Hopefully you saw mine, believer.

Mel,

I believe you are incorrectly determining Gods standard for forgiveness and ignoring all the scriptures on forgiveness. I know there are people you don't want to forgive and that is OK for you. But I don't believe that position is supported biblically.

Jesus didn't wait till we were good enough or pure enough or asked. He made the way Himself freely available to all who receive. Many do not receive but that is their choice. You are confusing reconcilliaton with forgiveness.

Yep I did. Guess we will have to agree to disagree. I have forgiven WH. He has done nothing to merit my forgiveness.

It's like that man (my higher power, whom I call Jesus), who has forgiven me.

I think this is EXACTLY right and exactly my point Mel.

In my view, we are to pray that the SINNER will find JESUS as you have, Believer, in order to gain forgiveness.

How can we FORGIVE someone who has not found the Lord?

How can we FORGIVE an active evildoer?

We can have love enough in our hearts to pray for their SALVATION...

The authors of BOLD LOVE stress that it is not LOVING to cheaply forgive..as that does not help the sinner..nor MANKIND..it's a selfish act which makes you feel better but the SINNER continues their WRONGDOING towards others because they have not repented or sought salvation...I strongly agree with them.

BigK, I don't think you understand the goal of biblical forgiveness.. The goal is to reconcile us with God and to reconcile us with our brother. God does not pass out cheap forgiveness to those who neither want or care for his forgiveness to make himself feel good. And nor should we.

The only way to do that is to REMOVE the sin, ie: repentence. Jesus does not pass out forgiveness to those who do not want it, or everyone would be forgiven. They are not. One must ACCEPT forgivenss in order to BE forgiven and even you admit this: "He made the way Himself freely available to all who receive. Many do not receive but that is their choice."

In other words, there must a forgiver and a willing FORGIVEE in order to be forgiven. The only alternative is to believe that everyone is forgiven and we know they are not. Again, forgiveness must be ACCEPTED in order to be forgiven.

This "blanket forgiveness" does not work and is not Biblical. In order to become a Christian one must repent and accept the gift of Jesus Christ. It takes SURRENDER to truly accept that gift. The Bible is very clear that repentence is a condition of salvation.

Here is God's standard of forgiveness for us: [note that repentance is very consistently mentioned]

Mark 1:4
And so John came, baptizing in the desert region and preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Luke 3:3
He went into all the country around the Jordan, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

Matthew 21:32
Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you. For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Matthew 11:20-21
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21"Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

Matthew 4:17
17From that time on Jesus began to preach, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near."

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
- Acts 2:38 NKJV



This is God's standard of forgiveness. He doesn't pass out cheap, unwarranted forgiveness. Jesus tells us "...If your brother sins, rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, forgive him (Luke 16:3-4). That is the standard he expects from us. I think to do otherwise is to cheapen the gift of forgiveness because it is only used to make ourselves feel better and not used as a GIFT to our brother to achieve reconciliation. There is really no other purpose if it is not reconciliation. And if everyone receives mass forgiveness whether they want it or not, then there would never be anyone in he11, and we know from reading the Bible that many will choose he11.

Hate to keep repeating myself but -

I have forgiven WH. He has done nothing to merit my forgiveness.

It's like that man (my higher power, whom I call Jesus), who has forgiven me.

Okay, so a new mantra: Be Prepared (oh, wait, that one's taken, darn!). So...Be Prepared to be Sexy (I think the Boy Scouts would be okay my slight modification, don't you?)

Come on, I didn't let the WHOLE interaction go by without a little flirting. You didn't see me working that peppermint stick, girlfriend! And I can't really flash him with the boys standing right there next to me. Seriously, though, I worry about the boys and their relationship (or lack thereof) with their dad. But again...perspective time. The BEST thing I can do for the boys is to get their dad back together with their mom so they have an intact family. So that's still got to be the number one priority. Just so we're clear: the man was so SQUIRMMING...I think a light touch was called for today. Too much might have put him too far on the defensive.

I called FIL and floated the idea of he and WH having the boys for New Year's Eve and then New Year's Day. Hey, even if I can't be a part of it, at least RT won't be either. FIL was going to propose the idea to WH, given that I had already planted the seed. We'll see....I usually come up with my better ideas in the morning. I think I need a good night's sleep...no pitter patter of feet above my head.

Should I push NYE hard? Insist? Is time with the kids a boundary issue that I need to enforce?

Also told FIL I'd like to have him over for dinner before he leaves for AZ...maybe Wednesday.

I do not believe that his parking there was in any way connected to seeing us. It was a fluke, but whose fluke? It's the 2x4 element to it that makes me BELIEVE there's something greater at work. No delusions of grandeur, but it's just one of those things...

LS

We, mankind (aka evildoers), hadn't found the Lord before His Son Jesus died on the cross to forgive us our sins.


Then how about we Forgive them (wrong doers) first without their request for forgiveness (similar to Jesus) so we can live without malice towards them, then we pray for their salvation after that. And maybe they'll request our forgiveness after our prayers.

Exactly. I don't see this as a loving act at all, but only as a feel good measure to make the giver feel holy moly. If the purpose is not to reconcile, then what else could the purpose be? A selfish gesture to make ourselves feel good. The purpose is intended to be exactly as God intended: reconcilation. And that cannot happen until we remove the sin and there are two willing parts.

well, believer, you are just more holy than the rest of us. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Did Jesus forgive you BEFORE you ever repented and asked? Is everyone, therefore, forgiven?

Mel - you know very well I do not believe that God forgives everyone. But he makes forgiveness available to all who receive Him. Jesus HAS indiscriminately offered forgiveness to ALL mankind. But not ALL mankind will accept it.

I also believe Scripture clearly shows we must forgive in order to be forgiven.

I am a great believer in repentance.

23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

See, you can abandon your malice without going through the pretense of forgiveness, that is really a seperate issue altogether. That being said, I would pray for them and always be WILLING to forgive them if they asked.

I will always feel anger at injustice, though. I think that is very biblical to feel righteous anger at injustice.

Just a thought, but maybe we should all take this "Forgiveness" discussion onto its own thread.

I think Sis needs this thread to get back her Plan A execution business.

Jo

From Matthew 6

So, do you think that the Holy Spirit convicts us differently? Believer and I both seem to be strongly convicted to forgive. Mimi and Mel do not.

We are not telling you you have to forgive.

You seem to be telling me that what is going on in my heart between me and the Holy Spirit (which I firmly believe is a conviction of the Holy Spirit) is wrong.

Is it hurting you if I forgive?

I can tell you this, If I live with a spirit of unforgivenss, I can not have a right relationship with God. That hurts me. It doesn't hurt you if I don't have a right relationship with him.

We can probably find just as many books, articles etc to take each side. We can sit here and post them all night- but what it boils down to is each of us must do what God has convicted us to do.

And this is exactly what I am saying. He offers it to everyone, but ONE MUST ACCEPT IN ORDER TO BE FORGIVEN. It is the SAME with our brothers. That is how scripture shows us to forgive.

Mark 11

Thanks, Jo.

So....