Hi SS -


As ML pointed out, she is correct. She has to want this (and you know that as well). What I would suggest is that you have a timeframe in mind. You don't necessarily have to tell her the timeframe, but at the very least have a timeframe in mind. If she is not actively pursuing some sort of program for alcoholism by date X, you need to do action Y.

Date X, and action Y, are entirely up to you. But it's very important that you be willing (and able) to follow through on action Y, and that you do it out of love, not punishment.


Well, it's a good start. By the way, YOU should be the one to mail the NC letter, after you approve it. That does 2 things - one, it lets you know that it was mailed, and two, it ensures that she doesn't put a second letter in with the first. I would also suggest sending it signed receipt return requested, for proof of delivery (I did this in my case, but OM sent it back unopened. I'm pretty sure he knew it - or something like it - was coming).

Also, if you have SAA, take a look at what Dr. Harley recommends should (and shouldn't be) in the letter. There are also some examples floating around the forums that I can dig up for you if you want.

She also needs (IMO) to give you a plan to maintain NC (what she will do if he contacts her, what she will do if she feels the urge to contact him, etc), and a way to verify that NC is in place and maintained (this falls under the category of 100% honesty and transparency).

This could (should) include access to all her e-mail accounts, phone, and anything else she could or has used to contact him. It is not unusual for a WS to want some sort of closure contact after agreeing to NC.

In short, as you know, the burden of NC is on her. You can certainly do your part to help, but it is ultimately her responsibility.

And yes, she needs to leave her job or he does. Otherwise, contact will happen, even in the course of the job, and may reignite the affair (or at the very least setback/delay your recovery).


And if she doesn't quit the job, and OM stays there, she can most certainly bet that the intimate feelings she says she wants for you will not return. It's been proven over and over again - there are people on this forum who have had their recoveries seriously set back (or even lost their marriage during recovery) due to contact with the OP.

While my wife did not work with OM, the lack of NC on her part (and unwilligness to establish a plan for it) is what, IMO, lead to our false recovery late last year.


You don't get something for nothing. Cliche, but true. At some point, if she trully wants a chance at your marriage, she's going to have to take a leap of faith and act like it. Feelings are fickle, and if you run your life on them you will certainly be at the mercy of the emotional ocean.

When I was a lowly division officer in the Navy in my youth, I used to tell my people that sometimes I would ask them to things that did not make apparent sense at the time. They simply had to trust that I had a good reason for asking them (and realize that even I might not know why), and do it. The same thing applies here (IMO).

This is not some fad program. This is something that has worked for thousands of people. And I don't think that the actions lead to feelings theory is unique to the Harley's. It's probably a basic tenant of human psychology.

Look at a hobby, for example. Usually, a person starts a hobby because they have at least a passing interest in it. As they get more involved and do more, they also begin to develop feelings regarding the hobbies.

Actions lead to feelings. Simple as that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


She is broken. Now she needs to decide what she's going to do to fix herself. I think she's still in withdrawal, and without NC established, these feelings she wants for you are going to be hard to get.

I believe that a lot of people (myself included) have no clue what marriage is really about. We all understand infatuation and being "in love". What we don't understand is that a good marriage is built upon a mature love. A love that is a choice, and a love that both parties work to nurture and grow. This work is where the actions come in.

Establish the mature love, work to keep it alive, and the sexual attraction will follow.

I know you know this. Your wife is still struggling with this. It's one of those things that she has to understand, and she has to get there on her own. Keep doing your part - keep showing her the way.


Caution here. These forums are your safe haven right now. If you bring her here, she can read what you post. There are couples that post on this board successfully. There are also other couples that have brought their marital fights onto this forum, with disastrous consequences for them.

I would strongly suggest waiting until your wife is firmly committed to your marriage before bringing her here. My wife started posting shortly after I did - she got handled very roughly because she was still in the A (in fact, she was with OM when she started posting). She was not ready to hear what people were trying to tell her.

In fact, that's the primary reason I'm not talking details anymore about my situation - she knows I post here, and while I don't know if she ever reads it, I'm not inclined to risk my thoughts being that available (plus there are others in our life that may also know I post here).

