I would surely help her with all that if you can. Don't get the job for her, but help her find options. Can she quit her job now?

As far as treatment goes, though, I would not hide her money for her, but I would get the name of the treatment center and, with her, set up the arrangements. An alcoholic is notorious for TALKING about doing things and never following through. So, don't just hand papers to her. Walk her to the starting gate as much as can.

Mel, depending on the length of time necessary to acquire a new job, it could be a financial burden on us. She is still willing to meet with her boss to block email and phone access. At least she was when we discussed last week.

Out of the blue yesterday was a day W needed time to herself so my D and I just kept distance most of the day. This morning was more of the same. Rollercoasters away I guess.

I will check with the folks at Alanon tonight about treatment centers. Hope to get one covered under insurance.

As you mention, alcoholics talk a good game. My W is an expert. We will see what she will actually follow through on.

What is THIS ABOUT?? This sounds like an alcoholic isolation tactic. What is going on here?

Well, we had a very nice day and night on Saturday.

W slept in a little late on Sunday while I took care of my D. W got up and ate a breakfast I fixed for all of us. Sat in her recliner for 1 hour and just said her anxiety was killing her. Everything around her closing in. I put distance til after lunch. Then took D shopping for 2-1/2 hours. W called on my return and said she was tired and going to lay down for a while. Hour later she was up and coloring her hair. Their were two wine coolers in the fridge. She had one. We made dinner together and she said she was fine. She got a shower. We fell asleep arm in arm watching a movie.

This morning distant again.

She wasn't drinking yesterday, other than the one cooler, but may have done a muscle relaxer or three to fall asleep.

Sometimes hard to tell when its alcohol, pills, depression, anxiety, or fog.

Calls for the first time a moment ago(unusual as she normal emails me 6 to 8 times a day, none yet) and just asked how I was doing. Also said maybe we can go to bed early tonight for SF. We haven't made love since August(dday in early October) as she hasn't felt "that way" about me.

Not sure whether this is her testing her feelings or what.

She is isolating, which is not a good sign and should not be accommodated. She may also have a stash of drugs and/or alcohol that you don't know about. The wine coolers in the frig could be a STAGE to demonstrate to you that she "just had one" so you will think she is "cutting back." If an alcoholic just "has one" it is for purposes of SHOW only.

SS, I would stop accommodating her isolation tactics and stop walking around on egg shells. Let her know that this is a family and she is part of it. You and DD are not going to disappear for her so she can be alone. She needs to adjust to family life, not the other way around. Instead of your family adjusting to the dysfunctional WHIMS of a selfish, self centered alcoholic.


Yes, she WAS drinking! You probably know about 1/10th of what she is really consuming. Alcoholics always LIE about how much they are drinking. Have you searched your house for booze or pills? It sounds like she is also supplementing her addiction with pills.

Know of all of her hiding spots. Usually takes me less than 10 minutes or so to find any new ones.

W has been very tired and going to bed early lately. She isn't showing her normal "drinking" signs during this time. Think she is medicating herself.

She has always needed a little alone time and one of her decisions is whether she would be happier living alone. She has told me she decided on us, but who knows.

W has been verifiably candid in the quantity she consumes and her mental state while drinking, after the fact. W knows she needs help but had a lot of pride. She may be reaching out to me or sidelining me.

SS, please understand how dysfunctional this really is. She stayed because she needs you to take care of her. You are there for exploitation purposes. Alcoholics are VERY DEPENDENT on their enablers. but "giving her time alone" only enhances her feeling that she is not part of your family and contributes to her feeling of isolation. She is being REWARDED and APPEASED for being selfish and self centered.

I would not accommodate this. IF she needs "time alone" make her do the work, but don't you and your DD do the adjusting. SHE should be the one who goes off, not you. Tell her you will clear out a nice spot in the garage for her if she wants to "be alone," but you and DD are not going to change your schedules to accommodate her selfishness. You have a life to live too.


This is called switching addictions. She is probably tired because she is taking drugs.

SS, be careful here. It is impossible to meet the needs of an alcoholic and I fear you are trying to do that by being so accommodating to her mood swings. Rewarding an alcoholic for bad behavior is tantamount to handing them ammunition to use against you and does nothing to help them. Appeasement will get you nowhere.

Mel, can you give me advise on what to make of my M when my W "stayed" because of her addiction not her family?

If I read you right, my course is to hope my W will feel something without any of the normal plan A treatments while she decides to either fight her addiction then maybe our M and to also hope that I will still feel something whenever that happens. Is that about it.

I have detached many of my feelings from W's "control". I guess I see this headed to plan b and believe if we go there my M will be over.

