It's been almost 2 weeks since D-day. WS has completely cut off contact with OW. He actually did it partially the night before I told him I knew everything and now has done it fully. I filed for Divorce before I told him I knew anything. It has been bad for years and this was the last straw.

We're talking and talking and talking. Very honestly, no LBs from my side. But I'm worried that we'll just be in the same place 6 months from now. Several friends have said WS is emotionally abusive. I can feel it going on and see it when it happens now. In the past, I couldn't. WS doesn't see it at all - doesn't see it as manipulative, abusive, anything even when I point it out to him when it's happening.

Also, he hasn't admitted to everything. From his emails, he did have sex with her (but never explicitly stated) but he says he did not. That he just messed around with her some. He continues to minimize it - that it was just a little kissing, what's the big deal, it's one mistake in 12 years, give him a break, etc. He also lied to me when he was supposedly telling me the truth about what happened. And also lied to me about another occasion. I called him on both incidents and again he minimized one and swore that the other one was a mistake - that the software recorded it wrong (yeah, right).

I had begun Plan A when I found out about the A. And really feel like this stuff works. I found my feelings returning and hope in WS as well. I guess I'm scared though that it's not enough. Dr. H recommends separation in the case of true emotional abuse. WS is considering a separation although I go back and forth on it. I feel like if we're going to work on this, then we work on it in the same house, living together.

I'm not sure what my question is. I know no one can tell me that it's worth it - I have to decide for myself. I guess I'm asking if it's typical for the WS to minimize and continue lying? I'm not sure I can live with that thinking that it could be happening in the future as well.

There is no hurry deciding. I suggest that the two of you go to counseling. If your husband refuses to go, you go alone. After going through all of this, you don't want the same old marriage back.

I would only take him back if he agrees to create a new marriage founded on MB principles, and never have it go back to the way it was before.

hanes, it is pretty typical of a freshly busted WS to minimize his affair. He still feels very defensive about it and is afraid to tell you.

The problem with this tactic is that it actually makes it harder on HIM to withhold the truth because it just invites more questions on your part. Recovery starts when the truth is on the table. What happens when a WS withholds is that the BS always KNOWS that facts are being withheld because things don't add up. The BS digs and digs until it all comes out, though. Every new little tidbit that is dug up puts you both back to Day 1 of recovery with fresh anger and hurt.

So, it really is best to get it all out in one fell swoop. Much easier to recover from ONE BLOW than to die a death of thousand cuts. I will link you to Joseph's letter. Print this up and hand it to him. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...rue#Post2739000

Secondly, I would read the Four Rules of Protection and go over this with him. http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

A couple of questions:

1. What exactly do you mean by "abusive?" How is he abusive?

2. Has he ended ALL contact with the OW? Will he send her a no contact letter?

"Abusive behavior usually begins when a couple tries to resolve a conflict the wrong way. Instead of finding a solution that meets the conditions of the Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse), an effort is made by one spouse to force a solution on the other. Resistance to the proposal is matched by increasing force until the spouse browbeats the other into submission. Every fight is an example of abuse because it uses the tactic of emotional or physical force to resolve a conflict instead of respect and thoughtfulness. "

That's what I mean by abusive. WS does whatever he wants whenever he wants no matter what I think or want or do for that matter. And he puts incredible mental pressure and gymnastics on me to agree to whatever he wants to do. My friend calls it mind-f***kery to give you a good image.

I'm going to do short posts b/c I'm getting timed out and my long posts lost (arrgghh!).

I have also been abusive with AOs and DJs for years.

WS is competely unsure he wants to commit to the marriage. He is doing small things already like waking up when the kids gets up, but he has said clearly that if he wants to go to the club (where the A happened) 6 months from now and I don't want to go that we may find ourselves in the exact same spot. Not that he would cheat again, but that he will go and do whatever he wants to do.

He has said he closed the email account that the OW contacted him through. That she did email him yesterday but that he did not respond, rather closed the account. He says that he never called her and the cell phone bill doesn't come for a while for me to even check that. I know I could go online and check but should I push the issue? He gets so angry whenever I calmly tell him that he is not being completely honest with me. I do believe that he has cut off the relationship. Is that enough? I don't know if I should keep checking. Is it normal to be the BS and want to keep checking and checking and checking?

Should I check in front of him? Like go through his cell phone with him and check? I'm really making an attempt here to be completely honest with him. Like asking him if she emailed him and what he did. And he agreed that it was positive that I came to him with those questions. But also said to "let it lie. You like to stir things up. Just let it lie."

I think that's what's frustrating to me. That he doesn't see my level of frustration with this - that this is not just "over" for me like that. That I have to process what's going on and will not truly trust him for years if not ever. Which brings us back to the original question - I'm not sure *I* want to live like that - with someone i never feel like i can trust again. How do you deal with that as a BS?

Well, you don't want to be completely honest with him about your snooping efforts until trust is restored. Trust has to be EARNED, and until he earns it back, you should not trust him. Dont trust his word on anything. Don't ask him if he has been in contact, check yourself when he is not looking. Put spyware on his computer. You can't always expect the truth from an untrustworthy person.