So keep the forums for yourself for now. Once your wife commits, there'll be plenty of help for her here.


I believe Orchid was the BW <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There are some FWW's on here that might be willing to talk with your wife - I suggest posting a new thread with that in your title and see if there's anyone who can help. But before doing that, I'd have your wife look at Dr. Harley's Basic Concepts.


What was their reaction to the A? Are they willing to support your marriage (and OM's), and work to keep the affairees separated?

Does your wife's employer have any company policies about dating or affairs?

Finally, I want to echo ML's suggestion that you call Dr. Harley. I called and talked to him on Monday, and he's truly amazing. He tumbled onto something about my wife that I had not alluded to or mentioned in my e-mail (though I had thought about it myself). He's been doing this for 30 years, and if anyone's seen it all, he has. You'll probably get a chance to talk with him for a couple minutes one-on-one off the air when they go to break as well. Make the call - you'll be glad you did.

Also, are you or your wife pursuing IC and/or MC (Individual Counseling and Marriage Counseling)? If you are not, I think you should. Both aspects are critical to recovering a marriage. If you can afford it, call the Harley's themselves. Steve Harley (Dr. Harley's son) is supposed to be quite good at connecting with the WS, or so I have heard (my wife has an appointment Monday with him).

If you can't afford the Harely's, make sure you find a good pro-marriage counselor. Many MC are more accurately described as divorce counselors.

Keep up the good work. I think your wife is coming around - just keep doing your part of the job, and be patient (and I know how hard it is to be patient in this situation).

The radio show only made it an hour. I spoke with Joyce and she told me to call at noon EST on Monday and I would get right on.

Both supervisor's in my opinion would like not to get involved unless forced to. More knowledge of W boss than his.

Went there today and W boss working out of different office today, so that will have to wait until next week.

HB, W said my approval and mailing of NC letter was fine.

I did tell her that OM and OMW had called me and she wanted to know what he said. I kept it short in reply, "he said you were lying alot". Which he did.

She got upset by that and wanting to know what he said also leads me to believe even without contact she still has feelings for him and told her so. She didn't deny it.

The only 'action Y' I can think of is separation. W mother told me if I tell her to separate, she will take that me ending things and never come back. W did that in first M.

I have SAA and think W needs to write it and me get out the red pencil as opposed to her reading first. What do you think?

Only method of contact now would be company email, phone, or on site visit. If W can get the company to block their phones and email, only sight visit would be left unless they have gotten new cell phones. Again after hearing OM and my W talking about each other the last few days, I am not quite so concerned about contact for awhile. More wary of looking the other up if their M runs into difficulty latter.

We did have one session with Jennifer, but when Jennifer said something my W didn't want to hear, she left. Same as with each book she has started and Mort Fertel's CD's.

She was in IC until 5 weeks ago and counselor told her she needed to go to some out patient coping classes or she wouln't she would have to find other treatment. W used the excuse that she couldn't get off work and didn't go and has stopped IC.

My W would tell anyone, "tell me I have to do something or not do something and I will do the exact opposite".

I do believe withdraw/fog is still an issue even though she says she's past it and the booze is a major player keeping her from feeling much at all or thinking clearly. She mentioned last night before the muscle relaxers nodded her off, she isn't feeling guilty just angery. I have learned those two emotions are two sides of the same coin and they are off again and on again daily with her.

Depending on what Dr. Harley says Monday, I am going to tell W I am going to call Jennifer again if she wants to sit in on the call, she will be welcome.

Trying to keep my eyes on the horizon and my hands on today.

SS, don't let some temporary conflict in the affair lull you into a false sense of security. We have numerous cases on this forum that turned into 5-10 year on again, off again affairs because of this mistake. They ALL believed that the affair was over, etc, etc. But guess what? Those feelings rekindled the first time they contacted the OP. Those feelings can come back in about 2 seconds flat.

This is an addiction and it has to be viewed in the same way you would an substance addiction. It would be like sending an alcoholic into the bar every day, placing a cold beer in front of him and expecting him to stay sober. Not only is he thinking of that beer ALL THE TIME, but when the INEVITABLE weak moment hits, he will pick it up again.