SS, your wife will not feel anything until she dries out. That is why Harley states, very accurately, that it is impossible to meet the needs of an alcoholic. An alcoholic uses Plan A to EXPLOIT others, not to fall in love. She CAN'T FALL IN LOVE.

You are on the right track here, the only course correction I see is that you should back off of Plan A and stop accommodating her selfish isolationist tendencies. Push to get her into that 10 day treatment and encourage her to go to AA.

THEN, once she sobers up and her brain functions normalize, she will be ABLE to fall in love again.

Hi SS -


The question you need to ask yourself is "Do I want the marraige I have now?"

Plan B does not mean your marriage is over. It may seem like it, but it doesn't. It doesn't guarantee your marriage will recover, but it doesn't mean it's over either.

ML is giving you some solid advice - and it's advice based on personal experience, not some book or website article she read.

As long as your wife is drinking, or self-medicating, or whatever, she won't be able to participate in your marriage as a spouse should.

These addictions are also distractions. It's not just alcohol - it's anything that detracts from a person's ability and/or willigness to contribute 100% to a relationship.

My wife has spent, until very recently, the better part of year trying to distract herself from her A. Working outside the home, developing new hobbies, whatever.

That (IMO - ML please correct me if I'm wrong here) is no different than your W's drinking or self-medicating. They are all methods by which a person can avoid dealing with issues that, to be successful in marriage, must be dealt with.

It does sound like your wife is changing her perspectives, and working towards admitting things to herself that she doesn't want to. The trick here, for you, is to not enable her, but also to help her. I think ML is a great resource to help you navigate these treacherous shoal waters.

You are her husband - her partner in life. As such, you need to help her. But, at the same time, you need to let her own her actions and her choices. She, not you, needs to face her alcohlism and any other addictions. You can be there for her, you can support her, encourage her - but it has to come from her. You need to keep your boundaries in place - don't adjust them just because she's starting to come around.

Too many people (myself included) give into the WS at the first sign of a good action, thinking that they have turned the corner.

The only corner you need her to turn is the corner of your boundary. In this case, AA. If she wants to go into an outpatient (or even an inpatient) treatment program, great - but make sure they're partnered with AA, as ML mentioned.

As far as the NC letter. Yes, if you want her to include how selfish the affair was, then it needs to be there. The NC letter is, really, for you, the BS. It's a tangible sign that the WS is truly willing to work on their marriage. If it doesn't meet your requirements, she needs to do it again. I can't remember if you have SAA or not (if you do, there are examples of an NC letter in there). If you don't, you can find some examples here.

Regarding the job. Which do you value more? Your marriage, or your financial situation?

Financial situations can be weathered a lot better than affairs. In fact, there are many consequences to affairs - and one of them can be financial (i.e., loss of WS income for some period of time due to the necessity of NC). Unfortunately, choosing to have an A does, contrary to what the WS usually tell themselves, have effects on other people.

Hang in there, SS. I think things are going pretty good for you, all things considered.

P.S. If your wife wants SF, then go for it (I say). Even if the feelings aren't necessarily there. Remember what you've been telling her? Actions lead to feelings? (It sounds like you're not sure if you want SF right now either, so basically I'm saying practice what you preach <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

Hi SS -

Just checking in to see how things are going in your situation.

Have you been following the Boundaries thread? Lost of good information in there from some very smart posters.

Hello HB.

Been off for a few.

Well after W spent last week drinking every night, she finally called the insurance company get locations for 10 program or after work program. I already have the numbers for them, but she is the one who has to make the calls and get in. She has been all lip service to this point, so I will wait a bit to see if she follows through. Also she discovered AA online meetings and said she will start those.

The NC situation was made a little easier, at least in her mind. Her company changed OM to third shift. Now they will only be in the same factory as he gets off and she gets on.

All other issues, work phone, work e-mail, and physical contact have yet to be addressed by her other than lip service again. The NC letter W wrote was 1 sentence telling OM to not contact her at work or she would complain to his supervisor. I told my W I expect the letter to say more but she hasn't written anything else yet. W did say again on Friday, that if I find another job for her, she would quit.

I see both my boundaries being address by talk not action to this point.

I will not push to hard on the drinking, per DR. Harly, but the NC situation has got to be addressed.

I have been reading the boundaries thread, posted early on. That thread has taken off.

My W did finish her EN questionaire this weekend, but is still doing nothing but addressing herself and doing alot of taking. I'm worried that by the time she 'comes around', I may not have the feelings left. I probably need to tell her that, not as an ultimatum, but as a matter of fact.