Instaad, snoop in ways he doesn't expect so you will get the truth. It makes no sense to check when he KNOWS you are checking. He will just erase the evidence.

You CAN learn to trust him again if he demonstrates trustworthy behavior over a long period of time. It will take alot of hard work on his part.

Keep checking! Your reaction is sound and NORMAL. You are living with an untrustworthy person and must take steps to protect yourself from him. It is your obligation to check everything until he restores trust. I would go online and check his cell phone bill, put a keylogger on his computer and if you still have doubts, put a voice recorder in his car! Watch your back right now.


Dishonest people always get mad when busted. Its ok if he gets mad.

I can't put a keylogger on. He came home last week and scanned the Pc and found spector and now has some type of program on the Pc where he will know if any type of spyware is being run/used.

I'm really struggling with this. Why would i want to live with someone who is untrustworthy? Then I read all the research about divorce and the effects on kids and want to stay to try to make it work no matter what. But I don't know if I can truly do that living so unhappily.

Also, he's willing to go to therapy but is perfectly "happy" living together miserable. His goal is not a happy marriage. His goal is only to be able to live with his children. He has stated very clearly that he has no interest in changing other than cutting off his A.

hanes, you will have to decide if you want to stay with him or not. He seems pretty clear that he isn't willing to do what it takes to recover your marriage. If nothing is done about this affair, then it is doomed to happen again. Dr. Harley said this on his show TODAY.

If he doesn't come around and try to recover your marriage or even do the very basics to restore trust, I would take a hard look at Plan B. If you have to continually live in fear of the next affair and his verbal abuse, you are setting yourself up for a nervous breakdown or years of post traumatic stress disorder. That would be a disaster for your children.

What was his objection to this?

He was really angry that I had "invaded his privacy." This was the first thing that happened that revealed the A - we spent that night until 4 a.m. talking about everything. He still maintains that I'm a horrible person for spying on him.

melodyLane - thank you for your honest advice. I am coming to the same conclusion. That if he isn't willing to even do the very basics then I cannot stay with him. We see a therapist next week which I'm hoping will help clarify things for me.

Also, I don't know if this is right, but I keep going back to the emails he wrote the OW. How he was so manipulative of her, saying that she shouldn't have any regrets b/c he doesn't. But that she would have to be happy living as an OW, not part of his life truly. And all the graphic sex talk with her. I guess my question is whether I should come back to that stuff or should I let it go knowing that's what people do in an A? That it's over now and I have to let it go. What trips me up is that he regrets that he hurt me so deeply but still doesn't regret that he had the A.

You realize this is a smokescreen that is exclusively used by those who have something to hide, don't you? No one has the right to the privacy to have an affair. Folks who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

It is horrible to have an affair, it is not horrible to CATCH someone having an affair. He has no right to the privacy to have an affair. You have an OBLIGATION to snoop on him as long as you have reason to believe he is harming you behind your back. And it appears that you were CORRECT in your fears.

He is hiding stuff from you, hanes.

Plan A a little longer. Reverse babble him in the meantime.

WH: You violated my space by spying on me.

You: I wouldn't have to spy on you if you weren't cheating on me.

WH: I'm not cheating on you anymore.

You: How would I know, you try to counter every measure I take to try and verify that. What, you expect me to trust you after you cheated on me? You've got to earn that trust back.

If he continues this behavior, go to plan B after the holidays, and kick him out until he respects your boundaries. You know how to defeat a bully, you stand up to them.

Does he feel its ok to have an affair? Was this his first affair, hanes?

And is your counselor EXPERIENCED in the field of infidelity and is he PRO-Marriage? Because most are not experienced AT ALL in this field and many are not pro-marriage. They cause more harm than good.

hanes, print this off and show it your husband and take it to your MC. These are the things that need to happen in order to recover your marriage and protect it from a recurring affair:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5065_qa.html

Hi Hanes- I too am in a long marriage with kids and my H had an affair 5 yrs ago. I definitely did not want a divorce and WH did go to some counseling for a few months after he finally ended his affair. However, during the next few years things seemed to drift back to the way we were relating to each other( he was controlling and I was the pleaser) before and since I still struggled with trusting him and trying not to question him or check up on him too much it led to tension. He hated talking about the affair and trying to improve our marriage on an emotional communication level was not going well. Now I'm to the 5 yr point after his first affair and just found out he's been in ANOTHER long affair! I've just seen a therapist who made it clear to me that my WH is emotionally and verbally abusive. So I've filed for D even though I wish it wasn't necessary. However I can't continue to wake up every day with the possibility that staying with him this is going to happen AGAIN! Take care and best wishes for you and what you decide to do.

We talked again last night and he read the stuff that I printed out. He is willing to make the changes and says he will do anything to stay.

But he's very, very angry that I have not cancelled the divorce proceedings. And he's still abusive even through this. So this morning said, "get your hands off me" very angrily when I told him I wanted to wait until after our MC on Wednesday to decide whether to cancel the divorce. I said it very calmly and explained that this was *my* process. He sees it as me trying to control him.

Is not cancelling it a love buster? Is that a stupid question? I see it as something I need to proceed with until proven otherwise. But he sees it as impossible to truly work on our marriage with a divorce proceeding hanging over it.