And I promise you she will have lots of weak moments, SS. This is why Dr. Harley says that "recovery is IMPOSSIBLE" unless contact ends for life. So keep this in mind and only agree to continued contact if you are VERY WILLING to endure a years long, on again, off again AFFAIR. Because it will happen.

I am glad you touched base with Dr. Harley. He is fantastic and should be a great help.


I would respond to her that she doesn't HAVE TO do anything. But you HAVE TO protect your boundaries, AND WILL.

Another suggestion would be to stop engaging in Plan A, SS. Trying to meet the needs of an alcoholic is impossible, because of their warped emotions. Rather, an alcoholic uses it as opportunity to EXPLOIT you even further and continue her drinking. So, back off of the Plan A for now.

Hi SS -


Did you also send a summary e-mail? I e-mailed my situation to Joyce a week before I called, and she had read it and had it ready to review when I got on the show.


That is your wife's choice. And that is why if you choose separation, you should do it via Plan B. In the Plan B letter, you express your continued desire to reconcile, that you love your wife, but also state again your conditions for reconciliation.

It's up to your wife to choose her own path - you cannot do it for her.


I don't see any harm in having her read the part of SAA regarding NC letters - if she's open to it. But yes, you should be prepared to edit her letter (and for her to incorporate your edits) before it is sent. The NC letter is one method by which the WS can signify there willigness to work on the marriage (if they keep NC).


What about cell phones, personal e-mail, etc? Do not underestimate the cunningness of a WS to get their fix.


Again, so? I'm not trying to be cavalier here. She is an adult and can choose her own path - what you don't need to do is to accept blame for her choices. Her choices are 100% hers.

This is one of the important things to understand about boundaries. They are not ultimatums (though the WS may view them that way).

If you say "For me to continue to work on our marriage, I need NC and AA from you" is not an ultimatum. It is simply telling your wife what you need from her to continue to work on your marriage.

If you said "It's either NC and AA or the highway", that would be an ultimatum. Again, subtle but important difference.

Do not be afraid to do what you need to do to protect your boundaries. Bobpure* (a very well known and respected poster here) once asked me "What would you do if you were not afraid?"

She's got to tackle her alcoholism if she truly wants to have this marriage. The choice is hers. All you need to do is tell her what you need, and let her make her choice.


You are correct. As long as she chooses to self-medicate (be it booze, affairs, whatever) she will be unable to effectively work on your marriage. Do you think she understands that on some level?


Why would you schedule your appointment based on what Dr Harley says? Why not schedule it anyway and invite your wife to sit in if she wants to?

Part of Plan A (I'll admit I'm stretching it a bit here) is to plan things and invite your wife along. Primarily that means family and/or couple activities, but I could see applying that to counseling as well. I don't know that Jennifer will be able to do much for your marriage at this point, but maybe she could get your wife to thinking on what she needs to do if she truly wants this marriage.


That's about all anyone can do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> As LovingAnyway (another poster her) keeps telling me, don't jump into the future. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

ML is correct here. Another possible benefit of backing of Plan A for a while is that your wife has seen (and said as much) the changes you are making.

If you pull back some now, she may believe she is going to lose you and start to pursue you.

This is not license to LB, by the way. Be the person you are becoming - just stop bending over backwards to meet her needs and enable her addiction.

The weekend update.

W insisted talking about our conversation on what I wanted her to do to make me feel better. This came about due to her not remembering, due to muscle relaxers what was discussed two nights previous.

I again issued my boundaries and told her without NC established firmly, that I would begin to stop working on the M. Didn't give her a timeline. Also told W the same condition regarding her drinking.

She understands and agrees with the drinking condition. The work situation she stated she needed some time to think about.

Saturday went fine. No talk as we have my D this weekend anyway. W did make a comment about her job while driving about " since I didn't want her to work there".

I let it go until we had a R talk this morning. Regarding her comment, I told her not to leave her job because of anything I said. I said resentment would be the only result. I told her only to leave job if she were leaving because she felt it was the right thing to do for our M and my feelings.