Just received this e-mail. Still sounding an awful lot like me, me, me.

Just wanted to tell you that I had a really nice weekend with you. It was nice being aware of everything the whole time. I have missed out on so much time with you and Alley and our animals that I plan to make up for that in the future. I know some days will really suck but as long as I have you to hold me I know I will be just fine. I love you!

W is referring to the fact that she went Saturday and Sunday without drinking.

Hi SS -


Hopefully she'll follow through. As you know, she has to do this - you can't do it for her.


Easier for her in her mind, maybe - but I'm willing to guess not for you, right?


You've told her what you expect - now (as stated previously) it's up to her. I do find it interesting that she wants you to find her a new job...is she not able to do so herself?


If she won't address your boundaries by action, then you'll need to enforce consequences. Unfortunate, but true.

It is up to her to address her drinking, but don't drop that from your boundaries.


And she'll probably stay in taking mode for a bit, until she withdraws completely and comes out of the fog.

If I were you, I'd start giving thought to Plan B, just in case you need it. I'm not sure I'd reiterate my boundaries again, unless you feel she is operating under the impression that you'll wait forever.

If you start to lose your feelings for her completely, then I would strongly recommend Plan B, especially since you've been working Plan A for a couple of months now. To be honest, in my situation, I'm past the point for Plan B, but now there are things afoot (potentially) that will require me to find some reservoir somewhere to go forward. That's not a place I'd wish upon anyone (except mabye OM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).




I don't hear a lot of me, me, me there. I hear more acknowledgement that she's been missing out on things by her drinking. She's still reaching out to you (at least, in some ways, or that's what it sounds like to me). The important thing for you to remember is to own what is yours to own, and to not own her stuff.

If your wife is like mine, she's probably still having a hard time believing that you two can get there. You're probably a step or two ahead of her, so you might want to pause for a bit and catch your breath.

Are you still talking to Jennifer (individually or with your wife)? Keep her in the loop - she can guide you on this path much better than I can <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Good Morning HB.

Thanks tremendously for your motivation. Sorry your sitch is becoming more difficult.

I know this isn't going to help much but, the MB seems to be working for me and I am a cynic at heart. I know my sitch wasn't as bad as many and am fortunate W never left, but it sems as though the Harley's program works often. The timeline is different and the results are different, but the end result seems to be the same, a happier you.

My W and I had a very interesting conversation last night that she initiated.

She said she had some things come to her from our blow up on Friday night. Stating she now realized how much her A hurt me and us. She got a bit defensive about all of my mistakes in the M and then acknoledged her half in those errors as well (for the first time).

W said she didn't think I would care about the A at the time and to now know how much I did and do care for her means so much. That I didn't boot her or just give up on us means so much.

W then said I seemed desperate at times. I told her I could see how she might see that particularly early on. I said I was now stronger, more informed, and that though I wanted her in my life, I didn't need her there if our M wasn't what I wanted.

W then said she had talked to the insurance companies and would schedule her alcohol treatment today. W also said she would rewrite her NC letter and we could mail by the end of the week. W said we could meet with her boss anytime I wished to establish email and phone blocks and ensure OM ability to step foot in W end of the factory.

I told my W this was a great step and I was willing to see how her remaining at her job affected me.

W has been very affectionate and communicative last night and this morning.

I am hoping the corner has been turned and we can start recovery in the next few weeks if she follows through on what she said.

I know I am going to have to see the proof in action rather than words though.

Wishing you some signs of happiness in your sitch. I think about your struggles often and hope for the best.

Hi SS -


You're quite welcome. I've gotten a tremendous amount of support from people here, so I'm eager to repay what I've received.

I'm not sure if my situation is becoming more difficult, or if I'm just now realizing where my wife and I are at. We have started counseling with SH, so we'll see where it goes from here.



Anyone who has success - personal or marital - with the MB program is of immense help to others who are still dealing with the mess and fallout of affairs. Stories like yours, many of which are still ongoing, are a big boost to BS'. Never undersestimate the power of a post - many, many people lurk and rarerly or never post. You don't know who you might be encouraging, just by posting your situation <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You realize the value of MB - in the end, regardless of what happens in your marriage, you wind up being a better you. And many times, the marriage is recovered as well.


Progress is being made. I know my wife knows how much she hurt me. Unfortunately, I feel that she (at this point) doesn't really care. As the WS works their way out of the fog, they almost inevitably at some point realize the enormity of the damage they did to the BS. From what I've heard, it's not pretty. But it's also a necessary step (IMO) for recovery.


My wife said the exact same thing (well, that she didn't think I'd care if she had an A). It's all justification in their minds...they have to justify to save themselves from fully acknowledging the evil they chose to do.


