taken the kids to her mom's and was withholding them from me. The second time was indeed as you described.

Interesting to note - the first time 3 police people showed up, the second time only 1.

The lone court date was in fact a result of her filing for LSA; otherwise what you described is more or less what happened.

The quote “You want me but you want to prove me a wh*re like you called me in the bedroom..." - I don't know what incident she is referring to here. I've never called her that.

Otherwise, let me digest what you have written. I really do appreciate your feedback on this.

HI, Just checking in on your today...I won't be on the cpu much but you know how to get in touch with me!

Just hangin out, doing clothes...much of nothing!

Good Morning! How are you doing? I hope that your weekend went well!

Hey Eph,

If you get a chance will you pop on this thread and talk to Chris?

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=1

I think you might be able to help him.

~Marsh

Again, just watch out for any overnight shopping trip or other lame excuse for her to get out for a girl's night or some peace and quiet. Waywards use the unexpected to their advantage and affairs desparately need face to face time to confirm and maintain the fantasy. They will stop at nothing and take many risks to get a dose of their fantasy.

Mrs. W was visiting her parents and staged a fight with them so she could walk out on them sooo frustrated like she just had to spend the night at a hotel and leave our daughter with her parents. It was a preplanned fight so she could get a night alone with OM. Another clue was she spent hours getting ready for essentially nothing prior to the fight. She regrets this immensely.

Mr. Wondering

WW called me Sunday night so I could talk to the kids. it sounds like they are having a good time.

In IC Monday we talked about disconnecting more and more from the situation, guarding my heart, essentially moving to plan B. She is not so knowledgeable on Dr. Harley's principles, but in this case things line up. I've reached the point where further interactions with her will drain what love is left.

I had sent her the TM thread we had last week. She read it and said that WW sounds "convinced" like she has never heard her before. Even she does not recognize the person WW has become.

I'm working on the PBL. I am going to get out of God's way. It is gonna take Him entirely now.

She called me again last night so I could talk to the kids, but we talked for about 15 mins beforehand. Talked through this weekend with DS6's surgery. I told her that DD3 would be staying with a friend Sunday night since I would stay in the hospital with DS6 Sunday night so I could bring him home Monday.

She got upset that I did not ask her first because she was their mother. I told her the kids were at home this weekend and I had made the arrangements. She tried to argue with me about it, asked if I would be upset if the situation were reversed and she did not ask me first. I told her when the kids are visiting her it's up to her how she handles it. I won't demand it.

I didn't want to engage in her argument. I kept my answers short - kinda unemotional. She asked what was wrong - I said nothing new.

I told her it sounds like the kids were having a good time. her response was "I never had any doubts about that."

I think she sees me disconnecting, hears it in my voice more and more. Maybe it scares her? I dunno.

Much to work through in the upcoming days. Hang in there with me.

The more I think about it

That text message argument could possibly have been an intentional argument strictly to give her some documentation to quell the fears of OM who is sitting patiently on the sidelines feeling all insecure. She even made up the part about you calling her a name in the bedroom and there was NO reason, other than to document for OM, that she would make up a conversation between you and her if it was only for you to read.

That's particularily why it was so out of character and inconsistent with her recent interpersonal exchanges with you.

Just thought you'd like to know. I know you were told NOT to try to analyze it. Just chalk it up to fog talk. But I remember that is easier said than done.

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - good job on taking charge of the situation at the hospital, the overnights and the arrangements.

p.s.s. - Trying to think of what the perfect reverse babble thing to have said to her comment "how would you feel if the situation was reversed? Lot's of choices...Perhaps "Exactly, I myself have been wondering for the last 6 months how you would feel if the situation were reversed" or "Sure, let's reverse them...then I can choose to come home to you, right?"

It is Plan B time, my friend. Dont fear it...it is now your best friend. Now, you get to get off the rollercoaster and begin your life again. As long as you do this Plan B as well as you did Plan A, then you will be able to move forward now. You will be able to plan, to put things back in order. You will no longer be under siege.

You know my story. Your relationship with your wife long term may not be over. Odds are, it isnt. But what is over is the abuse of you.

It is time. The Lord will take care of her. He will do what it takes. That should be your prayer from now on: "Lord, please do WHATEVER it takes to bring Mrs. Eph back to You." And then, move out in your new direction.

Dont look back. It will only derail you and cause you pain. Instead, move forward. In her world, things will get very lonely! And she will see you moving on. She will see her family moving on. This will be the scaredest she has ever been in her life. So, she will try to derail your Plan B. She will try to be sweet and get you to maybe work on your relationship. Then, without her unconditional surrender, she will become angry that you wont engage her any further. The next phase is resignation that she will not move you.

It is at that point that the Lord will best be able to have His voice heard by her.

Do not spare her the consequences of her actions. There is now only one way back home. Any other way, you must reject. It must be total surrender...or you are moving forward with your kids...and she gets left behind.

Plan B is your friend. After the initial withdrawal period you will have, things will get better everyday. You will get stronger. And you will begin to see the future the Lord has for you.

Time to trust Him like you have never done before. Trust Him to lead you in the right direction...and to heal you. And also trust Him to love your wife enough to do whatever it takes to get her outer brain casing removed from her waste disposal unit.

Timing wise, I would do it the week after the surgery. As soon as your son has recovered enough (because you dont need the added stress while you are going thru this surgery and recovery), then you give her the PBL and go dark!

This is good, Eph. This is the best news you have had in awhile.

Mr. W - after thinking about it I should have replied to her "The situation shouldn't even be as it is and neither one of us should be having to make decisions about where the kids will stay."

Forgot this one - DS6 had his K-5 graduation last Friday. WW and I were sitting together, and she actually said "I wonder why DS6 looks so unhappy."

DUH? Maybe he misses his mommy at home? DING DING, we have a winner.

MM - there is still some fear but I feel it is right. A part of me feel like it is more loving to move out of the way (for a season I hope) than to continue to engage in it with her.

I am concerned about finding in intermediary to help with the kid exchanges. I was actually thinking of trying to get them into some kind of summer program, I know WW will pitch a fit about it - she thinks her keeping them while I am at work is part of her custody - the truth is it's just childcare - her custody time is every other weekend. I probably need to speak with my attorney on this as well.