Her family had yet another crisis do to W father's drinking and pills last night. W feels guilty she isn't there to support her mother as usual. Leaning hard to return but not she it's for family. More this 'to find herself'.

To her I would understand if she needed to go find out who she is (her line) with her family under a few conditions.

We are still married and she must act like it.(I leave this list to your imagination). She must work while there and support our household which is set up for two earners. Neither one would file for a D without consulting the other. I told her we would need to go ahead and list the house if she left.

W stated she didn't want to file for a D. She just needs time to fine out if she is happier there and by herself. I validated the by herself part and told her that she was still going to be testing if she wanted to be M or not.

W stated she understood why I felt as I did about NC. Even tried to say she could move 5 miles away to an apartment to "find herself". I told her if that was her decision, that ther would be no further contact with me as long as she was at that job and not in alchohol treatment. She then didn't care for that option. But that option didn't have anything to do with being near her family.

I'm not sure what this 'find herself' is. I know that is normal WS speak, but I believe she really thinks she is confused about what she wants and the OM isn't in her thinking.

Should I go dark if she decides to return to Missouri to 'find herself with family'? She would have NC if she left and I could find out from her mother if she continues to drink with no treatment. However, to me this is a test outside the M since we won't be together.

On the other hand, we have to sell house, move her 8 hours away, and with only some plan A feelings, no intimate ones, what does she have to compare with?

If she refuses to quit drinking and respect your feelings about no contact, moving home might be the best option. You could then go into Plan B. It seems to me, SS, that your marriage is about item #200 on her priority list and she could not care less about doing the slightest thing to protect it. She is what Dr. Harley calls a "FREELOADER," someone who is just along for the free ride but never willing to do anything to fix up the place and who just moves on when something better comes along.

I will be interested to hear what Dr. Harley thinks about your situation. Please tell him about her offer to move away to "find herself." Important things he needs to know are:

1. her refusal to make a "sacrifice" and end contact with the OM

2. her drinking and dope problem

3. her desire to move away to "find herself"

One of our FWS' here once told another WS that if she wanted to "find herself" she should "pull her head out of her [censored]." hahahahaaa <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This is why I think, with HB, that she is still in the fog.

I tell W yesterday not to leave her job unless it's her willing to do so for our M and my feelings. W felt it was an ultimatum, even though I thought I was careful to present it as anything but.

Generally what we speak about tends to lead me to believe W is thinking and wanting to fix our M.

We ate at the dinner table last night talking about good times and family. Then sat arm in arem and watched a romatic movie, The Exorcist. Her favorite.

W has been telling me she doesn't believe actions come before feelings. W is left wondering if we don''t have "it" now, we can't get it back.

W emails me this morning and said she had a great weekend and couldn't believe how much her feelings and thoughts changed just from us eating accross from each other at the dinner table. That she is going to finish the Mort Fertel CD's about specific actions to take to fall back in love.

She says no matter what the books or CD's say its going to be what each of us puts into the future that will make a difference.

Jeeze. Each day is a new day and even though one day may be two steps back, as long as we are generally moving forward, maybe by the time we hit dday plus 6 months she will snap out.

I think she moves towards us when I agree with her need to be apart and maybe begin to move on. At least it seems when I am less there for her, she responds move toward the M.

Think if W moves out either here or to her family, it will have to be dark. I now think her motives for that wouldn't be as much for family as to "test" being on her own and see if she missed anything when younger.
Guess I hope to get some plan/insight from Doc Harley today.

Hi SS -


How she views it is her choice and her responsibility. In my opinion, an ulitmatum is do this or else - there's no expression of a reason why, or any love. What you're telling her is that to remain in the marriage, you need these things from her. (I know you know this, just giving you some encouragement).


The Excorist as a romantic movie? Surely you jest <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Sounds pretty positive to me. Most likely, she's going to have to experience the actions lead to feelings to truly understand it. The fact that she's willing to take those actions, in spite of her doubts, is great - as long as she follows through.

And yes, she hit the nail on the head. It's what both of you do that will make theh difference. The books, seminars, videos, counseling - those are all guides. None of them work if you don't put what they teach you into action.