Again, not an uncommon reaction in the BS (being needy, clingy, etc). It's also a sure fire way to drive the WS further away (if that's possible). Time again people have posted their stories about the sudden change in the WS when they realized they were going to lose the BS. That change can only be inspired if the BS is an attractive option. And needy and weepy ain't.

Stick to your guns...go for what you deserve. What you both, to be honest, deserve. The marriage you both want, where you're mutually happy and in love.


Excellent news. I hope she follows through on this - especially the alcohol treatment. Do stick to your boundaries - do not relax them now. There have been times (recently) where I had given up hope of my wife doing something that I wanted her to for our marriage, but then she suddenly would. The most recent is counseling...I basically told her what I required to continue to contribute and work on our marriage, and backed it up with a consultation with a lawyer....the next day she made the appointment.

I do want to point out that your boundaries should not be manipulative (which I believe you know). I took the steps I did because I honestly felt that MP was not going to make any moves. The fact that she did was a pleasant surprise.


Careful here...I sense some potential wavering in your boundaries. The potential for contact is a huge risk to recovery. The story of renewed contact after months or years even is repeated way too many times here.

NC is the [color:"red"]critical path[/color] for recovery. Miss on NC, and you'll miss on recovery sooner or later. Your wife needs to take extraordinary precautions to ensure NC is in place and remains that way for life. Please, do not relax this boundary.


Get NC (complete, full and for life) in place, and you will turn that corner. Without it, you will either spend your life looking over your shoulder and walking into walls, or getting a very nasty surprise down the road. I am not aware of any situation where contact (even work place contact) was maintained that did not come back to bite the couple down the road.


"Trust but verify." That was a watch phrase given to me by an olde gentlemen who did a lot of research in an area I was interested in (aviation history). Or, as MrsW put it, "Inspect what you expect." or something like that.

If her actions match her words, and you can verify that they do, you'll have a lot more peace of mind.


Thanks. I know that regardless of what happens I'll come out of this fine. I hope that SH can help both MP and I. At some point down the road, I hope to return to posting more freely about my situation here. In the meantime, if you're bored or curious, you know how to reach me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Keep up the good work, SS. You've come a long way in a short time, and have really grasped the MB principles. You're going to have good days and bad days, but it sounds like things are really coming together for you and your wife. Please keep us updated on how things go, and ask questions as you need to. And if you have a really bad day, come here to the forums to vent. Much better to vent here then on your wife <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hi SS -

You still around? How are things going?

Hi HB.

Still hangin alright.

Had a slightly contensious conversation with the W on Saturday after a Friday night comment about not wanting to stop drinking and no steps towrds respecting my boundary or feelings about the job.

W states that I'm beating her up with it. I actually don't bring up much of anything but she "sees" something wrong and asks until I give it up. "My boundaries about sharing my M with an active alcoholic and my W working in the same factory as OM were not flexible and that I wouldn't commit to our future together indefinatly.

W stated for me to come up to her work and see things for myself. I tried to explain what I was hoping to see or not see was that she had enough concern for my feelings that she would do whatever needed to regain my trust. We got nowhere.

W reiterated that she didn't want to stop drinking, but that she might change her mind when the Paxil kicked in. LOL W was out on Friday and Saturday morning.

Jennifer suggested I buy "Ungame" and couples cards. I did about a month ago and W for the first time suggested we play last night. Gave us an opportunity to say what we have a tendancy to assume the other knows.

The trust issue and beliefs on M and commitment were prevelant and honest.

She liked the use of this tool. Actually had SF for the first time in 7 months last night.

Unfortunatly, I am still left with the feeling that W is going to disregard my boundaries and I will have to plan for B time.

The reason Plan B likely would lead to D is we would have to put our house up for sale due to the extra household. I believe that selling our home would be W signal that our M is over and to Missouri she would go. A LSA dollar wise would likely make things very ugly for her.

I have done my best to explain that I expected our new M to be unlike the old one, but she doesn't seem to grasp that we can't revert to old ways.

W recognizes all of my changes(on EN questionaire actully had 3's on satifaction on 7 of 10, including 4 of top 5) and her lack of them but seems totally unwilling to do ANYTHING about it.

A very bad week indeed.

My W and I lost our 4 1/2 year old American bulldog. This pet and my W were extremely close. W alcohol issues immediately got worse towards the end of last week and into the weekend. On Saturday, her grief was bad enough that she swallowed 20 Lunesta. I didn't discover this until Sunday morning.

Upon W waking, groggey though she was, she told me to give her the numbers to the local hospitals as she wanted to check into detox.

After getting no response on Sunday, I was concerned she might change her mind by Monday morning. She didn't.

We made the arrangements with insurance and took her to the hospital yesterday morning. W also announced to me she wanted to get another job for herself and us. Fantastic.

We then spent 8 hours in the ER awaiting her approval to get admitted.

I knew after 7 hours when a police officer showed, something bad was going to happen.

My W had signed a voluntary admitance to get into detox and residential treatment. Due to the pills the day before, the ER doctor changed W status to involuntary.

W was escorted to the psych ward and her bags were searched.
All most all items were rejected. Heavy restrictions on visitation and privacy were all unknown to me until they had her locked up. My W was literally freaking as she finally decided to do something about her drinking and this happens.

She is in a ward with other patients that frighten her to death. W told me the only reason she was there was because of me.

W called me late last night out of her wits and alone. She hasn't called me at all today. I am worried to death.

The ER doc lied to me about the admitance and what unit she would be on and the hospital says there is nothing I can do, only the psychiatrist can move her to detox and out of that ward.

I have a huge fear this will significantly harm my W fragile mental state. Not that she doesn't need help, but this isn't what she needed right now.

I also believe my W will blame me for this. I don't have a clue what if anything can be done to get her out of there or anything else.

Anyone have any knowledge on this sitch?

W told me before I

New title for old thread

Hi SS -


You and your wife have my condolences. It's never easy to lose a pet. I'm lost a number myself during my life.


20? What's her normal dose? I'm not a medical expert (or even a lay person), but that sounds like an overdose.


This is good - her following through. It tells me that she might just finally be realizing that she needs some serious help.


Good again. Hopefully she'll follow through on this as well - but she needs to get her addiction(s) treated first.


If she hasn't hit rock-bottom now, she's got to be close. She has, intentionally or not, attempted to OD on perscription (I'm assuming they're perscription) medication. That would mark her, in my book, as potentially suicidal. I'm not surprised the doctor had her involuntarily admitted to the psych ward.


Blame shifting. She's there because she a) admitted that she needed help, and b) she attempted to OD. This is a result of her choices, not yours.


She might be restricted on when she can use a phone. Or she might now want to talk.

I know you are worried. Hang in there - if I were to guess, she's probably in the psych ward for observation purposes. Once they get a good idea on what's going on, they'll determine the best place to put her for treatment.


I would contact the hospital to see if they have a way of handling grievances. It sounds to me like you have a valid complaint (in that the ER doctor didn't tell you the truth). I can see why he wouldn't want to tell you in front of your wife, but he should have pulled you aside and told you what was going to happen, and what the next steps are.


Whatever damage this might do (and I believe it will be significantly less than you fear), it's nothing compared to the damage (emotionally and physically) that her drinking and drug abuse would do.


She may very well try. Doesn't mean you have to accept it. This is NOT your fault.

Ok...SS, take a deep breath and do your best to relax.

I grew up with a mother who fought depression all of her life, attempted suicide several times (eventually succeeded shortly after the birth of my daughter), and was in and out of mental health hospitals for the first 10 years of my life.

You need to get ahold of the admitting or attending psychatirist and get the details from him. What the plan is, what they're doing, where they intend to put her. If you have to, go to the hospital in person and talk to him.

Without that information, you're going to worry yourself to death.

View this whole situation as a step on your journey. Your goal is the restoration of your marriage.

The first thing that has to happen as recent events have proven, is that your wife must get help for her addictions. She needs counseling to help her discover what is driving her to drink and over-medicate, and to learn new coping skills, as her current ones are extremely self-destructive (and life-threatening).

Once that is in place and underway, you can proceed with changing jobs and recovering your marriage.

Remember, you cannot change your wife. Only she can. You need to be the strong one here. Stay strong and steady, for yourself and for her. Let her know that you are with her every step of the way (show her that you are there - actions count way more than words).

Here's what I'd like you to do:

1. Get in touch with the hospital and the psychatrist. Find out everything, and voice your concerns and questions. Fill in any blanks in her medical and life history that may be of use to the doctors.

2. Lean on your support group (friends, family, church, etc) for help during this time. It's going to be very hard at first, but if your wife will work with the doctors, it can be done. My mom eventually conquered her depression and had a good life, until a series of events derailed her at the end (my dad's death being the biggest).

Keep posting here. Let us know how things are going.

If you don't have a support group there for you, say so - we can brainstorm together how to get you one.

I know you're going out of your mind right now. Things can and will get better - it will just take time.

Hang in there, SS. You've been doing a great job so far - I have complete confidence in you.