Rollercoaster. That's the word you're looking for <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Recovery is a rollercoaster. It goes up and down - yes, you have the right mindset: As long as the overall progression is upward, you're on the right path.

One word of caution - beware the 6 month mark within recovery. From what I've read here (though I haven't experienced it yet since we haven't been in a real recovery) is that around 6 months the anger, pain and hurt the BS has been repressing tends to raise it's ugly head. So be on the look out for that.


I refer you to what I said earlier in regards to ML's post. It's an interesting dynamic, and not only Harley has noticed it. Others have too. Dr. Dobson's book "Love Must Be Tough" uses this as a central theme. He advises that when infedilit strikes, the BS should take immediate action to both initiate conflict, and to open the cage door. Pull back from the WS and let them do what they want. More often than not, it will cause the WS to rethink their actions.

More than one FWS on these boards has said that realizing their BS was more than willing to - indeed, able to - move on without them was a key component in getting them back into the marriage.


If she leaves, yes, go very, very dark. My wife has talked about separation (both before and after the A). It's a very common statement from WS.

You can't stop her from leaving. However, when she brings it up, I would not give it much, if any, discussion time. Simply tell her that you will not force her to stay in this marriage. Also let her know that you do marriage - you don't do separation/divorce. If she wants to talk formal separation (i.e., LSA) or divorce, your lawyers will deal with that. You deal only with marriage.

I think you're doing well, SS, and I think your W is showing a good deal of promise. Remember, it's the actions that count, not the words (even when those words hurt or disappoint you). Stay the course, and keep doing what you know to be right.

Let us know what Dr. Harley says. We're here for you, and your marriage.

Thanks again for the support.

Dr. Harley said in my situation to back off just a bit on the alchohol and was doing just fine w/boundary on NC.

W made two comments yesterday that she would have to quit. I like your comment HB about letting W view the NC boundary how she will if my boundary is stated as I have.

I have learned to not take the positive statments made by W to heart. I need to improve on doing the same with the negative ones.

Didn't get to make a comment on the moving out to find herself. Think W just struggles daily to deal with being in a R in our current predicament and with her guilt.

Doc H said I was on right path and to learn from what OM was providing and make sure I provided it from now on.

More difficult with drinking, but I got to wait until W had "those" feelings again to engage more on it. For now, just not to enable it.

Damn HB, wish I could get TO recovery. That is a big concern. That today she says she knows she needs to quit(NC) and tomorrow, he(me) won't make me enforce it.

Sounds as though Dobson's book may help me staying on the right path at the start here.

My W is spending much time telling me how her feelings have changed in the last three months since dday. All positives and now she knows she doesn't want to move back to her family in Missouri.

Doesn't want to separate. Wants to keep spending all of our time together. Loves the changes in me. Loves our family. Wants to find True Love and know it takes effort and we need to learn new ways to grow and get there. Wants intimacy feelings back and hopes I will wait for her to get them.

All those words sound great. Problem is no action.

Wants to try to just control drinking. I'm not pushing per Dr. Harley, but not enabling either. Hoping with more time and more feeling, she will be more enlightned about the help she needs.

W now is backing off quitting her job. Says she guesses she will have to if I make her. Dr. Harley told me not to worry if she resents me "making" her quit. Said that will go away when she feels great about us which can't happen for me without NC. W still eager about blocking email and company phone lines and even sending NC letter, but says she hasn't seen him in two months and even though they work in the same factory/warehouse complex, there doesn't need to be contact.

I simply state I understand and whether the A would restart or not didn't affect me feelings of betrayal and doubt while she is there, as well as her commitment level to the M.

This the right path on my two boundaries?

What did Dr. Harley tell you exactly about her working with the OM?

Dr. Harley said in his opinion there could be no contact. W is saying they work for different companies and in different areas of a large warehouse. That theere has been no contact or need for contact for around 2 months. That she is willing to have her company intercede to block email and calls and contact.

My concern is this is the same enviroment that the A occured in, although with no obvious attempt NOT to have contact. W focused on "best job she ever has had" and just doesn't understand why I have issues if she never has contact again. Again words are cheap.

I think since she is feeling so much better about 'us' I might just not set a date for her leaving yet. Just continue to let her know how much it hurts and is likely to affect my ability to ever trust of fully commit. If she keeps feeling more and gets the intimacy back, is it more likely she will leave there if I let her know in no uncertain terms that is something I need?

SS, I think she needs to understand this a deal breaker for you. And it really should be. The reason is because in order for her to fall in love with you again, she has to be removed from the OM. Saying that they work in seperate parts of the warehouse won't cut it. Recovery is impossible as long as they are working together.

That is like the alcoholic who continues to go to the bar every day and when the inevitable weak moment hits, all she has to do is reach out and grab that drink. It is a test of will power [which doesn't exist] that only a fool would take. And it DISTURBS me VERY MUCH that she does not understand how dangerous this is, SS.

I am the biggest corner cutter in the world, but I am telling you this is not a corner I would dare cut. And it is because I seen the numerous examples around here over the years of folks who DID cut corners in this area. They have had to endure 4,5,10 year on again, off again affairs. Their WS' are in a state of perpetual withdrawal while the BS dies a death of thousand cuts with every new discovery of contact. That, to me, would be a ****** of a way to live. I would choose divorce over that.

Has the blocking of e-mails and phone lines actually occurred yet? I would still send tha NC letter even though there is NC (according to her). The red flag here is that she says all this good stuff, yet no intimacy, and doesn't want to quit her job. Very suspicious. Have you pressed the point that it was her choice to engage in an affair while enjoying the "best job she's ever had"? There are always consequences to bad behavior. I agree with what Mel says.

Hello All.

Sit over last week hasn't seen much happening.

W for the first time admits she can't stop drinking on her own. Still rolls her eyes at AA and is asking me to help by limiting her funds. I don't think I should be involved.
Am I wrong?

W is stating she is going to leave job and has asked me to help her find another job. Again is this something I should be involved in?

W wrote a 3 sentence NC letter. Only W wouldn't seek contact and she didn't want OM to contact her. She would seek his supervisor if he approached her. W gave it to me to review. I want something regarding the selfishness of the affair and that she is going to put all effort into our M. Is this asking too much?

Does any of this matter is she isn't getting treatment for her addiction?

W is fragile now and I'm afraid of overloading her with expectations all at once, but it seems she is wanting me to do alot of this. Our R has been like that for 4 or 5 years and is one of the areas she was unhappy about. Dr. Harley told me on the radio to let her control half the M and I don't want to be her crutch in too much.

W mentioned last night that we needed to make time for SF. WOW. We haven't talked about it much and it doesn't "feel" like her emothions for intimacy have changed much. Is this something to pursue? I am more than ready, but if she still feels as though I'm her brother, it wouldn't mean much to me.

Oh heck no! That will put you in the position of jailor and she will just rebel against you the first time you won't give her some money for booze. Which she will want in a few days here.

Just keep pushing AA. Find some Alanon meetings to go to and then bring her a list of AA meetings. When she rolls her eyes at AA, tell her "those people are sober, dear, you are not." Leave it at that.

Then wait until her next bad drunk and spring an ultimatum on her in the morning when whe is sick, hung over and remorseful. Tell her AA or the highway, and I bet she will go. I know I did, and I have been sober 21 years! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hello Mel.

She has mentioned going to a 10 day treatment place but isn't the outpatient part of that AA anyway? One I'm sure I would have to find.

Would a 10 day treatment help her get past withdraw? Again seems like she is leaning heavily on me to take her through something she isn't really dedicated too.

SS, that will work! AA doesn't own or operate any treatment facilities but we do visit them to hold meetings and sponsor the clients. Just check out the 10 day treatment place and make sure they refer them to AA. If they don't, they probably aren't legitimate.

Going into a treatment facility is a good start, so I would be all over that.

How much of this, the NC letter, finding her a new job, and alchohol treatment should I do?

I don't want to be held to blame for her not getting the perfect job, not getting treatment she wants, or enflaming the NC letter especially given her past control issues with me.